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 Mymearan wrote:
As for Necromunda...

There isn't really a good substitute for it that I know of.

- Infinity isn't campaign-focused, so not really the same genre (campaign development is the whole point of Necromunda)
- same with Rogue Stars
- Frostgrave only has one character you develop (or is it two? The apprentice as well) which makes it very different
- This is not a test seems the closest in that it has detailed campaign rules, and the setting is also quite Necromunda-ish. Probably the best replacement so far.

And Mordheim...

I would love if this came back in an AoS background. Contrary to what some people think there's plenty of room for gritty realism in AoS, depending on which realm you set it in and who the participants are. Just compare the quite cartoony 40k to the much more gritty 30k. Forge World could do the exact same thing with an AoS Mordheim. I wouldn't be opposed to Old World Mordheim but it isn't necessary IMO.

I don't know if it needs "gritty realism" for it to work in AoS. Using the high fantasy setting would probably be a better advantage than "the warband of mercenaries go into a abandoned city to look for loot".

The new game could focus on fantastical aspects like giant monsters stalking the city, the properties of the realm it's in effecting the city with things like constantly spawning undead or rivers of fire flowing through the streets and the ideas mentioned in the starter set like floating cities or fortresses made of living flesh.

All kinds of interesting options for players and GW's creativity open up.

That said, I guess I could see GW keeping safe with the older model of Mordheim. Just seems like wasted opportunity to expand the current setting. (IMO)

Baron Klatz wrote:
The new game could focus on fantastical aspects like giant monsters stalking the city, the properties of the realm it's in effecting the city with things like constantly spawning undead or rivers of fire flowing through the streets and the ideas mentioned in the starter set like floating cities or fortresses made of living flesh.

All kinds of interesting options for players and GW's creativity open up.

That said, I guess I could see GW keeping safe with the older model of Mordheim. Just seems like wasted opportunity to expand the current setting. (IMO)

Yeah... I can see some people would be interested in that, but it doesn't sound like something I'd pay money for.

Despite a couple of new AoS armies that I found really attractive (Flesh-Eaters, Sylvaneth, even the Beast Claw Raiders) I just haven't committed to playing AoS yet. Given the choice, I just like the more "realistic" (if I can use that word) fantasy setting of the Old World, as opposed to the OTT "rivers of fire and geysers of blood!!!" style of AoS where everything is dialed up to 11. That's why my fantasy gaming is currently limited to Lord of the Rings and Frostgrave.

YMMV of course.

That's certainly fair, I love low fantasy settings as well (thus the reason WFB was my favorite setting) but appreciate AoS for what it is.

We'll see what happens, though. I'm fortunate in that I'm good with either setting for Mordheim.

Baron Klatz wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
As for Necromunda...

There isn't really a good substitute for it that I know of.

- Infinity isn't campaign-focused, so not really the same genre (campaign development is the whole point of Necromunda)
- same with Rogue Stars
- Frostgrave only has one character you develop (or is it two? The apprentice as well) which makes it very different
- This is not a test seems the closest in that it has detailed campaign rules, and the setting is also quite Necromunda-ish. Probably the best replacement so far.

And Mordheim...

I would love if this came back in an AoS background. Contrary to what some people think there's plenty of room for gritty realism in AoS, depending on which realm you set it in and who the participants are. Just compare the quite cartoony 40k to the much more gritty 30k. Forge World could do the exact same thing with an AoS Mordheim. I wouldn't be opposed to Old World Mordheim but it isn't necessary IMO.

I don't know if it needs "gritty realism" for it to work in AoS. Using the high fantasy setting would probably be a better advantage than "the warband of mercenaries go into a abandoned city to look for loot".

The new game could focus on fantastical aspects like giant monsters stalking the city, the properties of the realm it's in effecting the city with things like constantly spawning undead or rivers of fire flowing through the streets and the ideas mentioned in the starter set like floating cities or fortresses made of living flesh.

