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"because they are largely toast in CC"

This is patently false, as was mentioned earlier in the thread. They can crush any generalist unit in CC, and WS 2 still hits most things on a 4+. That's all you care about.

If they were 275, you could have less of the other stuff in the list. Like missile sides. And marker lights. And drones.

I'm not sure what tactics you think I need to evaluate when I set up models, move models towards Tau, and then pick them all up. Transports help, but my transports can be cracked by both fire warriors and missilesides. Drop pods don't work because EWO. And most of my units can't statistically beat a Riptide in assault, despite your claims.

 Bach wrote:
Riptides are not fearless and the AP2 due to Smash isn't exciting when you're WS 2. Have you ever had a Riptide lose combat and die due to a sweeping advance after one round? I have. From experience, they are not good in assault and losing them that way is particularly cringe worthy because their FnP and 5 wounds and most of their perks don't matter. No hit an run either. I have had this happen from a Farseer on a bike, so it doesn't take a monster CC unit to do it either. If you are feeling that Riptides are as 'immortal' as you think, I would probably re-evaluate your tactics because they are largely toast in CC. Same goes for Storm surges as their Stomps haven't turned the tide of battle for me yet.

If you are playing a BA and you think 225 is too cheap because Riptides are too hard with the pie plates, I'm not sure that increasing the point count to 275 wouldn't change much for you. You are still going to have a hard time if you were having a hard time before.

If you are playing BA and can't get telepathy, then that is a big downer because psychic shriek is likely (aside from Invis) the best psychic ability in the game. It's borderline broken but it is what is is.

WS 2 means you hit on 4's vs practically everything in the game...which is basically what everything rolls to hit vs most things. 3+ or 4+...come on man...shriek is short ranged. You also nova for a 3++ (wise if you think a shriek is coming.) at least you have a 5++/ fnp at the minimum. If you drop a pod with a libby in it you can 1 shot it before he cast powers with 5 point EWO - this is not a viable way to kill riptides.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Bach wrote:
Riptides are not fearless and the AP2 due to Smash isn't exciting when you're WS 2. Have you ever had a Riptide lose combat and die due to a sweeping advance after one round? I have. From experience, they are not good in assault and losing them that way is particularly cringe worthy because their FnP and 5 wounds and most of their perks don't matter. No hit an run either. I have had this happen from a Farseer on a bike, so it doesn't take a monster CC unit to do it either. If you are feeling that Riptides are as 'immortal' as you think, I would probably re-evaluate your tactics because they are largely toast in CC. Same goes for Storm surges as their Stomps haven't turned the tide of battle for me yet.

If you are playing a BA and you think 225 is too cheap because Riptides are too hard with the pie plates, I'm not sure that increasing the point count to 275 wouldn't change much for you. You are still going to have a hard time if you were having a hard time before.

If you are playing BA and can't get telepathy, then that is a big downer because psychic shriek is likely (aside from Invis) the best psychic ability in the game. It's borderline broken but it is what is is.

WS 2 means you hit on 4's vs practically everything in the game...which is basically what everything rolls to hit vs most things. 3+ or 4+...come on man...shriek is short ranged. You also nova for a 3++ (wise if you think a shriek is coming.) at least you have a 5++/ fnp at the minimum. If you drop a pod with a libby in it you can 1 shot it before he cast powers with 5 point EWO - this is not a viable way to kill riptides.

At least someone playing Tau gets it.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Bach wrote:
Riptides are not fearless and the AP2 due to Smash isn't exciting when you're WS 2. Have you ever had a Riptide lose combat and die due to a sweeping advance after one round? I have. From experience, they are not good in assault and losing them that way is particularly cringe worthy because their FnP and 5 wounds and most of their perks don't matter. No hit an run either. I have had this happen from a Farseer on a bike, so it doesn't take a monster CC unit to do it either. If you are feeling that Riptides are as 'immortal' as you think, I would probably re-evaluate your tactics because they are largely toast in CC. Same goes for Storm surges as their Stomps haven't turned the tide of battle for me yet.

