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2017/01/13 01:42:59
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Traditio wrote:Arson Fire wrote: Traditio wrote:Arson Fire wrote:From another point of view, 50 conscripts with a ministorum priest wins against Magnus most of the time. He's never breaking away from that combat.
That's only 175 points, and soundly neuters Magnus for the game. So clearly he must be worth less than that.
Or maybe the conscript blob should be worth over 650 points.
If your conscript blob and priest can tie up Magnus in close combat, then the person playing Magnus needs to git gud.
Then they can just sit on objectives while magnus floats around plinking off conscripts with his D beam.
He can do that all game if he wants. The conscripts don't really mind. They still win.
Are you people really that myopic?
The d beam isn't the only psychic power that Magnus knows. He has access to like 15 different psychic powers, his chances of pulling off those psychic powers with minimal warp charges is a veritable certainty, and he CAN'T roll perils.
Magnus should be so costed that he should be practically unusable outside of very high points (4000+) games.
Ouf you obviously never played magnus... Grab your dices and have fun casting powers with 5 WCs... You will figure out pretty fast that it's not as good as shooting especially when you have to pay for extra psykers to steal their WCs and make them useless. I would like to hear what you think of the WK or SS as well ? Should we play them only in 4k + games as well ?
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2017/01/13 01:43:56
Subject: Re:By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Oh, sure. It goes from "Wow, OP fantastic shooting" to "Eh, not bad. Better than firing a single scatter laser."
In addition, Vector Strike counts as firing a weapon, so it loses you 6 shots.
I don't follow. Where in the rules does it say that you can't vector strike and then fire your guns in the shooting phase?
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2017/01/13 01:45:07
Subject: Re:By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Hey-you have a good 40% chance of getting off the D-Beam with 5 dice!
Although the D-Shot is a good 96-97% chance of going off with just 5. Still, that's only one model dead a turn.
Edit: Read the Vector Strike rules. It counts as firing a gun. So you can only fire one in the following phase.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 01:45:36
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2017/01/13 01:45:26
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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alex09 wrote:Ouf you obviously never played magnus... Grab your dices and have fun casting powers with 5 WCs...
You harness on a 2+ and can't roll perils. You also have excellent close combat capabilities.
Git gud.
You will figure out pretty fast that it's not as good as shooting especially when you have to pay for extra psykers to steal their WCs and make them useless. I would like to hear what you think of the WK or SS as well ? Should we play them only in 4k + games as well ?
The WK and SS are hideously underpriced and OP. They should both cost way more than they do now.
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2017/01/13 01:46:18
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Traditio wrote:alex09 wrote:Ouf you obviously never played magnus... Grab your dices and have fun casting powers with 5 WCs...
You harness on a 2+ and can't roll perils. You also have excellent close combat capabilities.
Git gud.
You will figure out pretty fast that it's not as good as shooting especially when you have to pay for extra psykers to steal their WCs and make them useless. I would like to hear what you think of the WK or SS as well ? Should we play them only in 4k + games as well ?
The WK and SS are hideously underpriced and OP. They should both cost way more than they do now.
Yes, close combat capabilities that WILL get you tar-pitted and get rid of your "immortality".
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2017/01/13 01:48:25
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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JNAProductions wrote:Yes, close combat capabilities that WILL get you tar-pitted and get rid of your "immortality".
1. Magnus doesn't magically lose his invuln while in close combat.
2. He also doesn't lose the ability to cast psychic powers while in close combat.
3. Even on the ground, good luck catching him. He moves 12 inches in the movement phase and ignores terrain.
Magnus is more difficult to tarpit than a wraithknight.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 01:48:42
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2017/01/13 01:49:53
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Traditio wrote:JNAProductions wrote:Yes, close combat capabilities that WILL get you tar-pitted and get rid of your "immortality".
1. Magnus doesn't magically lose his invuln while in close combat.
2. He also doesn't lose the ability to cast psychic powers while in close combat.
3. Even on the ground, good luck catching him. He moves 12 inches in the movement phase and ignores terrain.
Magnus is more difficult to tarpit than a wraithknight.
1-No, but now anyone can hit him on their normal BS.
2-12 out of 15 of his powers, I believe, are witchfires. So yes-he DOES lose the ability to cast most of his powers in CC.
3-Assault Marines. Vanguard Veterans. Plague Drones. Dreadknights. Bikes of any sort...
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2017/01/13 01:53:54
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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JNAProductions wrote:1-No, but now anyone can hit him on their normal BS.
