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I'm only OK with OOP recasting. If you want in production kits cheaper, you can always find deals if you're patient, and it won't be resin versions of plastic kits which I'd imagine are hell to put together. Besides, I know how much I could get the recast resin versions for, and it's really not much cheaper than trolling swap shop for a good deal.
However, let's say I want some of the oop metal cadians. They go for stupid amounts right now. If someone walked up to me and said, "hey I recast those, would you like some?" I would gladly pay for them. GW has the tooling, and if they continued to make them I would gladly buy them from GW. But they don't, so I look elsewhere. When GW refuses to sell those models, and the collectors market has hacked them up to stupid prices, GW loses any right (in my mind, obviously not legally technically speaking) to complain about lost money.
This is especially true for OOP games like Epic and Battlefleet Gothic. The only reason those communities exist is dedicated recasters keeping the game alive, because if you tried to collect a 100% legit army you could buy a car for what you would spend. And again, if GW wanted that money, they should've kept the game alive.
And this is ignoring another issue. If GW doesn't want to sell models, what's the ethical difference between me buying a recast metal Cadian, or buying an obvious copy like Vic's Arcadians? GW doesn't want to sell them, so if I just buy them elsewhere does GW have right to complain? Does GW have the right to complain if I make my own Valhallans or catachans because I dislike the official models? There's a lot of grey area and I don't always feel like it's as cut and dry as people like to claim.
And what about OOP games where even the company wishes it could revive it, like Mongoose's Starship Troopers game. The models go for hideous prices right now, especially the core plastic units. If someone told me they were selling recast brain bugs, tankers, and warriors I'd probably reach for my wallet so fast I'd break my arm. People are trying to scalp plastic starter sets for $200 alone on some sites. If I want to play the game with properly sized bug models, recasting is pretty much the only option, as I can't think of any company that makes warrior sized bugs that aren't meant to be centerpiece models and wouldn't be even more expensive than the legit models. Obviously I would have no need to buy recasts of many metal models that rebelminis still sells, but it's the OOp plastic kits that you desperately need to play the game.
Recasting is in some cases the only reason some of these OOp classic games are alive at all. I guarantee you if you went on an epic forum you couldn't throw a stone without hitting at least one guy who had to get a recast army.
However, if a recasters tries to pass it off as legitimate, then he needs to be shut down. It would absolutely infuriate me to find out the model I thought was real (and paid for it as if it was real) as a recast. If the guy straight up tells me it's recast, and sells it accordingly, then I'm alright with it. Again, I'm not a collector, I just want to play old games sometimes without resorting to papercraft or tokens.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/29 17:58:53
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Im talking about an handle bar, not both. And I mean stuff like the left side breaks off, I need a new one cause shag carpets are evil. So lets say I grab another bike, make a mold of the left one, greenstuff it then glue it to the repair one. Is that ok?
curran12 wrote: Even then, it's iffy and morally gray. After all, "it's just for personal use" doesn't exactly put money back into the artist's pocket.
But what if it is literally impossible to get your hands on what your need. I need alot of the deathwatch killteam sculpted white scars pads because Im tired of messing up my transfers and ruining models.
You don't need White Scars shoulder pads. You want them.
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beowulfhunter wrote: Fine, lets take current companies off the table. What is wrong with recasting OOP models?
Ethically, you devalue the legitimate models owned by real customers who may want to sell them, as well as the original copyright owner who might be thinking of re-issuing the piece and is discouraged by the flood of recasts. This then damages the interests of other legitimate buyers who were waiting for the re-issue that now isn't going to happen.
Ok as for the shoulder pads if GW supplied them no one will look for other suppliers.
The only things I don't mind on OOP recasts is the old maker is gone so no chance of remake I.E. A dead game or the have remade with a subpar replacement I.E. Assassins or fine crap.
Now I will try to get GW if I can even for kitbash productions BUT I don't care about people who think of the game as a CCG I have wanted a VSG but GW will not make it and even recasters want a ton for it as some will not let you use 3ed party
What really bugs me is the FW tax that NA buyers must pay
2000 6000 with Reaver Titan guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
TS 30k at 5k points
Yes I have a problem
Talizvar wrote: Which the creator would be able to dust off (if out of production as you infer) at any point facing increased demand... oh wait, not in your scenario.
Im talking about an handle bar, not both. And I mean stuff like the left side breaks off, I need a new one cause shag carpets are evil. So lets say I grab another bike, make a mold of the left one, greenstuff it then glue it to the repair one. Is that ok?