All kinds of interesting options for players and GW's creativity open up.

That said, I guess I could see GW keeping safe with the older model of Mordheim. Just seems like wasted opportunity to expand the current setting. (IMO)

You already have a hyper-fantasy small skirmish though - the Path to Glory rules for AoS.

This is why I always feel a tad resentful when people who do enjoy AoS want any Mordheim revival to also take place in that setting; there is almost nothing, mechanically, for AoS fans to gain from it, while it would deny fans of the Warhammer World who presently have nothing - and had everything taken away in the first place so AoS could exist - what is likely to be the only chance to see GW develop new models and content for the setting for years, perhaps forever.

"New models and content"

^ This is basically the reason for wanting AoS Mordheim along with more great lore.

Your stance on WFB TT players needing something is an understandable argument, though.

^ And a crap-fest for the rules, so the fans of Mordheim still avoid it like the plague.

What the fans of AoS fail to understand is that there are a fair number of people that well and truly hate the AoS rules, and want nothing to do with them.

Who do not like the new model styles for AoS, and want nothing to do with them

Who think the 'great lore' is something scraped from the bottom of a birdcage with a putty knife.

The Auld Grump - and that is being kinder to the lore for AoS than it really deserves.

 notprop wrote:
Why do you need a substitute for either game? Both are free and there are plenty of companies GW and beyond that sell models and terrain to use.

A new edition (not version ala WHQuest) would be welcome though. Both games would benefit with terrain produced to the current standards that GW is capable of.

I play Necromunda already and certainly don't need a substitute. I was just replying to an earlier post. Would love a new edition indeed.

Baron Klatz wrote:
"New models and content"

^ This is basically the reason for wanting AoS Mordheim along with more great lore.

Your stance on WFB TT players needing something is an understandable argument, though.

Again though, you're already getting that. AoS is being actively developed, there are going to be dozens of releases with the new factions and aesthetic over the next few years, while a new version of Mordheim in the proper setting is the only avenue for support the WHF setting has short of someone sane taking over GW and restoring the original game. We'll have to agree to disagree on "great lore".

@TheAuldGrump, Well, I can't really say on the current Mordheim community's stance as I haven't read their forums in several months but last time I was there I read several battle reports of Mordheimers using the AoS system and loving it.

Maybe it changed though. A different spin on an old product didn't stop Silver Tower from being a popular game, though.

Also, I'm pretty sure very few AoS fans are oblivious to the old guard's dislike of AoS. Doesn't really effect us though and wanting more great games.

@Yodhrin, Yeah, good point. Maybe Mordheim will be fantasy's 30k?

The lore is definitely YMMV. I find it a entertaining read and very inspiring for projects, though. Easy to see how those of Wfb's low fantasy setting can find it distasteful though, agree to disagree indeed.

I have been toying with an idea of a AoS Mordheim setting, where maybe the city (which is massive like the Monte Cook D20 setting city of Ptolus) is a conflux of all the worlds, so aspects of each can be found all over it. Periodically gates/wormholes open and members from all the additional races find their way there.

So you could have Skaven inhabiting a giant network of caverns/dungeons and tunnels under the city, and even stranded warbands of Stormcast, etc.

Another cool alternative would be the Hinterlands fan-made skirmish AoS rules over on the AoS side of the forums, where you can have warbands of individual models pulled from their Warscrolls. Probably the only way I would p,ay AoS, frankly.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Another cool alternative would be the Hinterlands fan-made skirmish AoS rules over on the AoS side of the forums, where you can have warbands of individual models pulled from their Warscrolls. Probably the only way I would p,ay AoS, frankly.

Thanks for the plug, yes I wanted to add into this thread that I made Mordhiem style campaign system for AoS that has proven really popular so far (quickly becoming the most downloaded file on TGA). It's a full campaign system for Age of Sigmar with experience/injuries/loot/scenarios etc etc all summarised into 4 pages (to match the original AoS rules) where almost any model/Warscroll in the game can be used in your Warband.