If you are playing a BA and you think 225 is too cheap because Riptides are too hard with the pie plates, I'm not sure that increasing the point count to 275 wouldn't change much for you. You are still going to have a hard time if you were having a hard time before.

If you are playing BA and can't get telepathy, then that is a big downer because psychic shriek is likely (aside from Invis) the best psychic ability in the game. It's borderline broken but it is what is is.

WS 2 means you hit on 4's vs practically everything in the game...which is basically what everything rolls to hit vs most things. 3+ or 4+...come on man...shriek is short ranged. You also nova for a 3++ (wise if you think a shriek is coming.) at least you have a 5++/ fnp at the minimum. If you drop a pod with a libby in it you can 1 shot it before he cast powers with 5 point EWO - this is not a viable way to kill riptides.

At least someone playing Tau gets it.

Trust me learned the hard way. I had a skyhammer with a full grav dev squad parked in cover about 10 inches away from the RIP. EWO takes out 4 marines...one had to be a grav cannon because of terrain features. 15 grav shots produces 2 wounds after the cover save and FNP. Next turn I get charged and the unit is dead in 3 rounds of combat. Keep in mind this unit cost 280+35 points. It's specialty is destroying 2+ save units. I've tried this probably 5 times by now and it just never works. The math backs me up - I'd be lucky to kill it - but I HAVE TO kill it. ap2 pie plates are too much for marines to ignore.

Riptides negate a minimum of 55% of incoming shots. That's just with stims and nothing else. Being unable to negate FNP on T6 models is a serious headache. And grav allows FNP rolls on any toughness.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Bach wrote:
Riptides are not fearless and the AP2 due to Smash isn't exciting when you're WS 2. Have you ever had a Riptide lose combat and die due to a sweeping advance after one round? I have. From experience, they are not good in assault and losing them that way is particularly cringe worthy because their FnP and 5 wounds and most of their perks don't matter. No hit an run either. I have had this happen from a Farseer on a bike, so it doesn't take a monster CC unit to do it either. If you are feeling that Riptides are as 'immortal' as you think, I would probably re-evaluate your tactics because they are largely toast in CC. Same goes for Storm surges as their Stomps haven't turned the tide of battle for me yet.

If you are playing a BA and you think 225 is too cheap because Riptides are too hard with the pie plates, I'm not sure that increasing the point count to 275 wouldn't change much for you. You are still going to have a hard time if you were having a hard time before.

If you are playing BA and can't get telepathy, then that is a big downer because psychic shriek is likely (aside from Invis) the best psychic ability in the game. It's borderline broken but it is what is is.

WS 2 means you hit on 4's vs practically everything in the game...which is basically what everything rolls to hit vs most things. 3+ or 4+...come on man...shriek is short ranged. You also nova for a 3++ (wise if you think a shriek is coming.) at least you have a 5++/ fnp at the minimum. If you drop a pod with a libby in it you can 1 shot it before he cast powers with 5 point EWO - this is not a viable way to kill riptides.

Here's the deal with riptides...you typically don't willingly assault with them because they are much better staying out of assault and shooting. If a player wants to assault a riptide, I see units with WS 5 or higher with high initiative, so I would be usually hitting on 5s. I have always been able to avoid tarpits buts HQs on bikes (or anything that moves 12 in) can usually catch my Riptide. Also, knowing when a Shriek is coming is tricky when the unit casting it has a 12 inch movement range, giving psychic shriek and effective threat range of 30 in. That's not a short range IMO and could be hard to predict that the Riptide is the target. I could cast a 3++ but it's a cost benefit thing, compared to other things I could use the Nova Charge on, if I wanted to Nova Charge at all.

Clearly EWO is to prevent someone from deep striking next to a Tau unit to nuke it but there are also other ways to deliver Psychic shriek besides a libby in a drop pod (Bikes, jetpikes, tzentch discs, Daemon princes, Flying MCs, etc).

