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Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





RNAS Rockall

 Ratius wrote:
How does DFTS compare to Stormcloud in terms of pure flyer on flyer fun?
I have 10 flyers and would love a good old dogfight set of rules.
*No CAD footsloggers were harmed in this question*


Clumsy, if i'm honest.

BRB flyer v flyer is not noticeably worse than DFTS. I'm inclined to believe because it's 'from' instead of 'in' and the focus really is on making air to ground more effective - which in many cases it didn't need to be. Stormcloud seems to have been what they were trying to do, and DFS was the warmup.

Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wichita, KS

I went to a GT this weekend that was using some parts of the Death from the Skies rules. We didn't use the dogfight phase or the reserve manipulation. The top lists took advantage of it significantly. The #2 player ran an army that was 10 Fliers plus a Forgeworld character. He was smashing people with his "Ignore Cover" firepower. He finally lost out to a Flying Circus Demon list that took advantage of most fliers losing skyfire. The Demon player won it.

In my final game, and only loss, I had to deal with some Storm Talons with BS 6. He ended up in 4th. My 1st round opponent running a Necron Obelisk which is still a superior anti-flier unit took 3rd. Players were thoroughly displease when encountering armies that exploited the DFtS rules, and my experience of it was that DFtS negatively impacted the experience for most players at the top tables.

I am more convinced that ignoring it is probably best course of action unless you've prenegotiated a flier themed battle with your opponent. It is just too destabilizing creating many more games decided in the matchup stage before dice are rolled.

I think except for the 3-4 players that really exploited it, most players came out of the event much more negative on DFtS than they went in.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






What were the missions for this GT. Cause it's hard to believe that pure firepower without decent scoring can reliably win maelstorm time and again.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wichita, KS

The missions were really janky. No progressive components at all. Every Mission was worth 25 points. 10 Points came from Victory Points (aka old Kill Points). 8 points from a primary (Crusade, Kill points (yes double kill points!), Assassinate, Double Relic, and Kill points + Assasinate), 4 points from a secondary that often doubled down on the primary (Crusade, Emperor's will, Table Quarters, Double Relic, Crusade + Table Quarters), and The last 3 points came from tertiaries that either tripled down on the primary or were some form of assassinate. I was told the missions were based on fantasy missions, but I'm not really a fantasy guy so I don't know.

The extreme focus on Kill points catered strongly to flier spam, but honestly, 10 fliers all with Hover mode is pretty good at catching end of game objectives, especially since they didn't do variable game length. Possibly in a more typical mission structure they would be less bothersome, but every single opponent I had complained about it. I never got matched up with a flier spam list or a FMC list, but I did play a Necron obelisk list which ended 3rd overall partially because it is a really good counter to fliers. I also played a list with 2 Storm Talons rocking BS6 thanks to DFtS. They didn't really change the game, but they did make me morn for the poor, poor Ork fliers (Dakkajet now BS:2 vs ground).

I really doubt future events will use this format (either allowing DFtS or these janky missions), but it was an interesting snapshot of the mood.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/25 17:29:57


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





California

Except for 1 player at my local store we all like and don't mind dfts. As an ork player it got me to want to use my flyers and get more. It makes flyers feel more than just faster hard to hit skimmers. We generally just ignore the dog fight phase and use all the other stuff.

- Neva trust a Deff Skull , gitz just wanna take yur lootz
- Only good Deff Skull iz a Ded one !  
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

Hardly anyone has it at my local store, and I certainly don't have it nor use it.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

Our little group briefly mentioned it, we all had a laugh at the stupidity of the dogfight phase, but one of the guys wanted to at least try the formation rules to see if it helped his army at all. We'd let him, but no one else has any interest in it.

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Blacksails wrote:
Our little group briefly mentioned it, we all had a laugh at the stupidity of the dogfight phase, but one of the guys wanted to at least try the formation rules to see if it helped his army at all. We'd let him, but no one else has any interest in it.


When I heard about the Dogfight phase and what it entailed, I immediately knew that no one in my group would care for it. It's just, for lack of a better word, stupid.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

You mean you don't want to play glorified rock paper scissors? Engage those tactical muscles! Forge that Narrative!

Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress

+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+

Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wichita, KS

 Blacksails wrote:
You mean you don't want to play glorified rock paper scissors? Engage those tactical muscles! Forge that Narrative!

It's not Rock-Paper-Scissors. That game is fair. In DFtS, Eldar win ties.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




tag8833 wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
You mean you don't want to play glorified rock paper scissors? Engage those tactical muscles! Forge that Narrative!

It's not Rock-Paper-Scissors. That game is fair. In DFtS, Eldar win ties.

I'm genuinely curious as to whether tha's exaggeration or literal.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

pm713 wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
You mean you don't want to play glorified rock paper scissors? Engage those tactical muscles! Forge that Narrative!

It's not Rock-Paper-Scissors. That game is fair. In DFtS, Eldar win ties.

I'm genuinely curious as to whether tha's exaggeration or literal.
Porque no los dos?

