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 CrownAxe wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.

One of the most broken units in the game is not a good comparison of how bad a model is

also there have been times of threads about how many weapons a GC can shoot and everyone keeps saying it's only 2 weapons, so really this thing has a lot of guns it's not going to get to fire every turn.

On second thought, the new suit isn't that bad. It has a lot of good shooting, good durability and will probably get some additionally boosts to it's power. All for a reasonable price.

What a piece of gak.

Seriously.

Hello Forgeworld. Here I come.

Sorry about the 4+ FNP -- too many games against Decurion...

Dman137 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.

One of the most broken units in the game is not a good comparison of how bad a model is

also there have been times of threads about how many weapons a GC can shoot and everyone keeps saying it's only 2 weapons, so really this thing has a lot of guns it's not going to get to fire every turn.

Even if you do limit GCs to only two weapons (IMO i think raw is they can fire all of them) it only has two main weapons (whichever pulse weapon it takes and the rocket system) so the 2 weapon limit barely matters.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't get it. That's a lot of firepower for 360 points.

Oh wait now I see it. S6 T6 LD8 on such a large creature. Ouch. Scatterbikes will mulch this thing.

Really?

Tau super suit is T6 W8 Sv3+ GC FNP (5+).
Eldar Scatbikes are BS4 S6 Assault 4.

- 108 shots (BS4)
- 27 SL fired (Assault 4)

Point taken.

No biggie. It turns out that fixing FNP to the correct 5+ makes it a wash between the two. If the Tau suit is only as good as the same points as a cloud of "broken" Scatbikes, then the Tau suit can't be bad, right?

The real question is whether the Tau not-Knight can be considered roughly balanced against the Wraithknight, Imperial Knight and Ork Stompa. If so, it's fine.

Dman137 wrote:
WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.

Fantastic. It dies instantly to the most eldarded units in the game-like everything that's actually balanced.

This does not indicate a problem with the tau.

It highlights a problem with the Eldar.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
People just forget that this can take support systems. For all we know you could strap a shield generator for a 4++ on this and then add happily EWO and skyfire. Then pin its legs down and shoot 8d6 missiles at the opponent flyer. Of and don't get me started on what is about to happen if a drop pod army "comes in to kill this thing in a single turn".

I can see this as a 360 pts of artillery powerhouse or a 420+ pts of sick anti-everything.

And for the happy scatterbike fans. Who said the Eldar player will get the first turn? because if you don't, then there'll be no tomorrow.

You're kidding right? Sure this thing is balanced and priced right, doesn't change the fat for those points it sucks compared to other units you could take and is taken down way to easily to boot. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]

the_scotsman wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.

Fantastic. It dies instantly to the most eldarded units in the game-like everything that's actually balanced.

This does not indicate a problem with the tau.

It highlights a problem with the Eldar.

Eldar who spent 295 + 100 + 270 points to drop a 360-point model in one turn?

I fail to see any problem with the Eldar if they're basically spending 2x the points to kill that Tau suit.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
WK shoots it takes off 3 wounds in one round (that's being generous) then a unit of 10 scattbikes with guide take care of the rest of the wounds.

Fantastic. It dies instantly to the most eldarded units in the game-like everything that's actually balanced.

This does not indicate a problem with the tau.

It highlights a problem with the Eldar.

Let alone the fact that hes still talking about about 600-700 pts of bikes and wraithknights needed to take out a single 360 pt suit. Someone doesn't understand the concept of point efficiency, but what do you expect from someone who plays a point and click army like Eldar.

Why does everyone point out grav weapons as wrecking this thing, then say it should have 2+ save? That would make it EASIER to kill it with grav.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Why does everyone point out grav weapons as wrecking this thing, then say it should have 2+ save? That would make it EASIER to kill it with grav.

Because, in general, grav weapons have good rate of fire and with only a FNP save will get mulched pretty easy even with 8 wounds. A single grav centurion squad with the dev doctrine in a pod has a good chance of alpha striking it out the turn it comes in just as an example.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Why does everyone point out grav weapons as wrecking this thing, then say it should have 2+ save? That would make it EASIER to kill it with grav.

