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Nocturus wrote:
I actually like the idea of factions having abilities that other factions don't. Thats what needs to happen to keep armies unique and make people WANT to play more than one faction. I remember when Lance was a rule only on eldar weapons. It made their weaponry unique, now it gets spread around to other groups. When Tau came out, they were the only group with Jet Pack units, that was their unique trait. The problem is the lack of specilization in factions. Right now the only one that has any truly unique rules, that I can think of, is Mechanus has several new rules that are unique to their weapons in 40k, and a few new rules unique to some of their faction members.

What the problem is right now is the uniqueness of several factions is completly gone IMO.

You DO realize that is why our faction gets so much gak? The Tau are unique in that they seem to rely almost exclusively on high quality shooting, all of our abilities revolve around that as well. Markerlight abilities like Ignore Cover only reinforce that, but it is the one thing that people are always on about removing.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wraithknight.

Enough said.

Grav weapons or lascannons work fine. Seriously people could kill 2 Wraithlords in a turn back in 3rd ed and the game is way heavier on guns now.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wraithknight.

Enough said.

Grav weapons or lascannons work fine. Seriously people could kill 2 Wraithlords in a turn back in 3rd ed and the game is way heavier on guns now.

Yes, because every army out there is Marines.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wraithknight.

Enough said.

Grav weapons or lascannons work fine. Seriously people could kill 2 Wraithlords in a turn back in 3rd ed and the game is way heavier on guns now.

Yes, because every army out there is Marines.

50% of the armies are. Plus there is allies, and really if you cant drop one you should probably reassess your army. Same goes with imperial knights. Most of my current armies can drop 2 a turn.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wraithknight.

Enough said.

Grav weapons or lascannons work fine. Seriously people could kill 2 Wraithlords in a turn back in 3rd ed and the game is way heavier on guns now.

Yes, because every army out there is Marines.

50% of the armies are. Plus there is allies, and really if you cant drop one you should probably reassess your army. Same goes with imperial knights. Most of my current armies can drop 2 a turn.

I have made many an attempt at tailoring to kill armour, and I barely manage a rhino per turn. How. The feth.

Warp dust my friend....warp dust

 Ravenous D wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Wraithknight.

Enough said.

Grav weapons or lascannons work fine. Seriously people could kill 2 Wraithlords in a turn back in 3rd ed and the game is way heavier on guns now.

Yes, because every army out there is Marines.

50% of the armies are. Plus there is allies, and really if you cant drop one you should probably reassess your army. Same goes with imperial knights. Most of my current armies can drop 2 a turn.

And those 50% of the armies share most of their unit entries, give or take a few special rules. So they actually make up less than 25% of the number of unique units out there.

Necrons

Tau

Space marines

Eldar

Dark Angels

Rerollable Jink saves

Rerollable 2+/2++ saves

Formations

Invisibility

Invisibility

Invisibility

Psychic powers in general

Did I mention Invisibility?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Did I mention Invisibility?

Not nearly enough times.

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Did I mention Invisibility?

Not nearly enough times.

I have a personal hatred of it. My opponent once placed it on a squadron of Vindicators. I was snapshooting them but I couldnt target the Infantry behind them as they still blocked line of sight. Fortunately the Librarian Conclave suffered a terminal existence failure next turn courtesy of a Thunderer and a Leman Russ Battle Tank so al was well and all that.

Invisibility is bad enough but casting it on squadrons of vehicles is just evil...

I don't mind psychic defense too much. In casual games, no one dares use a good invis combo because they aren't jerks. In competitive, I ALWAYS have my culexus at hand.

 Johnnytorrance wrote:
Not one thing in particular but the mere fact that some factions have abilities that other factions don't.

[...]

Either allow it to happen across the board or removing it.

"Make everything the same." ... Yeah 'cause that wouldn't be dull and boring or anything.

13,000 points of Necron warriors is more than evil

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
13,000 points of Necron warriors is more than evil

id rather take 13000 points of death strike missiles.

 Desubot wrote:

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
13,000 points of Necron warriors is more than evil

id rather take 13000 points of death strike missiles.