I would agree that that abiliity would be the achilles heel for it.

All I'm saying is that there are cheaper , faster units out there and can kill Riptides reliably. In fact, even a Khorne Hound pack (maybe a 10 pack @ 160 points?) is probably enough to take a Riptide or at least tarpit for rest of the game.

I see Riptides assault crippled squads all the time.

What are these cheap fast units? The kinds of units that seem to live long enough are TWC and Wraiths. And even they have to hope that the Riptide breaks in CC so they can sweep it. Reducing Riptide to 0W is so difficult.

 Bach wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Bach wrote:
Riptides are not fearless and the AP2 due to Smash isn't exciting when you're WS 2. Have you ever had a Riptide lose combat and die due to a sweeping advance after one round? I have. From experience, they are not good in assault and losing them that way is particularly cringe worthy because their FnP and 5 wounds and most of their perks don't matter. No hit an run either. I have had this happen from a Farseer on a bike, so it doesn't take a monster CC unit to do it either. If you are feeling that Riptides are as 'immortal' as you think, I would probably re-evaluate your tactics because they are largely toast in CC. Same goes for Storm surges as their Stomps haven't turned the tide of battle for me yet.

If you are playing a BA and you think 225 is too cheap because Riptides are too hard with the pie plates, I'm not sure that increasing the point count to 275 wouldn't change much for you. You are still going to have a hard time if you were having a hard time before.

If you are playing BA and can't get telepathy, then that is a big downer because psychic shriek is likely (aside from Invis) the best psychic ability in the game. It's borderline broken but it is what is is.

WS 2 means you hit on 4's vs practically everything in the game...which is basically what everything rolls to hit vs most things. 3+ or 4+...come on man...shriek is short ranged. You also nova for a 3++ (wise if you think a shriek is coming.) at least you have a 5++/ fnp at the minimum. If you drop a pod with a libby in it you can 1 shot it before he cast powers with 5 point EWO - this is not a viable way to kill riptides.

Here's the deal with riptides...you typically don't willingly assault with them because they are much better staying out of assault and shooting. If a player wants to assault a riptide, I see units with WS 5 or higher with high initiative, so I would be usually hitting on 5s. I have always been able to avoid tarpits buts HQs on bikes (or anything that moves 12 in) can usually catch my Riptide. Also, knowing when a Shriek is coming is tricky when the unit casting it has a 12 inch movement range, giving psychic shriek and effective threat range of 30 in. That's not a short range IMO and could be hard to predict that the Riptide is the target. I could cast a 3++ but it's a cost benefit thing, compared to other things I could use the Nova Charge on, if I wanted to Nova Charge at all.

Clearly EWO is to prevent someone from deep striking next to a Tau unit to nuke it but there are also other ways to deliver Psychic shriek besides a libby in a drop pod (Bikes, jetpikes, tzentch discs, Daemon princes, Flying MCs, etc).

I would agree that that abiliity would be the achilles heel for it.

All I'm saying is that there are cheaper , faster units out there and can kill Riptides reliably. In fact, even a Khorne Hound pack (maybe a 10 pack @ 160 points?) is probably enough to take a Riptide or at least tarpit for rest of the game.

Theres plenty of tarpit CC squads out there. Not saying a riptide is immune to that - except it should never be close to a tarpit unit because it never needs to be. maybe for HBC riptides but those are really just a fad that is going on right now because of the riptide wing. The ion is the superior platform hands down and in my tau army I would never include a HBC riptide - Missile sides do that job much better I think.

Martel732 wrote:
I see Riptides assault crippled squads all the time.

What are these cheap fast units? The kinds of units that seem to live long enough are TWC and Wraiths. And even they have to hope that the Riptide breaks in CC so they can sweep it. Reducing Riptide to 0W is so difficult.