If you are interested here is the TGA download link: Click Here

Baron Klatz wrote:
@TheAuldGrump, Well, I can't really say on the current Mordheim community's stance as I haven't read their forums in several months but last time I was there I read several battle reports of Mordheimers using the AoS system and loving it.

Maybe it changed though. A different spin on an old product didn't stop Silver Tower from being a popular game, though.

Also, I'm pretty sure very few AoS fans are oblivious to the old guard's dislike of AoS. Doesn't really effect us though and wanting more great games.

@Yodhrin, Yeah, good point. Maybe Mordheim will be fantasy's 30k?

The lore is definitely YMMV. I find it a entertaining read and very inspiring for projects, though. Easy to see how those of Wfb's low fantasy setting can find it distasteful though, agree to disagree indeed.

The local Mordheim community is pretty united against AoS - and is not just Old Guard. (Though the younger players are children of players that are of the Old Guard.)

Which is not to say that a Mordheimesque campaign game for AoS might not work for the AoS community - just that it won't attract a large segment of the folks that like Mordheim as it is.

The fact that Silver Tower is doing well for the local Warhammer store was a surprise - but what was the real surprise was that it is outselling the AoS boxed starter. It is selling better than anything for straight up AoS.

The Auld Grump - the boxed set for AoS is not selling well at all.

Problem with Necromunda and Mordheim is that their rulesets were tightly tied to former editions of respectively Warhammer 40k and Battle.

Necromunda is of course the oldest, and it really shows in the rules. It's a game from another time. I'm not especially joyful to play their archaic close combat system.

Let's face it, the rules will need to be changed. Unlike Blood Bowl, these games were never known for their solid basis. It's more alike to a wildly random RPG, where weird rules and total absence of balance weren't that important because it was there to forge your own warband and narrative as your band survives the battles. And because most people changed the rules anyway.

Mordheim is certainly the game I'm the less fond of. To me, it's an awful skirmish game with terrible campaign rules, where your band can be completely destroyed not because you played badly, but because you just had no luck with the dice or didn't take enough "coward heroes" to still be on the board at the end of the game just so that they can earn enough gold for your band to recruit/buy equipment. Because your grunts can't help to find more magic stones. Let's not talk about the useless armors, the completely unbalanced warbands and the awful magic system (you think AoS is bad? You didn't read how magic works in Mordheim).

No, sometimes it's good not to let nostalgy blind you and improve things where they need to be. If they release a new version of Necromunda and Mordheim with better rules - not just dull copy-and-paste work- I would gladly play those again.

Would love to try a revamped Mordhiem. Still is a great game, would like to see some new minis for it.

I've been writing up an outline for my own enjoyment about a new setting that would allow for a Mordheim situation, but among the Mortal Realms to allow all the new races of AoS. Think of a sort of a fantasy 'hiveworld' that has existed from the Time of Myths, kept seperate from all the mortal worlds, but with aspects of all of them. Individuals of all the peoples have found their way there over the centuries, but then cannot leave.

Trying to keep a sinister feel to things, where theories of the inhabitants run the gamut of an abandoned but still running experiment by Sigmar back during the Age of Myth as a prototype for High Azyr, to the entire thing being the creepy menagerie of a Greater Daemon of Tzeench who is like Marvel's Collector.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I've been writing up an outline for my own enjoyment about a new setting that would allow for a Mordheim situation, but among the Mortal Realms to allow all the new races of AoS. Think of a sort of a fantasy 'hiveworld' that has existed from the Time of Myths, kept seperate from all the mortal worlds, but with aspects of all of them. Individuals of all the peoples have found their way there over the centuries, but then cannot leave.

Trying to keep a sinister feel to things, where theories of the inhabitants run the gamut of an abandoned but still running experiment by Sigmar back during the Age of Myth as a prototype for High Azyr, to the entire thing being the creepy menagerie of a Greater Daemon of Tzeench who is like Marvel's Collector.