I'll answer your question right after you answer mine.
How many of the legit GW shoulder pads that I linked via ebay did you buy, now that you don't have to counterfeit them?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/29 18:05:14
Why has no one pointed out that those of us that buy legit models have the cost of recasters passed on to us? People complain that the game is too expensive but think about what is driving the cost up. Obviously not the only factor but it plays a part.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Correct me if im wrong, but isnt recasting bitz fine if it is for personal use? Didnt buttery recast an engine part and it was fine on the forum(Tear into me if im wrong, im not accusing anyone of anything. I just read the building the impossible thread that is all)
"I want more of this but don't want to pay for it" is not personal use and not protected.
.
But as said earlier, it is literally impossible for me to get the amount I need.
I really don't see oop as excusing recasts. You missed your chance buying at retail, simple as. Prices are high second hand? Welcome to collecting, if you don't want to pay the market price, you don't get to have the model. Wanting something doesn't mean that you are entitled to buy it at whatever price suits you. When I want oop models, I ask around, I check eBay regularly, I make offers and message sellers. Most things I've been able to get with a little patience, and without breaking the law, or my morals.
On that note, if anyone has an original krell model (preslotta with sword) they wish to sell, get in touch
mhelm01 wrote: Why has no one pointed out that those of us that buy legit models have the cost of recasters passed on to us? People complain that the game is too expensive but think about what is driving the cost up. Obviously not the only factor but it plays a part.
From what I seen recasts of imprint kits are not that much cheaper and need a lot more work to make passable or even put together
The only ones that save cash are OOP or FW
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JamesY wrote: I really don't see oop as excusing recasts. You missed your chance buying at retail, simple as. Prices are high second hand? Welcome to collecting, if you don't want to pay the market price, you don't get to have the model. Wanting something doesn't mean that you are entitled to buy it at whatever price suits you. When I want oop models, I ask around, I check eBay regularly, I make offers and message sellers. Most things I've been able to get with a little patience, and without breaking the law, or my morals.
On that note, if anyone has an original krell model (preslotta with sword) they wish to sell, get in touch
At what point did war gaming become a CCG not everyone wants to collect some want to play the game
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/29 18:16:38
2000 6000 with Reaver Titan guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
TS 30k at 5k points
Yes I have a problem
Talizvar wrote: Which the creator would be able to dust off (if out of production as you infer) at any point facing increased demand... oh wait, not in your scenario.
Has that ever happened?
If you are thinking of GW, see if their newly revived specialist games group does anything. (Holding breath is optional).
Other more pure art I have seen this quite often usually when the artist was "digging around in the back".
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
Buying recasts is against the law is the blunt response but it does pose a strong ethical argument against as well.
Actually, in most countries, it could only be classed as illegal if you could unequivocally prove the purchaser knew with certainty they were buying an illegal copy. Making and selling them is illegal, buying is largely down to the customer's conscience.
Would then the bought product fall under the same category as "possession of stolen goods"?
Which typically can be confiscated?
No. Because recasting isn't theft. It is, as has already been discussed, copyright violation. It isn't even counterfeiting unless the seller is passing the recasts off as originals, it isn't theft because the recasts aren't taken from anyone - unless you'd like to suggest that the recasters are also shoplifting the originals from stores and breaking into FW to get their hands on stuff? Even then, that would be a separate offense.
It's just the same old hyperbole that's trotted out whenever the subject comes up. I've seen many interesting arguments about the nature of IP protection, whether it actually achieved what was intended, how attitude towards IP law varies in different cultures etc.. There's much of interest to discuss, much isn't clear or cut and dried. But inevitably people just throw themselves around using the wrong terms because they're more emotive.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Actually I'd buy the metal shoulder pads in this case - as the metal is NICE/give the marine weight/I really like the Ultramarine metal shoulder pads I have. If I'm considering mass buying sternguard, I can afford metal shoulder pads off ebay.
to break even, It would cost me (to recast to 99% quality) around 100$ to produce around 100 shoulder pads. If I only need 30-40, I'd buy the damn ebay metal ones. If I had a whole battle company to do? The cost and time would out weigh the result/desire. I'm not painting 100 marines at once, I only will paint a dozen or so a week at most.
MrMoustaffa wrote: This is especially true for OOP games like Epic and Battlefleet Gothic. The only reason those communities exist is dedicated recasters keeping the game alive, because if you tried to collect a 100% legit army you could buy a car for what you would spend. And again, if GW wanted that money, they should've kept the game alive.