We can start with a BA Captain HQ on a bike with a Thunder hammer and and a lightning claw. He can move 12 (then turbo boost), costs between 155-190 (depending on Storm Shield of Artificer armor?). The math clearly works out for him in CC so that part of the equation is solved. Your challenge, like any assault based army is to deliver the payload, so to speak. I guess I would go bike because I go bike (or juggernaut) with my Chaos Lords. But that is not a problem with the Riptide, that is a general issue with how your army works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Theres plenty of tarpit CC squads out there. Not saying a riptide is immune to that - except it should never be close to a tarpit unit because it never needs to be. maybe for HBC riptides but those are really just a fad that is going on right now because of the riptide wing. The ion is the superior platform hands down and in my tau army I would never include a HBC riptide - Missile sides do that job much better I think.

I agree, I generally don't do HBC... well I did when Earth Caste Array wasn't at issue but with MSU coming back, it's pie plates for days. But I don't go Trip-tide either, generally two at the most.

BA bike captain has been sneaking into my lists but more to soak scatterlasers and HYMP fire.

BA assault payload is admittedly not what it used to be, but the lack of a unit like Wraiths or TWC makes it very difficult to even get into assualt in the first place. T5 W2 is a very favorable stat line currently. IA can't double you out, and TWC can get storm shields to boot.

So then is the Riptide fair against vanilla marines and Space Wolves? It still seems stupid tough for a 225 pt model, but it's certainly much more fair when it faces assault units it can't one-shot off the table.

I don't mind the firepower of Tau and Eldar per se, but they can both put too much durability on the table with high firepower for many lists to be able to cope. Eldar have 3+ armor jetbikes and the WK, and Tau have the Riptide and Stormsurge.

 Bach wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I see Riptides assault crippled squads all the time.

What are these cheap fast units? The kinds of units that seem to live long enough are TWC and Wraiths. And even they have to hope that the Riptide breaks in CC so they can sweep it. Reducing Riptide to 0W is so difficult.

We can start with a BA Captain HQ on a bike with a Thunder hammer and and a lightning claw. He can move 12 (then turbo boost), costs between 155-190 (depending on Storm Shield of Artificer armor?). The math clearly works out for him in CC so that part of the equation is solved.

Well let's work that out. A BA captain with th/claw and thus having 4 base attacks at WS 6 averages a touch below 1 wound per combat on a stim riptide, or .5 wounds if it turns on the nova shield. (Although it takes .33 wounds per game round for using it, which drops to .22 with stims, or .11 per combat, but that is indeed the superior option, so let's assume the tide takes .61 wounds per combat.)

Assuming the tide doesn't fail a leadership from a measly single wound, the super combat focused captain will take 9 (!!!) combat rounds to kill it.

The riptide, striking first, is statistically better off making his single smash attack here, with a (accounting for the cap's iron halo,) .14 chance per combat round of one-shotting the captain. This means it is statistically probable to happen within 7 combat rounds.

So there we have it. As long as the tide doesn't get scared and run off from a ld -1 check (aka ld 8, they're base 9) it statistically defeats an unwounded claw/hammer biker marine captain in melee, despite being a shooting focused MC fighting a hyper-melee focused HQ choice. The matchup gets significantly easier for the tide if the captain is wounded, as it can instead use its multiple attacks to do .33 wounds per round, 3 rounding a 1 wound captain or 6 rounding a 2 wound captain.

I believe the argument still stands: Due to having smash and being ludicrously tough, the riptide is just too damn good at melee when you consider that that is supposedly its weakness.

The only really efficient close combat against it is AP2 instant death attacks. Those knock out the 2+ armor and FNP. The value of FNP on T5/T6 models is stupid. I really wish there was a limitation.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Bach wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I see Riptides assault crippled squads all the time.

What are these cheap fast units? The kinds of units that seem to live long enough are TWC and Wraiths. And even they have to hope that the Riptide breaks in CC so they can sweep it. Reducing Riptide to 0W is so difficult.