A bit like… grimdark Sigil?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigil_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#In_the_game
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sigil
http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Sigil
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Planescape#Sigil

 Sarouan wrote:
Problem with Necromunda and Mordheim is that their rulesets were tightly tied to former editions of respectively Warhammer 40k and Battle.

Necromunda is of course the oldest, and it really shows in the rules. It's a game from another time. I'm not especially joyful to play their archaic close combat system.

Yes, and those rules fit with the scale of game. The close combat system was a mess in regular 40K. In Necromunda however, where you'd have 10-15 models per side, it worked far better.

Kind of. My inspiration was Ptolus, a D20 setting of a city where conceivably, everything routinely possible in D&D could be an everyday occurrance somewhere in the city.

I was imagining, in the way of AoS having over-the-top elements like Godbeasts, giant Skaven walking settlements, and the like, a Mordheim-esque setting taken to the AoS extreme would be some sort of giant city about the size of the Empire of the Old World, where even places where there are fields to feed the populace and meadows are just places where thousands of years ago whole neighborhoods were torn down for materials to build higher elsewhere, and forests are where trees just grew up through the city and took it over, in the stylings of post apocalyptic cityscapes.

Skaven, Orruk, and Grot settlements exist in the miles and miles of underground tunnels and mines that were dug for the surface buildings, and in one place, a dark and strange Sylvaneth forest grows where a mysterious stranger planted one of Alarielle's soul amphorae hundreds of years ago. Everything is all surrounded by a ring of mist, from where noone ever returns, and none of the Realmgates will let anyone leave.

The Age of Chaos never came there for some reason, but that safety is an illusion, as at the same time everyone is trapped there with each other, dog eat dog, and (seemingly) no one knows why. Gangs and warbands fight over territory, or in the employ of political rivals, uncovered ancient artifacts, etc.

AoS has it's problems and need to fix their own wagon before spreading to another game... plus the newer releases have done nothing for me.

I would love to see Necromunda or some form of it be the next release after Blood bowl; With the Genestealer Cult Neophyte Hybrids being a perfect
fit of expansion to the game; This is what you want.. An entry level game with low model count and simpler rules; Then be able to cross over to 40k
with the models you already own.. Cross compatible.. get 40k players buying necromunda and necromunda players buying 40k.

With the new direction of "GW" I am not surprised they are already planning this...

if they ever release a new version of necromunda, Inq, or even better a mix of both games, I think I would finally forgive GW for the AOS fiasco

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sarouan wrote:
Problem with Necromunda and Mordheim is that their rulesets were tightly tied to former editions of respectively Warhammer 40k and Battle.

Necromunda is of course the oldest, and it really shows in the rules. It's a game from another time. I'm not especially joyful to play their archaic close combat system.

Yes, and those rules fit with the scale of game. The close combat system was a mess in regular 40K. In Necromunda however, where you'd have 10-15 models per side, it worked far better.

This is my feeling as well. The base mechanics themselves are a few decades, but I think they work quite well for Necromunda (certainly better than they did for 2nd ed). I'd welcome a new edition of necro if it was well done, but I don't think that Necromunda (at least not the NCE edition) is really lacking anything. It's a pretty smooth-playing ruleset.

Baron Klatz wrote:


@Yodhrin, Yeah, good point. Maybe Mordheim will be fantasy's 30k?

The lore is definitely YMMV. I find it a entertaining read and very inspiring for projects, though. Easy to see how those of Wfb's low fantasy setting can find it distasteful though, agree to disagree indeed.

I can only hope it will be. Another reason a revamped AoSheim wouldn't fly for me; expansions and fan rules. All the effort people went to making Khemri function, Lustria, the excellent Border Town Burning & Murder in Marienburg settings, the Sylvania vampire hunting campaign, Mousillon, Karak Azgal, not to mention dozens of additional warbands to play - all of that would be useless if they drastically revamp the rules and change the setting.