Only way Epic is alive right now. Seriously.
JamesY wrote: I really don't see oop as excusing recasts. You missed your chance buying at retail, simple as. Prices are high second hand? Welcome to collecting, if you don't want to pay the market price, you don't get to have the model. Wanting something doesn't mean that you are entitled to buy it at whatever price suits you. When I want oop models, I ask around, I check eBay regularly, I make offers and message sellers. Most things I've been able to get with a little patience, and without breaking the law, or my morals.
Your best bud wants to start 6mm gaming - he decides on Warmaster and buys non-GW minis. How would you go about starting Warmaster? eBay will run you a solid 300-400 for a damaged/poorly painted Warmaster army, or $100 for a non GW equivalent (solid companies out there with 6mm) (Not just a starter force, but a full army).
Recasting for me will be: Hunt on ebay for all of the original models $100-200, buy them, strip/repair the 10+ year old models, create masters, make sure you get the mold correct/sprues/inject, spend a few days recasting, QC product, now I can duplicate XYZ amount of ranks for my massive Warmaster Army. Most of the characters/off models will be originals. I'm now playing this wonderfully painted army with my buddy and I had a TON of fun casting/painting/making packed unit stands with the extra models/converting/and so on. This is how the Epic community is... except we have a few AMAZING artists who produce the quality HH models (do not PM me about this)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/29 18:26:23
I see. Only you said earlier that you were going to recast the shoulder pad. Now, you don't have to! The legit GW shoulder pad is for sale. So when you do get to the point where you are going to hobby and build a White Scars unit, you'll look for the legit pads?
Im talking about an handle bar, not both. And I mean stuff like the left side breaks off, I need a new one cause shag carpets are evil. So lets say I grab another bike, make a mold of the left one, greenstuff it then glue it to the repair one. Is that ok?
Sure, that's OK. In my book, that's a repair job. You bought the model and broke a piece. That is 100% different from recasting 10 shoulder pads that are for sale from the manufacturer because you don't want to spend the money.
I love these threads because they let me know who not to trade with.
I am firmly against re-casting. I find it to be a moral issue, and since I hope to eventually make a living off intellectual properties I create I want to honor the IPs of others and pay those artists for their work.
However, it does get morally murky when dealing with OOP items. I acknowledge that and understand where this camp is coming from to a degree. I still think recasting is wrong even for OOP items, but only on the grounds that it potentially muddies the waters for people trying to obtain legitimate copies of those OOP models.
And the counter argument of "Yeah, but these are for my personal use and I'd NEVER pass them off as legit" leaves me very, very skeptical. Things happen, and it is still very likely that those recast bits or models will make their way to the secondary market either through forgetfulness on the seller's part or apathy because the seller is getting out of a specific game system or gaming all together. So, in a perfect world OOP recasting could be a victim-less crime, but in reality I see a lot of fake crap in the market and it is frustrating to deal with as a game collector.
Like a few others on here I bristle at the sense of entitlement pro-recasting folks seem to have regarding models. It strikes me as gross when a person resorts to ethically questionable behavior to get something as frivolous as a gaming model just because they want it.
Buying recasts is against the law is the blunt response but it does pose a strong ethical argument against as well.
Maybe in Canada. In the US, the only state with laws that apply to the purchase of such products is in New York (last time I checked).
In the US it's illegal to produce or sell, "traffic", these infringing products but not illegal to purchase them. Feel free to argue with the Department of Justice if you don't agree.
DoJ:
Under this definition, the scope of the act is limited to commercial activities. Thus it is not a crime under this act for an individual knowingly to purchase goods bearing counterfeit marks, if the purchase is for the individual's personal use.
Copying does two things. 1. It encourages competition; look at the generic drug market for how this works. 2. It encourages constant innovation. I own recasts from China and originals from forgeworld and have found the recasts to be higher quality casts with less remedial work needed. GW loses money to recasters, invests money in new production facilities. The result is a higher quality original product. If a recaster can improve on your design, you're doing something wrong. If you go out of business because you can't compete with people recasting your product, you're doing something wrong (business model, pricing structure, etc.)
I buy the highest quality and lowest priced product that I can with my money because it's my money and as long as I'm not breaking any laws, nobody gets to tell me how to spend my money.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I love these threads because they let me know who not to trade with.
I am firmly against re-casting. I find it to be a moral issue, and since I hope to eventually make a living off intellectual properties I create I want to honor the IPs of others and pay those artists for their work. However, it does get morally murky when dealing with OOP items. I acknowledge that and understand where this camp is coming from to a degree. I still think recasting is wrong even for OOP items, but only on the grounds that it potentially muddies the waters for people trying to obtain legitimate copies of those OOP models.