So what? You still have to roll to hit, to wound and then by pass his save. And then, once all of that happens, you have to survive his round of attacks, not fail your leadership check to fall back and/or get swept.
Good luck on that one.
2-12 out of 15 of his powers, I believe, are witchfires. So yes-he DOES lose the ability to cast most of his powers in CC.
He has non-witchfire psychic powers.
3-Assault Marines. Vanguard Veterans. Plague Drones. Dreadknights. Bikes of any sort...
Lol. Sure. Because any of those things is going to be able to beat Magnus in close combat...or even hold him for a turn or two. Or wound him, for that matter.
I mean, sure, JNA, now that you mention it, if I ever face Magnus, let me make sure that I bring my ravenguard vanguard veterans. They'll mess him up real nice. #Sarcasm.
Seriously, dude. Do you even read the stuff that you type before hitting the "submit" button?
Utterly ridiculous.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 01:55:18
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2017/01/13 02:00:05
Subject: Re:By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Skitarii Vanguard kill him easily if he's on the ground. I've done the math before. It takes only 2 max squads of Vanguard to one-turn kill him. That's 200 points. 200 points. (Edit: Okay, technically it takes 20.16 Vanguard. But let's go overboard and take 3 squads! Yeah, that'll kill him dead.)
Yes, he does! But his witchfires are the really scary ones. So if he's in close combat, he's pretty damn neutered.
And all it takes is a squad of maybe 8 to tie him up for a turn. They don't have to wound him-just feed him some cheap unit every turn, and he won't be able to do much of anything. Or tie him up for long enough for your powerful stuff to come mess him up. There are answers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 02:00:44
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2017/01/13 02:05:52
Subject: Re:By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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JNAProductions wrote:Skitarii Vanguard kill him easily if he's on the ground. I've done the math before. It takes only 2 max squads of Vanguard to one-turn kill him. That's 200 points. 200 points. (Edit: Okay, technically it takes 20.16 Vanguard. But let's go overboard and take 3 squads! Yeah, that'll kill him dead.)
The problem with postings like this is that you are making unreasonable assumptions. Why would Magnus be on the ground? If he's on the ground, why would he be within range?
If you have to make all sorts of unlikely assumptions, then what you are saying isn't reasonable.
And even if it were, so the feth what? Skitarri vanguard is one unit in one codex. How many codex entries are there in the game?
Yes, he does! But his witchfires are the really scary ones. So if he's in close combat, he's pretty damn neutered.
What's "scary" is his durability. The fact that he's that he's practically indestructible and has more damage dealing capacity than a wraithknight: that's what makes him OP.
And all it takes is a squad of maybe 8 to tie him up for a turn. They don't have to wound him-just feed him some cheap unit every turn, and he won't be able to do much of anything. Or tie him up for long enough for your powerful stuff to come mess him up. There are answers.
Again, you're just making unreasonable assumptions here.
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2017/01/13 02:09:02
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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You were the one who just said he's on the ground! I'll find the quote...
Traditio wrote:alex09 wrote:Ouf you obviously never played magnus... Grab your dices and have fun casting powers with 5 WCs...
You harness on a 2+ and can't roll perils. You also have excellent close combat capabilities.
Git gud.
You will figure out pretty fast that it's not as good as shooting especially when you have to pay for extra psykers to steal their WCs and make them useless. I would like to hear what you think of the WK or SS as well ? Should we play them only in 4k + games as well ?
The WK and SS are hideously underpriced and OP. They should both cost way more than they do now.
Excellent CC capabilities don't matter unless you're on the ground.
In addition, Sterngaurd Veterans-a unit from YOUR CODEX OF CHOICE-do much the similar thing.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2017/01/13 02:11:45
Subject: Re:By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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JNAProductions wrote:Skitarii Vanguard kill him easily if he's on the ground. I've done the math before. It takes only 2 max squads of Vanguard to one-turn kill him. That's 200 points. 200 points. (Edit: Okay, technically it takes 20.16 Vanguard. But let's go overboard and take 3 squads! Yeah, that'll kill him dead.)
Yes, he does! But his witchfires are the really scary ones. So if he's in close combat, he's pretty damn neutered.
And all it takes is a squad of maybe 8 to tie him up for a turn. They don't have to wound him-just feed him some cheap unit every turn, and he won't be able to do much of anything. Or tie him up for long enough for your powerful stuff to come mess him up. There are answers.
Dude let it go, Traditio is right, with 5 WCs you can easily cast 12 powers, cultists aren't a dumb taxe to run magnus ( they are obviously much better than scatter bikes ), Magnus can't be kill on the ground especially versus imperial knights or any stomps because magnus is immortal...
