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Sisters need it more than anyone else. You might be able to argue, if you really want, that another faction is weaker.

You cannot, however, argue that another faction has less, and is in need of more attention. You will fail every time.

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
Sisters
Orks
Chaos

In that order

Even though im a devout follower of the dark gods, one is in dire need of love, the other almost unplayable and the final one just lacking flavour.

You've listed the 2 armies that I'd say need the Dark Eldar TOTAL REBOOT in there.

Sisters have a very dated all metal monopose range. Obvious candidates for getting some additions. Yes, there were characters and a few units added with Witchhunters but the core is still painful. Ruleswise they're clunky. Very clunky. And undergeared compared to every other IoM force. Plus, in the edition of Flyers they have...none. And no anti-flyer kit either. So that's a gaping hole in their range.

CSM have a mix of dated models (as Old as Sisters in some cases) and the most confused design aesthetic I've ever seen. Are we SMs with trims? Baroque warped SMs? Fleshy abominations? Do we have vehicles? Dinobots? Is our army Dark Mechanicus? Renegades? Traitor Legions? Our rules are a mess because of this as well. Instead of biting the bullet and pulling out Traitor Legions, Lost and the Damned, Renegades and Dark Mechanicus books (giving Chaos a nearly IoM equivalent ally matrix and letting them actually do proper books) we get this half hearted Jack of All Trades - can represent everything non-sense and it shows.

Orks? Orks need something. Not sure what though. I feel Orks and AM should probably be put to the bottom of the Fix Us Pile.

I'd say...

CSM and Sisters - both need major overhauls and to be brought up to date in terms of power and options. (No detachment, no tactical objectives, weak half Disciplines, no Formations, no Decurions)
Tyranids - the mid-range book that is spread out everywhere for its options and has formations through dataslates...but suffered when the change to psychic powers being cast neutered SitW's overall effect. Considering this is their anti-psyker it's kind of tragic. (No tactical objectives, Formations and Detachment in supplements, no Decurion)
Dark Eldar, Grey Knights, Blood Angels - these were the tail end of 6th and though they have detachments and objectives they lack a lot of options and fell behind their counterparts. Yay power creep. (no Formations/Formations in supplements, no Decurion).
Orks, AM, Daemons, Space Wolves - These have all received 'updates' which have fallen woefully short of counterparts. Mainly balance issues. (Decurion in supplements, Formations in supplements).

2 armies that need major overhauls and re-releases.
1 army that needs a rules overhaul.
3 armies that need to be brought up to 'par' with trimmings.
4 armies that need minor tweaking to bring them just over the line of mediocre or just down from cookie cutter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters need it more than anyone else. You might be able to argue, if you really want, that another faction is weaker.

You cannot, however, argue that another faction has less, and is in need of more attention. You will fail every time.

Sisters and CSM are on the same boat.

Sisters have a unified design aesthetic but suffer from monopose metals nearly 2 decades old across the board. They need plastics but like GKs you could easily pull off a 2 box release for them (1 box of PA sisters, 1 box of Seraphim - new addition is another jump pack unit type). Add in a flyer or combi Exorcist/Anti Flyer tank kit and they're golden.

CSM design aesthetic is...all over the place. Really CSM is a giant mess trying to pretend it's 4 different things that needs to be split up and expanded into those four things. (Renegades, Lost and the Damned, Legions, Dark Mech).

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Sisters, hands down. CSM is bad, but Sisters are worse.

Sisters are NOT worse than CSM. That is a crazy claim.

Martel732 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Sisters, hands down. CSM is bad, but Sisters are worse.

Sisters are NOT worse than CSM. That is a crazy claim.

Which army has just had its only faction unique transport unit deleted from sale along with some of the rank and file models
Which army has zero plastic models
Which army has zero formations.
Which army has not had new models in what more than a decade?

which claim is crazy?

 Mr Morden wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
Sisters, hands down. CSM is bad, but Sisters are worse.

Sisters are NOT worse than CSM. That is a crazy claim.