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wichita, KS

pm713 wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
You mean you don't want to play glorified rock paper scissors? Engage those tactical muscles! Forge that Narrative!

It's not Rock-Paper-Scissors. That game is fair. In DFtS, Eldar win ties.

I'm genuinely curious as to whether tha's exaggeration or literal.
LOL

I wish I was exaggerating. There are lots of ways eldar win, but let me give you one example.
Spoiler:

Eldar have the Best Agility (in addition to the most points efficient flier).

In the Manoeuvre phase you each pick a number between 1 and 3 and check the table:
1 + 1 = Attacker
1 + 2 = Defender
1 + 3 = Roll a dice and add your Agility to choose the winner

2 + 1 = Roll a dice and add your Agility to choose the winner
2 + 2 = Attacker
2 + 3 = Defender

3 + 1 = Defender
3 + 2 = Roll a dice and add your Agility to choose the winner
3 + 3 = Attacker

Based on the results of the comparison you force your opponent to pivot by up to 90 degrees, or 180 degrees if your Agility is 2 more than your opponents. AKA you are Eldar vs. Space Marines, IG, Necrons, Orks, or Tau
So yeah, Eldar have a bonus when deciding Attacker / Defender because their "fighters" (Crimson Hunter) are better than other "fighter" class fliers, A bonus when rolling on the table, and a bonus when resolving the effects of the table.

Rock - Paper - Scissors, Eldar Win.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

As an Eldar player who finally got to try out dogfighting, I have to agree with tag8833.
Eldar are almost always going to be attacker.
Eldar are almost always going to use a Crimson Hunter.
Agility 5/Pursuit 5 pretty much guarantee that any dice off the Eldar player will win, meaning Eldar have a 2 in 3 chance of dominating.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Virginia

 Happyjew wrote:
As an Eldar player who finally got to try out dogfighting, I have to agree with tag8833.
Eldar are almost always going to be attacker.
Eldar are almost always going to use a Crimson Hunter.
Agility 5/Pursuit 5 pretty much guarantee that any dice off the Eldar player will win, meaning Eldar have a 2 in 3 chance of dominating.


Oh man, sounds awesome. Let me go buy the book right now.

40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty  
   
Made in de
Flower Picking Eldar Youth




Munich

Our "group" has not used DftS. We like Stormcloud Attack much better as we dislike the overly simplistic approach to the fighting in the sky which is taken by DftS.
We do integrate StcA if we want to have fighting in the sky. And tent to use the reserve modifiers which to us look reasonable.

However almost all of us feel and hope to see a new approach to flyers in the upcoming 8th edition. Preferably a simple one.

Currently we have house ruled:
Flyers and FMCs that can hover must do so always as long as they are over the board.

Frankly we like the helicopter idea but do not really consider "jets" to belong on a 40k board.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/27 14:57:19


when in doubt - shoot it. 
   
Made in be
Dakka Veteran




Manhattan

locarno24 wrote:
I'd definitely encourage people to try Stormcloud Attack. The App has the rules in it, so you don't need to buy the box if you've no use for it, but it's a standalone game that actually works, rather than flyers bolting on random complexity after other random complexity.



The app for this costs $6.99 ? So you need to buy the app? Also does the app have the rules for the FW flier in it like the Eldar Nightwing? Basically I want to play stormcloud attack with my Dark Eldar Razorwing vs. my Forgeworld Eldar Nightwing

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 14:53:39


 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




How does DFTS compare to Stormcloud in terms of pure flyer on flyer fun?
I have 10 flyers and would love a good old dogfight set of rules.
As a pure dogfight game, much better. Ranges and 'turn durations' are scaled back, and the game is better for it - you can play a nice twisty/turny fight on a 6x4 board, instead of crossing most of it every turn, and pretty much acting like once-per-two-turns artillery. There's a lot more interest in terms of damage - being forced to break to avoid shots, taking engine damage to slow or even stall a target, and (my personal favourite) damaging someone in such a way that the debris they've just shot off you tumbles away behind them.....potentially hitting the attacker if they're tailing you way too close!

The app for this costs $6.99 ? So you need to buy the app? Also does the app have the rules for the FW flier in it like the Eldar Nightwing? Basically I want to play stormcloud attack with my Dark Eldar Razorwing vs. my Forgeworld Eldar Nightwing


You don't need to buy the App if you're buying the boxed game - it has a copy of the rulebook in it.

If you're not interested in the boxed game (because there's no combination of the flyers that either you want or you can split with someone, or because you already own a bajillion flyers) then the App is a $6.99 way of getting the full rules and scenario set. It's the equivalent of buying a mini rulebook rather than the Dark Vengeance box.

The bad news is that Forge World have said on their facebook page that at the moment they have no plans to do Stormcloud attack rules for their flyers*. It wouldn't be hard to come up with Counts-as rules for them, though - just treat the Nightwing as a Starcannon/Pulsar armed Crimson Hunter, and you're pretty close.

* I and my friends will keep poking them at any opportunity, though.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
 
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