And the counter argument of "Yeah, but these are for my personal use and I'd NEVER pass them off as legit" leaves me very, very skeptical. Things happen, and it is still very likely that those recast bits or models will make their way to the secondary market either through forgetfulness on the seller's part or apathy because the seller is getting out of a specific game system or gaming all together. So, in a perfect world OOP recasting could be a victim-less crime, but in reality I see a lot of fake crap in the market and it is frustrating to deal with as a game collector.
Like a few others on here I bristle at the sense of entitlement pro-recasting folks seem to have regarding models. It strikes me as gross when a person resorts to ethically questionable behavior to get something as frivolous as a gaming model just because they want it.
It's extremely hard to actually get epic models outside tacticalwargames - and being a member for years (or a caster/sculptor yourself). The only actual recasts I've sold has been unloading extra resin bases (that I created myself) onto eBay for cheap. Trading is a core part in the dead specialist games community. I've also purchased epic tyranids that were recast... and was quite upset. The quality was horrible too - but it was the only lot on for the entire month that had Hierophants. I was buying these to THEN strip and recast for my own army.
I do look down upon a time in 40k 5th ed when I casted 20x Plasma Guns from press magic molding a week before a tournament. That was my early days of casting. They were terrible and I don't know who exactly I gave those gunners too and they might have been sold, then stripped..
For your last statement, I actually just enjoy casting now. It's fun to do. From buying the hirst arts molds, to extreme amount of recasting for dungeons and dragons, I have a handful of custom base types I've made for friends armies. It's another hobby side.
As a musician and a software developer / games designer - recasting is to me theft. Its the same as lifting music or downloading software from pirate bay.
Talizvar wrote: Which the creator would be able to dust off (if out of production as you infer) at any point facing increased demand... oh wait, not in your scenario.
Has that ever happened?
For small companies yes things go out of production possibly as sales are low, possibly if moulds need replacing (which may cost more than the owner thinks he'll get in sales profit in an appropriate time froms) and so the mini is OOP,
but if customers keep asking for it (perhaps its one of those things that lots of folk plan to buy but never quite get round to) it may come back
they also get sold on to other small producers who think they can do better with them (perhaps they do their own casting so costs are lower, perhaps it fits within a range/game they sell so they'll get more people buy), if there are tons of recasts out there for sale the masters/production rights would be devalued
For large businesses not so much (or at all) so I'll agree with you there
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I
Like a few others on here I bristle at the sense of entitlement pro-recasting folks seem to have regarding models. It strikes me as gross when a person resorts to ethically questionable behavior to get something as frivolous as a gaming model just because they want it.
I bristle at people who think they can pass judgment on other people based on one tiny sliver of information. But hey, people making personal moral decisions about what they do with their money gets up your nose, people feeling entitled in adopting a position of moral superiority, frequently alongside a position of factual inaccuracy, gets up mine.
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auticus wrote: As a musician and a software developer / games designer - recasting is to me theft. Its the same as lifting music or downloading software from pirate bay.
Which still isn't theft.
Theft is a legal term with its own definition, which doesn't apply to piracy in any form. How often does this have to be stated before people grasp this?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/29 18:54:25
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Your best bud wants to start 6mm gaming - he decides on Warmaster and buys non-GW minis. How would you go about starting Warmaster? eBay will run you a solid 300-400 for a damaged/poorly painted Warmaster army, or $100 for a non GW equivalent (solid companies out there with 6mm) (Not just a starter force, but a full army).
Then there are two options, either I choose not to collect 6mm warmaster, or I would accept the cost and pay it. That way I am not breaking any laws, my ethics, or devaluing other people's collections. Again, wanting something doesn't come with an entitlement to it.
Stevefamine wrote:(do not PM me about this)
I can't imagine for a moment why I would.
Oldmike wrote:
At what point did war gaming become a CCG not everyone wants to collect some want to play the game
So? If you need an army to play a wargame, you should pay for it legitimately. No one's motivation for wanting a model is any better than anyone else's.
I will guiltily admit to buying recast from time to time. Or at least I did back when I was more avidly collecting. Frankly it was just too good to pass off when you wanted volume. I would still buy FW direct quite often as well, but if you wanted 30 mkIV back in the pre-plastic days then it was really, really tough to turn down a 50% + discount for really well done recasts.