I haven't seen anyone here claim both of those things. In fact, the only person who brought up grav weapons said that maybe it is a good thing it is only 3+ save due to grav weapons.

But it would die FASTER to those weapons if it had 2+, hence the idea that it would be helpful against those armies being nonsense. Strength D and grav don't really care what your save is, so ignore the save rating for those units whenever possible. The fact it may have access to an energy field and can park in cover means it will survive D and grav weapons just as easily it would if it were toughness 10 3+ and better than toughness 10 2+.

It is just less survivable against basic fire arms but still quite hard to put down. Considering its primary focus appears to be crowd control those basic weapons shouldn't be that big an issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The first page someone said that marines and admech would wipe this thing out easily. The only weapons they have that could do so would be grav.

3+ armour and T6? Ya done son

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
But it would die FASTER to those weapons if it had 2+, hence the idea that it would be helpful against those armies being nonsense. Strength D and grav don't really care what your save is, so ignore the save rating for those units whenever possible. The fact it may have access to an energy field and can park in cover means it will survive D and grav weapons just as easily it would if it were toughness 10 3+ and better than toughness 10 2+.

It is just less survivable against basic fire arms but still quite hard to put down. Considering its primary focus appears to be crowd control those basic weapons shouldn't be that big an issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The first page someone said that marines and admech would wipe this thing out easily. The only weapons they have that could do so would be grav.

Dman137 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Its hardly garbage. Its an artillery platform, it will be shooting from across the table with relative impunity.

drop pod army's.? Ad-meh.? Eldar.? Necrons.? Will all destroy this thing. Honestly it should have a 2+ save

Oh you mean this quote, gotcha. It's helpful to use quotes.

I agree that a 3+ save may actually benifit this more than giving it a 2+. For one, anything that can ignore a 3+ usually also ignores a 2+ (with Necron Destroyers being one of the few relevant exceptions). And Str 6 spam can be a threat but as people have pointed out, it will take a lot of str 6 to chew through 8 wounds. In addition to this though, giving it a 2+ may have increased the points cost. How many points is that worth to people?

 buddha wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Why does everyone point out grav weapons as wrecking this thing, then say it should have 2+ save? That would make it EASIER to kill it with grav.

Because, in general, grav weapons have good rate of fire and with only a FNP save will get mulched pretty easy even with 8 wounds. A single grav centurion squad with the dev doctrine in a pod has a good chance of alpha striking it out the turn it comes in just as an example.

Hmm, then the argument could be made that it would be more effective as a SHW instead of a GMC. Don't hear too many Imperial Knight players complaining about Grav.

GMCs don't need a 2+ as much as an MC, because they are immune to poison already basically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 buddha wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Why does everyone point out grav weapons as wrecking this thing, then say it should have 2+ save? That would make it EASIER to kill it with grav.

Because, in general, grav weapons have good rate of fire and with only a FNP save will get mulched pretty easy even with 8 wounds. A single grav centurion squad with the dev doctrine in a pod has a good chance of alpha striking it out the turn it comes in just as an example.

Hmm, then the argument could be made that it would be more effective as a SHW instead of a GMC. Don't hear too many Imperial Knight players complaining about Grav.

Grav guns, no, but grav cannons w/amps still wreck knights.

Mediocre!

Wow! What a world where we live in where people say that this beast is awful and yet people still say that Tyranids are just fine...

Seriously, I haven't played 40k for a couple months and haven't bought anything in over a year but if THIS is now considered worthless should I just quit now? Because apparently my armies are just dung compared to this trash.

Look up the Ta'unar stats on FW.

 Gamgee wrote:
Look up the Ta'unar stats on FW.

A unit almost 300 points cheaper isnt as good as one thats almost twice the cost?

Shocker I know.