Which army has just had its only faction unique transport unit deleted from sale along with some of the rank and file models
Which army has zero plastic models
Which army has zero formations.
Which army has not had new models in what more than a decade?

which claim is crazy?

I'm talking crunch-wise, not model wise. Of course Sisters need new models.

Martel732 wrote:
IG have options. MoO just chooses not to use them. Not top tier, but better than Orks and the like for sure. IG currently don't autolose to marines, despite what he says.

IG have semidecent one toy and MoO lacks the £100+ needed to field two effective squadrons of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Sisters need it more than anyone else. You might be able to argue, if you really want, that another faction is weaker.

You cannot, however, argue that another faction has less, and is in need of more attention. You will fail every time.

Sisters are not actually too badly off. The things that let them down are:

A) The lack of a hard codex.

B) The lack of integral anti-air.

C) The lack of proper publication.

D) The lack of modern multi part plastic figures

E) The obscene price of there 1990's era figures

The codex itself is actually pretty solid.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Sisters and CSM are on the same boat.

No.

No, they aren't.

This is an objectively and provably wrong statement, and while you are titled toy our opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

Chaos Marines have had constant, consistent updates every single edition . They have gotten a constant stream of new models and new rules. The unpleasable CSM player fanbase doesn't like the rules and constantly finds things to complain about, but they have still gotten a constant stream of rules and models from the very start.

Sisters have none of that.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG have options. MoO just chooses not to use them. Not top tier, but better than Orks and the like for sure. IG currently don't autolose to marines, despite what he says.

IG have semidecent one toy and MoO lacks the £100+ needed to field two effective squadrons of them.

You've also got infantry blobs backed up by mass psykers. Don't think this can work? Ask the DA guy that was just tabled by it last week. Also, nothing is more hilarious than watching Tau fire ion accelerators at guardsmen with 4++ saves. So much cursing. DA are a quality codex that my BA have virtually no chance against. Yet the IG guy made it look easy. Huh, wonder why that was?

 Melissia wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Sisters and CSM are on the same boat.

No.

No, they aren't.

This is an objectively and provably wrong statement, and while you are titled toy our opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts.

Chaos Marines have had constant, consistent updates every single edition . They have gotten a constant stream of new models and new rules. The unpleasable CSM player fanbase doesn't like the rules and constantly finds things to complain about, but they have still gotten a constant stream of rules and models from the very start.

Sisters have none of that.

Updates? New models? Where?

Jokes aside, they have had very few model updates either. And currently the Chaos Codex is quite weak, hell even I enjoy fighting it.

"Sisters are not actually too badly off."
Sisters are the worst off of any army right now.

The smallest codex with the least amount of options, absolutely no new models, many of their models are out of production, overpriced, and underperforming.

 Melissia wrote:
"Sisters are not actually too badly off."
Sisters are the worst off of any army right now.

The smallest codex with the least amount of options, absolutely no new models, many of their models are out of production, overpriced, and underperforming.

Crunch-wise, they are better off than many. Model-wise, they are bottom of the barrel.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG have options. MoO just chooses not to use them. Not top tier, but better than Orks and the like for sure. IG currently don't autolose to marines, despite what he says.

IG have semidecent one toy and MoO lacks the £100+ needed to field two effective squadrons of them.

You've also got infantry blobs backed up by mass psykers. Don't think this can work? Ask the DA guy that was just tabled by it last week. Also, nothing is more hilarious than watching Tau fire ion accelerators at guardsmen with 4++ saves. So much cursing. DA are a quality codex that my BA have virtually no chance against. Yet the IG guy made it look easy. Huh, wonder why that was?

Trust me on this: Massed infantry plus psykers does not work very well. It is also obscenely expensive. Sure, you will get the odd lucky run but most of the time you just do not have the endurance or damage output to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
"Sisters are not actually too badly off."
Sisters are the worst off of any army right now.

The smallest codex with the least amount of options, absolutely no new models, many of their models are out of production, overpriced, and underperforming.

Not really, they can utterly hammer most mid tier codexes.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG have options. MoO just chooses not to use them. Not top tier, but better than Orks and the like for sure. IG currently don't autolose to marines, despite what he says.