I am not sure I would go do it again now a few years later, but a thriving recast market is the result of prices out of reach for many of the people wanting to play. Vicious circle. I would say although I cannot expect GW or FW to lower their prices per unit, they do seem to be moving in the direction of volume discounts and to me that is a very smart move.
It is extremely easy to recast the old metal models. Simply take a clay and a metal model and stick it in with a square box border. Pour a casting rubber on it and let it cure. remove the box border and clay, keep the model in the rubber mold, flip it over and do the other half. Then melt some pewter ingots (can get from ebay) and pour that hot metal into the mold. Let it cool and you have an exact replica of the metal model (if you did it right). There is NO WAY to tell a recast old metal model if you use pewter ingots and make the recast metal as well. So let that be a lesson to all those who think their precious metal models are safe. Its actually easier to recast them and near impossible to tell a recast from an original.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I
Like a few others on here I bristle at the sense of entitlement pro-recasting folks seem to have regarding models. It strikes me as gross when a person resorts to ethically questionable behavior to get something as frivolous as a gaming model just because they want it.
I bristle at people who think they can pass judgment on other people based on one tiny sliver of information. But hey, people making personal moral decisions about what they do with their money gets up your nose, people feeling entitled in adopting a position of moral superiority, frequently alongside a position of factual inaccuracy, gets up mine.
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auticus wrote: As a musician and a software developer / games designer - recasting is to me theft. Its the same as lifting music or downloading software from pirate bay.
Which still isn't theft.
Theft is a legal term with its own definition, which doesn't apply to piracy in any form. How often does this have to be stated before people grasp this?
Its theft. Its bypassing the owner to create either a cheap knock off or offering it for free. You can pedantically try to nit pick the term to death but its still taking compensation away from the creator. The unauthorized copying and sharing of material.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/29 19:01:14
I'd point out that since the Star Wars decision, it's extremely likely that GW miniatures are only covered by design rights and not copyright and as such only get protection for 15 years (10 years in some cases.)
Also even if they do qualify as "sculpture" to get Copyright protection "under Section 52 of the 1988 Act, copyright which exists in an artistic work which is used as a model for copies made by an industrial process is limited so that, once a 25-year period from the end of the calendar year in which such articles are first marketed, the work may be copied by making articles of any description without infringing copyright in the work."
So it seems that old GW models, older than either 15 or 25 years old are completely fair game to be recast in the UK.
(the same does not apply at all in the US or possibly most other places)
So you can see why GW has been so desperate to talk about their models as collector's items rather than game pieces in the last several years (especially in the Chapterhouse case)
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I
Like a few others on here I bristle at the sense of entitlement pro-recasting folks seem to have regarding models. It strikes me as gross when a person resorts to ethically questionable behavior to get something as frivolous as a gaming model just because they want it.
I bristle at people who think they can pass judgment on other people based on one tiny sliver of information. But hey, people making personal moral decisions about what they do with their money gets up your nose, people feeling entitled in adopting a position of moral superiority, frequently alongside a position of factual inaccuracy, gets up mine.
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auticus wrote: As a musician and a software developer / games designer - recasting is to me theft. Its the same as lifting music or downloading software from pirate bay.
Which still isn't theft.
Theft is a legal term with its own definition, which doesn't apply to piracy in any form. How often does this have to be stated before people grasp this?
Its theft. Its bypassing the owner to create either a cheap knock off or offering it for free. You can pedantically try to nit pick the term to death but its still taking compensation away from the creator.
I think you're conflating it because you're close to the topic. Calling it theft instead of the correct, legal term of "Copyright Infringement" is done to evoke an emotional/moral response. The sad fact is that companies like Disney have taken trademark and copyright to such an extreme that they can continue to make money on something for decades after the death of the artist. It benefits the company, not the artist. If they call it theft, then people will stop and say, "Well, stealing is wrong." but if they call it copyright infringement, they're less likely to get that instinctual emotional response based upon local mores. Calling it theft is also a deft way to attempt to avoid such gray areas as "fair use."
Ask yourself, how long has the concept of copyright been around and how long as theft been around. I remember recording songs off of the radio with my boombox when I was a kid; I suppose I was stealing then....oh wait, SOPA/PIPA didn't exist then.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/29 19:11:11
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I
Like a few others on here I bristle at the sense of entitlement pro-recasting folks seem to have regarding models. It strikes me as gross when a person resorts to ethically questionable behavior to get something as frivolous as a gaming model just because they want it.