Basically the problem with any new unit is "what is the easiest counter?"
When the answer is automatically the units already dominant in the meta, then the new unit is expected to be cheap and expendable or able to put out enough damage to warrant the risk.
This looks decent (without seeing the support systems and rest of the codex) but it doesn't really wow anyone with what it can put out before counters can be put in place against it.
Right now the game is just in a bad state where a frikkin troop choice scares someone from deploying a gargantuan creature. Just consider that a moment.

The greatest thing about this is other than GC, kinda-sorta "lol gravs" and being able to shoot twice that it has not much else to compete with in its own slot

If a Tau player invests heavily into filling their elites and heavy slots and still has ginormous amount of points left, they can still field this


Also given the direction of the thread (if the beginning wasn't already a hint of what's to come) I'm surprised the magic words haven't been said yet. May as well get that out of the way
[spoiler]gotdang anime robots, muh 40k smh tbh fam

People somehow forget that tau can be flipping awesome at interceptor, and assume that pod grav and such will actually work. Not so much. There's plenty of room in a list for this baby, an EWO firebase cadre, and a good smattering of other tau in the CAD.

I don't know if maybe your LGS tau guys aren't taking EWO, but every tau or partial tau list I've ever seen on tourney tables has been able to rock out at least two of my units coming from reserves per turn.

So, looking at this thing, and seeing people decry it as terrible, I'm rather shocked.

Is it Wraithknight good? No, it's not quite that absurdly cheap.

But it's certainly not a bad investment of 360pts at all. If this came out 10 months ago it would have floored everyone. Two years ago it would have been the height of overpowered.

It's certainly not bad or underpowered by any stretch of the imagination.

The biggest problem I have is the D weapons range.

I simply don't need or care for more missiles and pie plates. Hordes aren't a problem for tau, its big walkers and tanks that are the problem.

Weird considering the best counter the tau engineers had for knights was a point blank weapon you can only fire once before the knight cuts the suit in two because it has no jetpack. This makes a gundam energy sword seem like a smart idea by comparison.

Wow are you all seriously crying about this thing?

Good points

-FNP 5+
-4+ invu save for 25 pts...
-3+ armor is awsome vs grav guns
-SO MANY WEAPONS
-Can shoot even more if he doesnt move !!!
-8 WOUNDS??6
-So much range...

Bad points

-bad in cc ( who cares its tau.. _
-low ld

Here is an exemple:

5 FYRANTS VS STORM TAU

1-5 flyrant = 60 shots TLD -->
2-Average 10 hits per model = 50 hits
3-S6 vs T6 which is gonna wound around 25x
4-3+ saves will save around 16-17 ---> still takes 8-9 wounds
5- FNP will save around 3 wounds ----> 5-6 wounds in 1 turn

Results = Storm will live with 2-3 wounds

5 Flyrants cost 1200-1235 ( depending if you put Ace fighter )
Storm only cost 360

Lets be honest here, Flyrants are one of the best units in the game and sadly 5 of them cant even shut down this thing. Keep complaning if you want but this thing is broken as hell for most of the codex...

With a Ld of 8, I'm excited to face this with a Freakshow list. A Shadowseer would only need an additional -1 to one shot the thing with Mirror of Minds, and a Psychic Shriek or two (what with the negatives and all) should put paid to it and how.

The price seems reasonable for the armament. Even with another army I don't think I'd cry to hard about it.

Why is everyone assuming the support systems will remain the same?
The codex is where it will be listed if it can take a shield generator or not and if it will cost extra, just like with the Riptide currently.

We don't know if they will keep interceptor as widely and cheaply available. It's fun to speculate but we're looking at a very incomplete picture here.

But on it's own, it's good enough. It's got enough volume of fire and templates to negate it's own BS. The missiles don't bother me much since it's more of a secondary weapon than anything else. The primary cannons both look good, with one seeming to be entirely built around daring someone to deepstrike in close.

That and this is also the first unit to come with a ABFP. Just to repeat, a one per army item is now twin-linked and is included in more than one spot in the list. That on it's own is promising especially considering the current stat of the weapon.