IG have semidecent one toy and MoO lacks the £100+ needed to field two effective squadrons of them.

You've also got infantry blobs backed up by mass psykers. Don't think this can work? Ask the DA guy that was just tabled by it last week. Also, nothing is more hilarious than watching Tau fire ion accelerators at guardsmen with 4++ saves. So much cursing. DA are a quality codex that my BA have virtually no chance against. Yet the IG guy made it look easy. Huh, wonder why that was?

Trust me on this: Massed infantry plus psykers does not work very well. It is also obscenely expensive. Sure, you will get the odd lucky run but most of the time you just do not have the endurance or damage output to work.

I don't trust you on anything IG related. You're still using Russ hulls and expecting to win. Mass infanty + psyker + wyverns + air cav beats a LOT of lists, including anything I can conceivably build. I stood there and watched the DA game. DA have a lot of models reliant upon cover, and only a couple psykers with perfect timing plus orders is a disaster for them. Ignore cover autocannons with prescience massacre DA.

Tyranids, because they need to be completely rethought. They are basically incompatible with the idea of a game where two people play, and neither knows who will win in the end.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Updates? New models? Where?

If you're trying to get me to pity you, or laugh, neither is working. You're just annoying me.

Chaos Space Marines received a second edition codex, TWO third edition codices, a fourth edition codex, sixth edition codex, plus two sixth edition supplements. All of which added something to the faction and provided change to it, and involved a wave of new model releases of some sort.

Sisters of Battle received two proper codices, one in second and one in third, both of which added somethign to the faction and came with new model releases. Since then, Sisters have received nothing except two barebones rehash codices in fifth and sixth edition, neither of which came with any new model releases-- in fact, not only did they come with no new models, we have LESS model choice than ever before, with many of our models out of production.

So no, your whining about how CSMs are somehow remotely the most neglected army in the game is stupid.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Not really, they can utterly hammer most mid tier codexes.

Try to read the fething post before responding, instead of trying to counter a point I never fething tried to fething make.

 Melissia wrote:
"

The smallest codex with the least amount of options, absolutely no new models, many of their models are out of production, overpriced, and underperforming.

Fun fact. The Cannoness models, half the base line infantry, half the Seraphim variants, the Exorcist, the Repentia, St Celestine and Penitent Engines are technically newer than a significant chunk of the CSM range.

They're newer than...

Base CSM.
Obliterators.
Khorne Berserkers
Plague Marines
CSM Havocs
The Thousand Sons and Noise Marine upgrade packs.
Chaos Bikers.
The Defiler.

Sisters perform better proportionately than CSM do.

Their digital codex is newer than the CSM codex.

The problem they have is essentially their model range and the fact their Codex sits in the 6th ed. pre 'special detachment' bubble and hasn't been updated. Along with CSM. Funny that, eh?

Apart from the anti-air weakness in a Flyer heavy edition their primary lack is their model range. They are very much in the same position Grey Knights were prior to their 5th edition update which basically threw two plastic kits and a vehicle at them.

The CSM range is for all intents and purposes very disjointed and lacking. A very large chunk of it is dated. The design aesthetic is a mess and getting a consistent unit is a nightmare. Want a Havoc Squad with autocannons? Fork out £100 and you can have that.

But your pretty constant stream of 'My opinion is fact, yours is opinion' is utter tripe to be honest.

I have never said Sisters do not need an update. I have never said they do not need a new model range. But their design aesthetic is significantly more concrete than CSM. I can put a metal sister next to a seraphim next to a canoness and see a unified range with a defined thematic image.

Now try to do the same with a base CSM model, the Dark Vengeance Chosen, a Chaos Raptor and a Helbrute. One's vanilla SM with trims and horns, one's baroque and mutated, one's half and half and one is FLESHY BITS. I mean, try making a consistent army with that. It just doesn't mesh at all. As I have stated CSM suffer from a book and design aesthetic that is trying to do 4 things at once.