We can start with a BA Captain HQ on a bike with a Thunder hammer and and a lightning claw. He can move 12 (then turbo boost), costs between 155-190 (depending on Storm Shield of Artificer armor?). The math clearly works out for him in CC so that part of the equation is solved.

Well let's work that out. A BA captain with th/claw and thus having 4 base attacks at WS 6 averages a touch below 1 wound per combat on a stim riptide, or .5 wounds if it turns on the nova shield. (Although it takes .33 wounds per game round for using it, which drops to .22 with stims, or .11 per combat, but that is indeed the superior option, so let's assume the tide takes .61 wounds per combat.)

Assuming the tide doesn't fail a leadership from a measly single wound, the super combat focused captain will take 9 (!!!) combat rounds to kill it.

The riptide, striking first, is statistically better off making his single smash attack here, with a (accounting for the cap's iron halo,) .14 chance per combat round of one-shotting the captain. This means it is statistically probable to happen within 7 combat rounds.

So there we have it. As long as the tide doesn't get scared and run off from a ld -1 check (aka ld 8, they're base 9) it statistically defeats an unwounded claw/hammer biker marine captain in melee, despite being a shooting focused MC fighting a hyper-melee focused HQ choice. The matchup gets significantly easier for the tide if the captain is wounded, as it can instead use its multiple attacks to do .33 wounds per round, 3 rounding a 1 wound captain or 6 rounding a 2 wound captain.

I believe the argument still stands: Due to having smash and being ludicrously tough, the riptide is just too damn good at melee when you consider that that is supposedly its weakness.

That's IF it gets Nova Shield and The BA would likely get 1 extra attack on the charge.

**Also I think your math is wrong.

I've calculated the average CC results for both the Riptide (with 3++ ) vs BA captain

So here we go...


Here is the BA Captain ( Thunderhammer/LC) attacking Riptide assuming Riptide Nova Charge 3++ Invul:

4 attacks at 3+ to hit (4 X .66) = 2.64 hits X (Str 8 vs T6) 2 to wound or .83 = 2.19 wounds X 3++ (and remember the 3++ nova charge is a 2/3 chance to go off so we're taking .33 / .66) or .5 = 1.09 unsaved wounds X FNP .66 = .71 unsaved wounds





Here's the Riptide attacking BA Captain with 4++ Invul:

3 attacks or 1 Smash Attack

3 attacks at 5+ to hit (3 X .33) = .99 hits X [Str6 Vs T5 (bike adds 1 toughness)] 3 to wound or .66 = .65 wounds X 4+ Invul or .50 = .32 unsaved wounds

1 Smash attack at 5+ to hit (1 X .33) = .33 hits X (Str 10 Vs T5) 2 to wound or .83 = .27 wounds X 4+ invul or .5 = .13 unsaved wounds


How do you figure that the Riptide comes out higher in the equation? Here's the math and the BA Captain has it hands down. Again, the Riptide is not what you think it is and the math here should help you out to see that.

You forgot the FNP save. That gets it down close to .61 from above. The Riptide has a .13 chance every turn of instakilling the captain, as BA do not have shield eternal. That's not looking good for the captain.

The Riptide is EXACTLY what we think it is. The math confirms this.

Sorry just added it but it i still double and that does not take into account the attack on the charge or the hammer of wrath attack.

13% chance of ID isn't what I would call overpowering, would you? By the time a BA Captain Biker would be able to get into combat, how many turns would be left? The odds are is that the Captain would at least tarpit the Riptide in which you would essentially be nullifying 225 points of pie plate shooting with 155 at around turn 2-4 which would take the Riptide out of the game if not killed outright. We also have not factored in the math behind the chances of a the morale test from losing combat. Remember if the BA Captain gets lucky with and extra wound or two that value is directly taken as a penalty to the Riptide LD which will increase it's chances of failing the test.

The 3++ would be the most ideal situation for the Riptide to have while being charged, but the timing of that would be suspect when seen in practice. It would be much more likely that the unit would left with only its 5++ and FNP.