I'd rather take 13000 points of tesseract vaults

 Selym wrote:


I have made many an attempt at tailoring to kill armour, and I barely manage a rhino per turn. How. The feth.

Meanwhile Tau broadsides with the buffmander can reliably drop 4 a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaPino wrote:


And those 50% of the armies share most of their unit entries, give or take a few special rules. So they actually make up less than 25% of the number of unique units out there.

Plus there is cult mechanicus with their Centurion and Haywire troops so there isn't a lot of sympathy there.

And there is allies of convenience, there is no excuse why you cant kill a wraithknight easily other than your own self made, self imposed restrictions.

Reanimation protocol working on instant death and a possiblity of re-roll. It's like facing an army of Space Marine captains with Iron Halos.

Most of the guys at the club are struggling to even get a draw versus the necron player. I hear the same thing all the time. The army does not stay down. The guy usually finishes the games having lost less than 25% of his army.

I had to start resorting to D-Weapons (which I hate having to do) just to have a chance. It lead me to the following conclusion: Screw it....Screw it all. The gloves came off that day and I am not putting them back on. I will field Wraithknights, psykers, flyers with D-Weapons and stop feeling bad about it.

TLTR: I used to be a fluffy laid-back player. Necrons turned me into a remorseless vindinctive Eldar player.

"Meanwhile Tau broadsides with the buffmander can reliably drop 4 a turn."

How? They can kill a maximum of three...

SGTPozy wrote:
"Meanwhile Tau broadsides with the buffmander can reliably drop 4 a turn."

How? They can kill a maximum of three...

I'm guessing Commander with Drone Controller, ignores cover, Twin-linked and Tank hunter upgrades attached to a unit of 3 XV88s with target locks and 2 missile drones each.

So each XV88 shoots at a separate Rhino and the Missile Drones all shoot at the same one which is separate to the XV88 targets.

1 XV88 with missile pods = 4 shots = 3 hits.

S7 vs AV11 = 4+ (0.5 probability) to strip a hull point. With Vehicle Hunters they can re-roll a failed pen roll so the end probability of stripping a hull point is 0.75 per hit.
3 hits = 3*0.75 = 2.25 Hull Points.

SMS = 4 shots = 3 hits.
S5 vs AV11 = 6 to glance (1/6 probability). So 3 hits = 0.5 Hull point

2.25+0.5 = 2.75 Hull Points. That rounds up to 3 and a wrecked Rhino. So it is possible for a Missileside to wreck a Rhino.

The 6 drones will be BS5, twin-linked and tank hunters thanks to drone controller.
So 12 shots, hitting on 2+ and re-rolling misses. Initial rolls = 10 hits.
S7 vs AV11 again so that's 10*0.75 = 7.5 Hull Points (so, one very dead Rhino before we even take into account the 2 misses that can be re-rolled)

So a unit of XV88s with Missile Drones and buffmander can kill 4 Rhinos in one turn.

The Commander+Missileside unit also costs 417 points at the minimum (Commander has no Drones of their own or guns, just the upgrades which give the special rules) compared to the 4 Rhinos 140, so they should be able to do that kind of damage.

So that isn't just the Buffmander and Broadsides then, it's also drones

SGTPozy wrote:
So that isn't just the Buffmander and Broadsides then, it's also drones

The Missile Drones are part of the Broadside unit but yes.

SGTPozy wrote:
"Meanwhile Tau broadsides with the buffmander can reliably drop 4 a turn."

How? They can kill a maximum of three...

Missile drones, its pretty much auto take with broadsides.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Reanimation protocol working on instant death and a possiblity of re-roll. It's like facing an army of Space Marine captains with Iron Halos.

Most of the guys at the club are struggling to even get a draw versus the necron player. I hear the same thing all the time. The army does not stay down. The guy usually finishes the games having lost less than 25% of his army.

I had to start resorting to D-Weapons (which I hate having to do) just to have a chance. It lead me to the following conclusion: Screw it....Screw it all. The gloves came off that day and I am not putting them back on. I will field Wraithknights, psykers, flyers with D-Weapons and stop feeling bad about it.