Sisters also pretty much get all their options - admittedly in metal monopose but for CSM...nope. Look at the Chaos Terminator kit. It doesn't even have enough to make 5 generic chaos terminators with power weapons and combi bolters. And that's the base armament. No, really, it is. Imagine buying a Tactical Squad or Ork mob and finding they don't have enough of your BASIC STANDARD WEAPON to equip the squad with. What's worse is the same rings true for the CSM squad as well. You get 8 bolters for a 10 man box.

So please, do not harp on that CSM should never have an update ever because your preferred army needs one as well.

Because no one is denying Sisters being top tier for the Update list. But CSM are in pretty much the same boat.

For Sisters they need their model range expanded into plastics. They have a solid aesthetic as is but would benefit immensely from plastic kits. Some anti-air would help as well (something that could easily be combined with a dual Exorcist tank kit).

CSM need a Dark Eldar scale range reboot - their models are mish mash, the aesthetic is sloppy and really the army needs a sense of direction. When Daemons split off they expanded and their range got stronger. Imagine the same for Renegades, Traitor Legions and Lost and the Damned.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
I have never said Sisters do not need an update. I have never said they do not need a new model range. But their design aesthetic is significantly more concrete than CSM. I can put a metal sister next to a seraphim next to a canoness and see a unified range with a defined thematic image

Now try to do the same with a base CSM model

I don't need to. They're Chaos. If they looked uniform they'd look wrong.

Also, no, most of the CSM line is not older than 1997. Base CSMs are not. Obliterators are not. Havocs are not. The only one that is that you listed are Plague Marines. The newest Sisters models were released in 2004, and they consisted only of special weapons carriers, repentia, and a couple new sister superior models.

By comparison Chaos had major waves of model releases in 2015, 2013, 2012, 2010, 2008, 2007, 2006, plus every year from 2003 to 1994, and several earlier major waves, with additional small releases in 2011, 2004, 2000, and other years that didn't have a major wave.

So no, Chaos has not been neglected in comparison to Sisters. Or, in other words, you don't know gak about your own army's model releases. You're just whining.

SoB, CSM and Orks.

It's not about who got more updates. It's about who needs one more NOW. The sisters model line is in a league of its own in terms of needing an update. No faction comes even close.
In crunch terms though, sisters are doing ok. Just ok, but still, ok. They could get away with getting a a few campaign formations and maybe a unit or two and they would be fine. It wouldn't replace a new codex of course, but they really don't need one as bad as other codices do.

I play sisters myself and I won't touch them until we get a new dex, but that's mainly because I want my jump canoness back lol. I win more with my sisters than I do with csm, they play much more consistently.

Sisters need an update for their codex, CSM on the other hand need a Dark eldar treatmentt. Ideally even MORE than DE got. For CSM it would make more sense to split them into multiple factions/codices. Waht we have right now is not only not on the same power level anymore, it doesn't even work as a faction codex to begin with. Sisters are sisters, CSM are...I'm not sure anybody knows what they are supposed to be.

Roknar wrote:
Sisters need an update for their codex, CSM on the other hand need a Dark eldar treatment.

On the contrary, Chaos just needs a new ruleset, and a few new minis. Splitting them up in to multiple books would be okay, but they don't need to have a ton of new model development time directed at them, as they already have a ton of models.

By contrast, Sisters need an entire new model line and revamp, many of their models are flat out of production, and many more of them will be as the years go on. IIRC, ALL of the Sisters minis are OOP-- they don't actually produce these minis, they just sell from a stockpile.

 Melissia wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Sisters need an update for their codex, CSM on the other hand need a Dark eldar treatment.

On the contrary, Chaos just needs a new ruleset, and a few new minis. Splitting them up in to multiple books would be okay, but they don't need to have a ton of new model development time directed at them, as they already have a ton of models.

By contrast, Sisters need an entire new model line and revamp, many of their models are flat out of production, and many more of them will be as the years go on. IIRC, ALL of the Sisters minis are OOP-- they don't actually produce these minis, they just sell from a stockpile.