Also, ID weapons such as force weapons... a Tzentch sorceror on disc could be cheap and kill a Ripetide for a comparative cheaper price.

 Bach wrote:
Sorry just added it but it i still double and that does not take into accound the attack on the charge, the hammer of wrath attack.

Those aren't going to make a big difference. I still remains that it will take 9 rounds, maybe 8 round with charge attack and hammer of wrath (which is ap nothing, so will not do anything). The chances are the captain won't make it there and has to hope for a blown morale test.

You forgot the tide's feel no pain from stims, which affects both how many wounds you take from failing nova as well as from the cap.

Now granted there is some advanced dependent statistics on the extra damage the tide would take due to lacking the 3++ for the rounds that he fails nova that I didn't include. As near as I can tell, if you include the tide regularly failing to get the nova save the captain goes to dealing out .76 wounds per round (this includes the .11 per combat of the nova wound,) still taking 7 rounds to crest 5 wounds, which puts him on either statistically dying first on round 7 as the tide's smash attempts will have passed the point of expected death at init 2, or if the tide was damaged in the previous round, they would double KO thanks to concussive on the thunder hammer.

It's still a victory for the tide even with that math added in, just barely. The only time the math finally swings in favor of the captain is if the tide fails leadership, in which case the game is over.

(A victory in the sense that the tide was most likely shooting prior to the combat while the captain was blitzing to him and having no other effect on the battle, so a double KO is most likely still beneficial overall for the tau, doubly so if the cap was the warlord.)

The fact that we are coming up with numbers like 7 and 9 rounds shows that this thing is way, way too tough for its point cost. And on a shooting model.

Martel732 wrote:
The fact that we are coming up with numbers like 7 and 9 rounds shows that this thing is way, way too tough for its point cost. And on a shooting model.

Indeed this. We're talking about a model (the captain) that would be tearing apart most units in a couple rounds. His own point value in ASM, tacticals, striking scorps, etc would lay down for him or flee from a large negative ld check. Then suddenly you're looking at a thing that's supposed to be weak to melee taking around 4 entire game turns for him to take down with an as-appropriate weapon as he can take, something is waaaaay off.

(Never mind the fact that we've shown above that him even winning the encounter is a coin flip at best.)

Martel732 wrote:
The fact that we are coming up with numbers like 7 and 9 rounds shows that this thing is way, way too tough for its point cost. And on a shooting model.

Well if we were going to do the Instant Ddeath game, let's at least do it right:.

Tzeentch Sorcerer on Disc Sigil of Corruption, bolt pistol, spell familiar, with Force Axe, ML 2 (taking telepathy for psychic shirek and god forbid ...invisibility?) = 170 points

Now aside from the psychic shriek which 1 or two success against a Riptide would be enough to end it, let's skip straight to combat.

Riptide attacking Sorceror in CC with Sorc with 3++

3 attacks at 5+ to hit (3 X .33) = .99 hits X [Str 6 Vs T5 (disc is jetbike +1 T)] 3 to wound or .66 = .65 wounds X 3++ or .33 = .21 unsaved wounds

1 Smash attack at 5+ to hit (1 X .33) = .33 hits X [Str 10 Vs T5] 2 to wound or .83 = .27 wounds X 3++ or .33 = .09 unsaved wounds (Instant death)


Chaos Sorceror attacking riptide with 3++ with and charged up Force axe (ID)

4 attacks at 3+ to hit ( 4 X .66) = 2.64 hits X [STR 5 Vs T6] 5 to wound or .33 = .87 wounds X 3++ or .33 = .28 unsaved wounds (Instant death)


So for 170 points I can get a sorcerer who can Psychic shriek the Riptide to death and if that wasn't enough, it is statically better that the Riptide in CC, as well as have generally good utility for the entire game. Note that the Sorceror's chances at IDing the Riptide are higher so the ID argument for the Riptide does not apply here . All that for 170 points. Again the numbers don't lie and according to your ID logic, the sorcerer is flat out better. What if invisibility is in play?