The sad thing is I probably wouldn't dislike AoS half as much if it hadn't come at the cost of WHF, if GW had just ended active support for WHF and moved on to an AoS that was billed as a Blood bowl-esque alternate reality, or that just shared some names and concepts with WHF without any attempt to explain or link the two as with the earliest versions of WHF and 40K. I quite enjoy playing Warcraft on occasion, I don't mind D&D(the combination of which with a dash of Norse mythology is essentially the AoS background), but I liked them in addition to my favourite setting, WHF. If GW had just kept it around even unsupported, I'd probably have picked up a couple of small AoS armies to play with mates who did really enjoy it, but as it is the whole thing just leaves a sour taste and I can't even enjoy AoS as a pulpy, occasional side game.

Anyway, we'll just have to wait and see. I hope that the new SGS recognise that at FW prices their market is going to have to be groggy vets and the best way to tap those wallets is with nostalgia, ie fundamentally the original product with modern production values, and that GW-proper won't interfere, but in the end GW will do what they like as-per and the rest of us just have to like it or lump it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Yes, and those rules fit with the scale of game. The close combat system was a mess in regular 40K. In Necromunda however, where you'd have 10-15 models per side, it worked far better.

Old 40k edition was made for a real skirmish scale battle, which is indeed why it worked far better with Necromunda. Still, there are plenty of rules that are far from being perfect. The main reason these games were so popular is because of their atmosphere/very specific setting and the attachment to your warband as it evolves with battles. Rules are very secondary in comparison, IMHO.

I still play Mordheim with my friends, but it's certainly not because I like the rules (quite the opposite). It's really about having a good time with them, the setting and the narrative we're building while our bands try to survive in this dark city. So if just the rules changed so that the current nonsense is removed from them and the mechanisms work smoother and clearer , I wouldn't mind at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:

...
The sad thing is I probably wouldn't dislike AoS half as much if it hadn't come at the cost of WHF...

I think that's the main reason of the "hate". It's not really about the rules, it's about the sudden change in setting. That it was utterly destroyed (and litterally; I mean, the planet was really destroyed).

To be honest, I think it's pretty easy to "remake" Mordheim with simply the AoS rules. Campaign rules aren't really that hard to do if you use the GW way, meaning random tables for everything. You could actually use a lot of the older ones with just a few adaptations here and there. Experience can be used to improve a few modifiers or add a few skills. After all, Mordheim began with just a few fan made rules from the Warhammer Battle system, so...it's not really that hard to do the same with the AoS rules.

And some people actually did it already.

-

 Bottle wrote:
In my opinion Necromunda has an excellent rule set. I don't find anything remotely clunky about it, and played a narrative campaign with the rules out the original books not to long ago. The scenario rules in particular are excellent (especially the Outlanders scenarios). And the cowboy style quick draw games have really good mechanics too.

If there was any amendments to be made, the only things that need to be changed in my opinion were the original Scavvies (putting a limit of gang size is enough) and a tweak in the closest targeting rules (as it doesn't work when combined with the 90' degree fire-arcs - we made a house rule to fix it).

This sort of brings me round to this OP which I haven't really commented in. I am a massive fan of Necromunda. For me it's the best GW game. Part of me doesn't want to see it rereleased though because I like the original how it is - for example I never played with the later additions of the rules.

It may mean that I don't buy anything new coming out for it unless they are going to work with the old gangs aesthetically (as I have 7 of the original gangs already).

One of the signs of the Apocalypse - I am agreeing with Bottle.

Though I will be honest - I would very much like to see the return/a new version of the terrain from Necromuda. It would work well for WH40K as well.

One of the local Necromunda groups has been using the Mantic Deadzone terrain - which is decent, but a bit repetitive. Which is decent, but a bit repetitive. Which is decent, but....