You conveniently left out the part where I said that sisters have no competition in terms of models needing an update. There was a thread about models needing an update and I said that sisters need it more.
This is about the codex though, and I'm only counting the codex for this thread, not minis + dex. And CSM need a codex overhaul waaay more than sisters.

Ofc in reality, you wouldn't get one without the other and in that situation I'd say sister need it more just because their models may as well not exist at all right now.

That's the thing, how are Sisters supposed to get a Dark Eldar type revamp WITHOUT a massive model release? They just don't have enough options in their codex to provide that kind of a relaunch. Chaos, by comparison, has tons of options. Its players just don't pick a lot of them because they consider them underpowered.

Codex wise sisters only need maybe some new arbites style units, formations and obviously a flyer or two. Their thing is faith and the holy trinity. They don't need fancy grav weapons and what have you. And that's what they currently have. Their faith rules need tweaking and less assault based rules, but that doesn't require a major departure from what already exists. And maybe we'd see a few bolter type relics and probably torrent flamers, but again, nothing major to be done there. It would just be a modernized version of what we have now...and in print -_-

Chaos on the other hand are marines -11. They still don't have a "thing" going on. No faction mechanics unless you count marks. I suppose you could say we are supposed to be head hunters due to the boon table, but that just doesn't work at all in practice and can be actively bad.
Virtually everything we have, marines have too, only better. CSM need a new identity, Sisters don't.

Just about everything is usable in the sisters dex, bar repentia s and penitent engines. Even the basic sisters are surprisingly effective. CSM are barely playable outside of FW (which I'm a lso not counting for this thread)

 Melissia wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Sisters need an update for their codex, CSM on the other hand need a Dark eldar treatment.

On the contrary, Chaos just needs a new ruleset, and a few new minis. Splitting them up in to multiple books would be okay, but they don't need to have a ton of new model development time directed at them, as they already have a ton of models.

By contrast, Sisters need an entire new model line and revamp, many of their models are flat out of production, and many more of them will be as the years go on. IIRC, ALL of the Sisters minis are OOP-- they don't actually produce these minis, they just sell from a stockpile.

No, BOTH CSM's and Sisters need a complete model line overhaul and full-on DE level treatment.

Both ranges are absolutely ancient, one is missing half or more it's basic options while the other is still entirely metal!
Both armies are lacking in viable rules, though on the whole, Sisters rules-wise are actually better than the poor Chaos Marines...

As to the big question of who should realistically be the first? You may not like it, but it should be Chaos hands down.
Chaos IS the 'Great Enemy' of 40k itself, and the central driving force behind the entire story. Every giant clusterfethed reality that the IoM, Eldar & Tau find themselves struggling against is because of Chaos.
Sisters on the other hand are the 3rd arm of the Imperial war machine, well behind the Space Marines & IG in their visible 'importance'.

Great stories absolutely need equally great villains to drive the story. Right now, the single greatest threat to everyone is a laughing stock, with a model line that's both dysfunctional & completely lacks any kind of visual theme. (besides being a mess of nearly 30 years of vastly differing designs, while trying to be 4+ different things all at once...)

 Melissia wrote:
I don't need to. They're Chaos. If they looked uniform they'd look wrong.

Chaos =/= Random. Can we repeat this half a dozen times? Chaos =/= Random. To assume that a horribly disjointed aesthetic is acceptable because you don't quite understand the concept of the army itself is horrible. You don't see this sort of disjointed appearance in any other army...because no other army has as staggered and disjointed a series of released where it's clear that the design aesthetic has shifted each time.

Also, no, most of the CSM line is not older than 1997. Base CSMs are not. Obliterators are not. Havocs are not. The only one that is that you listed are Plague Marines. The newest Sisters models were released in 2004, and they consisted only of special weapons carriers, repentia, and a couple new sister superior models.

Every helmeted variant of Seraphim or base Sisters was released in 2004 with the Witchhunters codex, which was released AFTER the 3.5 CSM Codex. This was in addition to the Hospitalier model, the variant 'Reliquary' bearers, the current Canonesses, the Exorcist, the SoB vehicle upgrade sprue which was used for the Rhino and to make the Immolator, the Repentia and the Penitent Engine as well as the Inquisitor models that were released with them (the female Inquisitors and the broad hat Inquisitors and their retinues).