Also a Nurgle Chaos Lord on Bike, sigil of corruption, Powerfist.LC would have a similar performance tot he BA Captain only that it would be impossible for the Riptide to ID because of T6 on the bike. All for 165 points. So ID won't work there and the this unit pulls ahead on unsaved wounds and the unit is 60 points cheaper than a 225 pt Riptide. Even if someone came with 3 riptides, it may not be a bad investment to go for 3 of these bikers (CAD +Ally) to shut them down. Plus nurgle bikers lord are good in general.


Also, what about a Raven Wing Biker Squad with a tricked out sgt for 120 points? Not enough ablative wounds? Add two more bikes for a total of 170 points. That's not even taking into account any grav, just a sgt with Thunderhamer and LCs. Having ablative wounds would nullified the ID issue (on smash) and the squad may still pull out ahead on wounds .

Like I said, cheaper options.

I don't think any of those options you listed would work in practice. The wound rates are pitifully low. I think CSM players will be happy to chime in on how the things you've listed don't really counter Tau at all. And DA are just the ultimate victims of the Tau. So that was a silly assertion.

I notice how you dropped the BA captain thing like a hot potato too.

Martel732 wrote:
The fact that we are coming up with numbers like 7 and 9 rounds shows that this thing is way, way too tough for its point cost. And on a shooting model.

But look at what you are saying. I am showing you that there is math on some cheaper units that can pull ahead on the Riptide; all units which are *significantly* cheaper. But is your only goal to kill a Riptide? Clearly if it is stuck with a unit that is 50+ points cheaper and cannot kill it within the time frames of a game, who came out ahead there? You honestly cannot tell me that the player with the Riptide did. Any stalemate in CC ,on game turns, is usually in favor for the cheaper unit. So, I have shown you that there are cheaper units that can kill the Riptide and if not kill, would at least tie it up and make it useless for the remainder of the game, which would not be favorable for the Tau player.

As such this is why you don't see Riptide dominate tables. Further, here is one of the latest Frontline Gaming matches where the Riptide Wing was used, got to go first turn one, got to use its second volley, gets BS4, two Storm surges, and still lost to Space Marines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Op5ovJHIE8








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think any of those options you listed would work in practice. The wound rates are pitifully low. I think CSM players will be happy to chime in on how the things you've listed don't really counter Tau at all. And DA are just the ultimate victims of the Tau. So that was a silly assertion.

I notice how you dropped the BA captain thing like a hot potato too.

I thought I would use that example because you may play Blood Angels. Also, what is this "work in practice"? Riptides don't usually have 3++ "in practice". In reality, many Riptides, if using Nova charge would likely be using another profile when being charged because getting off the last good shot before being tarpitted is usually more important. Now I agree with you, wound rates are low but there is math there that does not favor the Riptide. And if the BA Captain hung in there at 155 points and shut down a Riptide, you would be coming out ahead, even with no Riptide death. So with the acknowledgement that the wound rates against the BA Captain would be "pitifully low" you can assume that he would likely hang in there for the rest of the game, effectively making the riptide player lose 70 points worth of his list.



"In Practice", Riptides can be tarpitted by a cheaper unit moving 12 inches, and effectively be taken it out of the game. Or if it' a shooting game, fall to weight of fire over a few turns

You forget all the stuff the riptide shot to death before getting tarpitted. I have to sacrifice a unit to tie the thing up after losing god knows how much to its shooting. That fact is exactly why low tier dexes have no shot vs this thing.

Martel732 wrote:
You forget all the stuff the riptide shot to death before getting tarpitted. I have to sacrifice a unit to tie the thing up after losing god knows how much to its shooting. That fact is exactly why low tier dexes have no shot vs this thing.