TLTR: I used to be a fluffy laid-back player. Necrons turned me into a remorseless vindinctive Eldar player.

Just to be clear "Reanimation protocol working on instant death and a possibility of re-roll" is not the problem. If anything, it should be that way. What you're having trouble with is the Decurion. Tell him to not use it, and you're golden.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaPino wrote:


And those 50% of the armies share most of their unit entries, give or take a few special rules. So they actually make up less than 25% of the number of unique units out there.

Plus there is cult mechanicus with their Centurion and Haywire troops so there isn't a lot of sympathy there.

And there is allies of convenience, there is no excuse why you cant kill a wraithknight easily other than your own self made, self imposed restrictions.

So your arguement boils down to: buy another army.

Well blimey, why didn't I think of that. Next time I crush someone with a highly competitive list, I'll just tell him to feth off because he should have bought a spass muhrine invisible centurion deathstar instead of CSM. That'll teach him for not buying a flavour of the month army every time it gets released.

Are you seriously implying that instead of playing the army they want, people should just buy other armies to have a reasonable chance at dealing with certain things? Give me a fething break. Wanting to play one army instead of multiple is not an unreasonable thing to ask. I would not want to buy daemons in order to not lose when I want to put CSM on the table. Same goes for DE and Eldar.
Sounds like you're more interested in WAAC if that is what you're suggesting.

Your arguement is as solid as helium. You claim that if 50% of the armies can easily deal with something, the thing isn't a problem in the grand scheme of things. well ALL those armies share 1 single trait, a weapon (2 in this instance) that other armies simply don't get. The only non IoM army that has a lascannon is CSM and they've got a grand total of 4 units that can reliably use it, all of which share the HS slot.

So, while lasscannons and grav guns are a decent way of dealing with wraithknights, that does not invalidate the fact that a lot of people genuinely have a hard time dealing with those things. Because those solutions are not open to everyone.

A Town Called Malus,
The Drone Controller does not work on Missile Drones.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Invisibility is probably the most OP thing. It pretty much wins games without effort

shyzo wrote:
Chapter Master Smashf*cker with in a Bike Command Squad with lucky rolls on Warlord Traits and Psychic Powers. T5, IWND, 2+/2++/2+ FNP and 4 wounds make him literally immortal.

Well not literally. 1 wraithcannon rolls a 6 to wound and its gone. D doesn't give a gak about eternal warrior, fnp or invuls.

That's actually why I occasionally take a squad of wraithguard, its the only real counter to high T high save armies. I fight thunderwolf/deathwing knight spam frequently and pre 7th it could easily take 2000+ points in shooting to bring down belial with 10 deathwing knights and a chaplain and it was even harder if I couldn't lower his armor save to 3+ with psychic powers. I wont say that eldar aren't op, but they got some much needed hard counters to obnoxious deathstars that people can tend to abuse.

JinxDragon wrote:
A Town Called Malus,
The Drone Controller does not work on Missile Drones.

Nope it does not. Oops

Never use a buffmander or Missile Drones myself so I forgot.

Well, that'll cut the damage by a bit but not enough to affect the outcome, I imagine.

Redseer wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Invisibility is probably the most OP thing. It pretty much wins games without effort

shyzo wrote:
Chapter Master Smashf*cker with in a Bike Command Squad with lucky rolls on Warlord Traits and Psychic Powers. T5, IWND, 2+/2++/2+ FNP and 4 wounds make him literally immortal.

Well not literally. 1 wraithcannon rolls a 6 to wound and its gone. D doesn't give a gak about eternal warrior, fnp or invuls.

That's actually why I occasionally take a squad of wraithguard, its the only real counter to high T high save armies. I fight thunderwolf/deathwing knight spam frequently and pre 7th it could easily take 2000+ points in shooting to bring down belial with 10 deathwing knights and a chaplain and it was even harder if I couldn't lower his armor save to 3+ with psychic powers. I wont say that eldar aren't op, but they got some much needed hard counters to obnoxious deathstars that people can tend to abuse.

But don't wraitghguard get a -1 so you're never able to get a result of 6 on the Destroyer table?

Only the flamer iteration.