The base CSM sprue was released BEFORE the 3.5 Codex by about 6 months (when they were doing the Index Astartes series in White Dwarf) and has since been recut in 4th edition. A recut does not a new kit make.
Obliterators, The Defiler, Havocs and Plague Marines were released with the 3.5 Codex or in the month that followed.
Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, the Iron Warrior and Night Lord upgrade kits and characters were all released with their relevant Index Astartes articles.
Chaos Bikers were about a year earlier.
Khorne Berserkers were released 1 month after the 3rd ed. Codex along with Cypher and the first version of the Raptors.
Our vehicle upgrade sprues date to the 3rd. ed and 3.5 Codexes as well.

By comparison Chaos had major waves of model releases in 2015, 2013, 2012, 2010, 2008, 2007, 2006, plus every year from 2003 to 1994, and several earlier major waves, with additional small releases in 2011, 2004, 2000, and other years that didn't have a major wave.

This is some sort of special derangement. Let me summarise our releases for you since you seem to believe we get new models every year and harp on back to 2nd edition as well. First, for 2nd edition almost everyone's ranges were staggered out and released piecemeal. The most 'complete' 2nd ed. release was actually Sisters of Battle which pretty much was their entire army to be frank and all in one go.

3rd ed. was staggered out over 2 years. Initial release was the Chaos Raptors and 1st version of the Obliterators. Khorne Berserkers and Cypher followed the month after. The first power armoured Chaos Lord and Chaos Biker kit followed the month after that. Then, about a year later when they started doing the Index Astartes articles we saw the CSM kit followed by upgrade kits (Iron Warriors, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children) until the 3.5 book dropped.

3.5 gave us the Chaos Havocs, Defiler, 2nd (and current) version of the Obliterators, 2nd version of the Raptors and the metal Daemon Prince. In fact, I remember some shenanigans that year as the 3.5 Codex and Daemon Prince could be picked up in advance at Games Day yet Seb Perbet won the open competition with a version of the Daemon Prince for Golden Daemon. The question was who gave him an early copy of it. A month later we got Plague Marines.

At some point we got the Chaos Predator - just after Imperials got their new plastic Predator.

Eye of Terror gave us Plague Marine Havocs (which were basically an upgrade kit for the CSM sprue again).

Medusa V gave us the Nurgle Prince, the metal Chaos Terminator Lord with a Kai Gun and the fugly metal Possessed.

Late 4th edition gave us Lash-Codex which featured Khorne Lords, Jump Pack Lord, Chaos Terminators, 3rd version Raptors, 2nd version Possessed and Chaos Spawn. And a recut CSM sprue which was basically the same with Icons.

Apocalypse gave us a Chaos Vindicator.

About a year later we got a plastic daemon prince after seeing the bugger in our book and then in the WFB Chaos Warrior book for the longest time as part of the Daemons release.

Dark Vengeance gave us the Cultists, Chosen, Lord and Helbrute.

6th edition gave us Dinobots, Finecast characters, plastic Aspiring Champion and Mutilators. Which are basically Obliterator models with ugly resculpt heads and blades stuck on the arms.

The Helbrute came about 2 years after. Please note at this point the Helbrute replaced a metal Chaos Dreadnought kit that was pushing 3 decades.

So no, Chaos has not been neglected in comparison to Sisters. Or, in other words, you don't know gak about your own army's model releases. You're just whining.

I know plenty. I know my army's releases had a solid, unified appearance in 2nd ed. (all about the trims) which has gradually become distorted and confused to the extent where the army looks mish mash and disjointed.

How is this hard to understand for you? How are you not grasping this concept.

Repeat.

Chaos =/= RANDOM.

Khorne is not Random, Nurgle is not Random, Slaanesh is not Random (discordant but not Random), the Iron Warriors are not Random, the Night Lords are not Random, the Word Bearers are not Random, the Black Legion are not Random, the Alpha Legion are not Random.