I am using PDF terrain from World Works Games - which is colorful, easily replaced, and modular in the extreme, but, well, PDF terrain. (Except here and there were I have some resin or have made my own terrain.) But don't say anything against my Cathedrae Noctis from the same company - which has seen use in so many games that it is ridiculous.


I also use the same terrain for Deadzone - but given a choice between Deadzone and Necromunda it is no contest - Necromunda is just plain more fun for me.

The Auld Grump

-

Funny. I always thought the actual plastic terrains for 40k were a goldmine for Necromunda games.

Sure, it has a price, but still, it gives a hell of a table when done well.

Making a new box with enough plastic terrain interesting enough for Necromunda would certainly make the price quite high. Using 3D cardboard terrain could be done, but that's not something GW did recently so I don't know if they would follow that way.

To be honest, it's more the resculpt of gangs that would be the big upgrade. Like I said, rules are secondary. Sure, there'll always be an "old guard" that will never want to hear about changes in any way, but I believe they are a minority.

Either way, a new reedition is the biggest opportunity to finally bring new blood in the games, or introduce nice extension to the universe. Maybe more mutated monsters? New gangs (maybe "vassal" minor gangs)? More characters? New weapons? The sky is the limit...and you never see it in the Underhive.

I'm not fussed about Necromunda terrain. As well as the original box set and Outlanders, I've already got an underhive's worth of my own industrial terrain, though I could probably stand to add a few more walkways.

For those who don't have any Necro terrain, Deadzone terrain is the absolute perfect substitute, no cardboard necessary. You need a TON of terrain to do Necromunda right and I shudder to think what the cost would be for anyone trying to do that with what ever terrain sets GW has or might come up with.

 Bottle wrote:
In my opinion Necromunda has an excellent rule set. I don't find anything remotely clunky about it, and played a narrative campaign with the rules out the original books not to long ago. The scenario rules in particular are excellent (especially the Outlanders scenarios). And the cowboy style quick draw games have really good mechanics too.

If there was any amendments to be made, the only things that need to be changed in my opinion were the original Scavvies (putting a limit of gang size is enough) and a tweak in the closest targeting rules (as it doesn't work when combined with the 90' degree fire-arcs - we made a house rule to fix it).

This sort of brings me round to this OP which I haven't really commented in. I am a massive fan of Necromunda. For me it's the best GW game. Part of me doesn't want to see it rereleased though because I like the original how it is - for example I never played with the later additions of the rules.

It may mean that I don't buy anything new coming out for it unless they are going to work with the old gangs aesthetically (as I have 7 of the original gangs already).

This is roughly my opinion as well, though I think that NCE is a real improvement over the original rulebook (ORB). Even though it doesn't fundamentally alter the mechanics in any notable way in balances out many things, clarifies even more and smooths the rough edges nicely.

I'm in about the same boat when it comes to figures as well. If they don't aesthetically work with the old gangs I already have, I probably won't pick up much. I've already got Escher, Orlock, Cawdor and Van Saar gangs based on the original figs and a Delaque gang made from East Riding Miniatures "Slicks" figures. I don't have a Goliath gang or any of the outlander gangs though, so if one of them was released in a new style or if a new gang was introduced I might go for it.

It'd be quite a change to be purchasing new GW product. Not something I've really done for 5 years or so.

Eilif wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:


I strongly encourage (as I have before) folks looking into Necromunda to use the "Necromunda Community Edition" from yaktribe.org It's not a massive difference, but it tweaks virtually all the issues and imbalances that were in the earlier "official" editions. It also puts changes in red ink so you can go back and see what the changes were.

I've tried the NCE, awful. I'll stick to the LRB

Silent Puffin? wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think there shouldn't be much shooting happening at all outside Overwatch, and that has a hefty BS penalty.

That would require unfeasible quantities of terrain, nearly a solid board..

Currently working on a table like that