I agree with you on getting to the Riptide, it isn't going to be easy. But you know what also isn't easy? Playing an assault army in 7th. I play CSM and I haven't had particular trouble with catching a riptide. Yes I am losing units along the way but I can usually get there. Not always, but a lot. And I'm not necessarily winning a lot either. But an HQ in a squad (a juggerlord with hounds) can usually kill one relatively quickly. However, I do have trouble moving around the board without constantly being pelted with Str5 and Str 7 spam or a Buffmander DSing with body guards spamming whatever the Crisis suits doubled up on. I try and maximize taking units that move 12 inches. It's not the all be all but it helps getting some of them into CC. That means a lot of bikes and spawn, flesh hounds for my KD. I have raptors I haven't built yet which may be worth taking, but I 'm not sure. If you play DA, I guess that means bikes and jump attack squads but I don't know how fun or effective that would be.

Another thread full of Tau players who refuse to acknowledge that they are a problem. Maybe the issue is the playerbase and not even the faction?

Next time you try to imply your bs isn't OP, switch armies with your opponent and have them beat the crap out of you with your own army and see how you like it.

RayND wrote:
Another thread full of Tau players who refuse to acknowledge that they are a problem. Maybe the issue is the playerbase and not even the faction?

Next time you try to imply your bs isn't OP, switch armies with your opponent and have them beat the crap out of you with your own army and see how you like it.

I have. And I smashed his ass
swapping armies is something that I am ALWAYS willing to do. (though I do ask for 20-30 minutes so I can peruse their codex & list)

 carldooley wrote:

RayND wrote:
Another thread full of Tau players who refuse to acknowledge that they are a problem. Maybe the issue is the playerbase and not even the faction?

Next time you try to imply your bs isn't OP, switch armies with your opponent and have them beat the crap out of you with your own army and see how you like it.

I have. And I smashed his ass
swapping armies is something that I am ALWAYS willing to do. (though I do ask for 20-30 minutes so I can peruse their codex & list)

Same here. Never stopped me from smashing people. I find most of my opponents are pretty terrible, but then again no one will fight me anymore with anything in anything. A few have a bit of talent but it's overshadowed by their emotions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5VQ_c5v4XM#t=2m28s

 carldooley wrote:

RayND wrote:
Another thread full of Tau players who refuse to acknowledge that they are a problem. Maybe the issue is the playerbase and not even the faction?

Next time you try to imply your bs isn't OP, switch armies with your opponent and have them beat the crap out of you with your own army and see how you like it.

I have. And I smashed his ass
swapping armies is something that I am ALWAYS willing to do. (though I do ask for 20-30 minutes so I can peruse their codex & list)

You would fail hard with BA, just because you are not used to having literally no effective units. You can't even try for invisibility to save a single unit.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
A Riptide has far more more capability on its own than a Land Raider. It's resilient, mobile, and putting out Leman Russ equivalent firepower.

fine lets run with that. a Leman Russ is 150 pts? How much is a Riptide?

only if we're assuming a naked Russ, and, like Riptides, have additional weapons. The Riptide also has the ability to Smash assault if necessary, on top of the greater resiliency and mobility.

Addto the fact the russes suffer from vehicle rules, most variants are extremely medicore and only the specialist variants dish out any reliable amount of dakka. If I could re-start my guard army I wouldn't even bother with normal russes.

RayND wrote:
Another thread full of Tau players who refuse to acknowledge that they are a problem. Maybe the issue is the playerbase and not even the faction?

Next time you try to imply your bs isn't OP, switch armies with your opponent and have them beat the crap out of you with your own army and see how you like it.

That's the thing, I do. I also play CSM/KD and although it is harder to play an assault army, I can usually catch them. If for whatever reason I can't kill them, I can at least keep them in combat for the rest of the game with a significantly cheaper unit - which is a win for me. The people I play with can usually do the same. That's not denial, that's just a lot of experience with Riptides. Yeah maybe there is an army that has a harder time catching and killing them. But honestly, if I can do it with Chaos Marines or Khorne Daemonkin, most other lower tier armies should be able to do the same, assuming that they invest in fast moving (12 inch movement) units.