Random is exactly the fething problem that CSM and Daemons have in the first place. Random dice rolls with inflated points costs because you might get lucky is terrible. Especially when the nearest counterpart army has options to reliably purchase what they want.

Sisters need a 5th ed DE scale release to pretty much bring their entire range forward and into plastic for that matter.
Chaos need a 5th ed DE scale release to get the army's aesthetics back together.

BOTH need their Codexes to be brought up to date and their identities further defined. For Sisters it's a case of expansion - adding different unit types, covering all tactical bases and fleshing them out to fill the Inquisition Gap. For Chaos it's actually a case of having a defined identity rather than a casual 'meh' that tries to be four or five different things at once.

No other army has a mish mash appearance in terms of Aesthetics that is as jarring. Not even Orks. Not even Daemons. Daemons have very defined aesthetics for the different powers and their models adhere to them - it is possible to have a unified appearance in an Ork or Daemon army. Chaos? Not so.

And as far as whining goes? Try not to throw stones in a greenhouse love.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Every helmeted variant of Seraphim or base Sisters was released in 2004 with the Witchhunters codex, which was released AFTER the 3.5 CSM Codex.

And Chaos has gotten newer models since then, so quit your whining and be thankful that you aren't in as gakky a situation as Sisters are.

For all your ranting you still haven't really presented anything other htan the same generic CSM player whining that has been doing on since third edition, and yet CSMs still get more attention than a lot of factions do. They just aren't ever done the way YOU want them done. Sisters, by contrast? Just don't get done, period. You don't get exactly what you want, but you still get SOMETHING, which is more than what we've gotten.

Sisters don't even have anything on forgeworld any more aside from Rhino Doors, while Chaos has 21 separate titans, plus over 100 non-titan items. You can whine and whine all you want about how you're the most mistreated special snowflakes in Games Workshop history, but it just looks like hollow nonsense from where I stand.

 Melissia wrote:
You can whine and whine all you want about how you're the most mistreated special snowflakes in Games Workshop history, but it just looks like hollow nonsense from where I stand.

Sigh. Welp. You heard it. The special snowflakes are triggered that someone else is in a similar situation. Because the bleating for Sisters of Battle hasn't become a meme since 4th edition onward now, has it?

Not sure if serious or self depreciating irony?

Ah well, no need for me to see your vitriol and gak anymore.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The special snowflakes are triggered that someone else is in a similar situation.

Indeed, apparently you are, and you don't even notice how hypocritical this statement makes you when you've spent pages after pages arguing that your faction, which has gotten constant updates over the years including new models and rules, is somehow more neglected than factions that have gotten far less.

*sigh*
Tyranids. They are so bad, it's crushing my desire to play at all. I want them to be good, from gaunts to carnifexes and beyond. I don't want a codex that's "go flyrants (or go big) or go home"

Although I loath chaos, I guess CSM does as well as my son's forces have now lost 3 out of 3 times against my no flyer Tyranid army, and have no hope against my casual (one Riptide) Tau army.

And I guess I haven't played IG enough - what problems does their codex have?

 Stormonu wrote:
*sigh*
Tyranids. They are so bad, it's crushing my desire to play at all. I want them to be good, from gaunts to carnifexes and beyond. I don't want a codex that's "go flyrants (or go big) or go home"

Although I loath chaos, I guess CSM does as well as my son's forces have now lost 3 out of 3 times against my no flyer Tyranid army, and have no hope against my casual (one Riptide) Tau army.

And I guess I haven't played IG enough - what problems does their codex have?

IG have the same problem that Orks have. Phil Kelly didn't write the codex. Same thing for Nids to.

We have writers who vaguely attempted to make the codex playable and balanced against the CSM codex. And while they were doing that, Phil Kelly and the rest of the writers were pushing out the Eldar, Necron, SM, Tau and KDK Codexs which makes ours look like wasted paper in comparison. It wouldn't be as bad if they were internally balanced or Externally balanced, but they are neither. All of the bad codexs are filled with units that are so terrible they only see the light of day in fluffy games or ironically.