I bristle at people who think they can pass judgment on other people based on one tiny sliver of information. But hey, people making personal moral decisions about what they do with their money gets up your nose, people feeling entitled in adopting a position of moral superiority, frequently alongside a position of factual inaccuracy, gets up mine.
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auticus wrote: As a musician and a software developer / games designer - recasting is to me theft. Its the same as lifting music or downloading software from pirate bay.
Which still isn't theft.
Theft is a legal term with its own definition, which doesn't apply to piracy in any form. How often does this have to be stated before people grasp this?
Its theft. Its bypassing the owner to create either a cheap knock off or offering it for free. You can pedantically try to nit pick the term to death but its still taking compensation away from the creator. The unauthorized copying and sharing of material.
No, it's not
If you were guilty of piracy and were charged with theft, you'd walk free from the court room.
There is nothing pedantic about it, you're using the wrong term, probably because you're emotionally involved in the subject and want to throw around what you feel is the term that most reflects how you feel.
Accusing a recaster of theft is like accusing a murderer of speeding, they're both against the law, but they're not the same offence.
It is important to keep the conversation grounded in fact, because people will get very emotional about the topic, and that generally leads to thread lock.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/29 19:10:12
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
MajorTom11 wrote: I will guiltily admit to buying recast from time to time. Or at least I did back when I was more avidly collecting. Frankly it was just too good to pass off when you wanted volume. I would still buy FW direct quite often as well, but if you wanted 30 mkIV back in the pre-plastic days then it was really, really tough to turn down a 50% + discount for really well done recasts.
I am not sure I would go do it again now a few years later, but a thriving recast market is the result of prices out of reach for many of the people wanting to play. Vicious circle. I would say although I cannot expect GW or FW to lower their prices per unit, they do seem to be moving in the direction of volume discounts and to me that is a very smart move.
I've never purchased any GW recasts before or handled any of those china rip offs. I'm aware they have a rep for being better - but looking at picture reviews on popular mainstreeam upvote boards - they're not that much better. Forgeworld has sent me some extremely poor Hydra casts back in 5th edition. Still mad about hours of hot water and greenstuff. I was unaware the price was that much lower - I expected it was a "Send your money here and hope the product shows up".
Again - I've not sold casts except my custom resin bases
Xerics wrote: It is extremely easy to recast the old metal models. Simply take a clay and a metal model and stick it in with a square box border. Pour a casting rubber on it and let it cure. remove the box border and clay, keep the model in the rubber mold, flip it over and do the other half. Then melt some pewter ingots (can get from ebay) and pour that hot metal into the mold. Let it cool and you have an exact replica of the metal model (if you did it right). There is NO WAY to tell a recast old metal model if you use pewter ingots and make the recast metal as well. So let that be a lesson to all those who think their precious metal models are safe. Its actually easier to recast them and near impossible to tell a recast from an original.
A fellow recaster friend had a 1/6~ success rate with metal XYZ chaos character. It's unforgiving and not worth the control vs resin. I've also seen many posts of fake Necromunda models (I've never handled these).
No. Because recasting isn't theft. It is, as has already been discussed, copyright violation. It isn't even counterfeiting unless the seller is passing the recasts off as originals, it isn't theft because the recasts aren't taken from anyone - unless you'd like to suggest that the recasters are also shoplifting the originals from stores and breaking into FW to get their hands on stuff? Even then, that would be a separate offense.
It's just the same old hyperbole..
this is the same old nonsense you churn out every time.
Counterfeiting copyrighted or trademarked items is a criminal offence. Note the word "criminal". It's there in countless laws, across countless territories. Including China. Just because you have a corrupt regime that doesn't enforce it doesn't make it legal.
If you're talking about overseas producers selling stuff and being honest about it, even that is morally suspect. But once those recasts change ownership, do you really think the vendor will be open and honest with the sale?
I'm not doing this ping pong all over again, but I'll correct one more bit of nonsense that appeared on this thread.
Copyright was essentially first enacted by ARTISTS. William Hogarth, whose prints were getting pirated. Hogarth wasn't the man - he was simply someone who made money the hard way, and was assailed by people who wanted to make money the easy way
I have a couple of items I bought from eBay which I'm certain are recasts, and I don't stay awake nights worrying about them. But to present something that is often criminal, and invariably suspect, as somehow cool and sticking it to the man is laughably naive. Perhaps one day you'll have an idea or an invention that someone wants to rip off - then you'll care.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/29 19:25:27
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
2000 
6000 with Reaver Titan 
guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