#really?
Even 4 centurions can kill magnus in a alpha strike... and the major issue is that you have to pay so many extra WCs to make magnus very strong and those psykers do nothing on the battlefield... Just like your cultists...
Moreover, if you kill the other psykers, magnus is really a piece of gak which can only fire 1 D shot at 650 pts haha
Honestly, after reading all the posts, and considering the whole picture, I think magnus is worth 600 pts.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/13 02:14:29
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2017/01/13 02:17:44
Subject: Re:By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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alex0911 wrote:Dude let it go, Traditio is right, with 5 WCs you can easily cast 12 powers, cultists aren't a dumb taxe to run magnus ( they are obviously much better than scatter bikes ), Magnus can't be kill on the ground especially versus imperial knights or any stomps because magnus is immortal...
#really?
Yeah, if that's what you got from my posting, then you should probably write to your congressman about the horrible reading education in your district.
#JustSaying
Even 4 centurions can kill magnus in a alpha strike
Assuming that the opponent is running centurions, is running them in such a way as to be able to alpha strike them AND gets turn 1.
You can't make those assumptions.
.. and the major issue is that you have to pay so many extra WCs to make magnus very strong and those psykers do nothing on the battlefield... Just like your cultists...
Moreover, if you kill the other psykers, magnus is really a piece of gak which can only fire 1 D shot at 650 pts haha
Honestly, after reading all the posts, and considering the whole picture, I think magnus is worth 600 pts.
If the 1 d-shot is the only possible use that you can think of for Magnus, then you're just a bad player. Git gud.
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2017/01/13 02:19:31
Subject: Re:By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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So what would YOU use him for? Apparently, he should never touch the ground, so on his own, you can only consistently get off one WC 3 power, which admittedly can be the Flickering Fire for horde control or the D-Shot for big stuff.
Oh, wait, he can also Vector strike! So that's one extra S8 AP2 hit.
And... What else, exactly?
Edit: Also, if your opponent is bringing Magnus, I'd expect you to bring your A-Game as well. Magnus is not the sort of thing you spring unexpected on an opponent-that's just rude. So yes, you probably SHOULD be fielding Centurions or something similar.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 02:20:21
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2017/01/13 02:26:13
Subject: Re:By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Traditio wrote:alex0911 wrote:Dude let it go, Traditio is right, with 5 WCs you can easily cast 12 powers, cultists aren't a dumb taxe to run magnus ( they are obviously much better than scatter bikes ), Magnus can't be kill on the ground especially versus imperial knights or any stomps because magnus is immortal...
#really?
Yeah, if that's what you got from my posting, then you should probably write to your congressman about the horrible reading education in your district.
#JustSaying
Even 4 centurions can kill magnus in a alpha strike
Assuming that the opponent is running centurions, is running them in such a way as to be able to alpha strike them AND gets turn 1.
You can't make those assumptions.
.. and the major issue is that you have to pay so many extra WCs to make magnus very strong and those psykers do nothing on the battlefield... Just like your cultists...
Moreover, if you kill the other psykers, magnus is really a piece of gak which can only fire 1 D shot at 650 pts haha
Honestly, after reading all the posts, and considering the whole picture, I think magnus is worth 600 pts.
If the 1 d-shot is the only possible use that you can think of for Magnus, then you're just a bad player. Git gud.
I won a few GTs for the reccord, ofc the D shot isnt everything, in fact, taking control of an ennemy unit is better in many occasions. However, you can't claim that casting 1 normal beam or str 6 witchfire d6 assault or a template is worth 650 pts ?
What I'm saying is, stop only looking at Magnus stats line and take a look at the taxes, the WC's addiction of magnus and the fact that flying a whole game sucks since you waste your CC ability and can't score any objectives.
By the way, don't play the smarty pants guy which knows everything when you are obviously thinking that casting 4-5 powers is better then the firepower that tau can bring for the same points.
Moreover, magnus can be easily ignored which is a bit sacarstic for a 650 pts piece. If he gets on the ground, just make sure to tight him up with worthless units....
Please show me your list with magnus and you might discover that he is hard to use and I can do better any days with taus / eldars / necrons.
In fact, pure daemon is so much better than magnus with omniscient oracles and herald s anarchic.
Open your eyes
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 02:29:48
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2017/01/13 02:29:35
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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Just for discussion, don't forget Devolution and Treason are both very good spells against Flyrant spam.
I would say Table is rather perceptive when he said people have not really learned how to play Magnus yet. Either with or against.
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2017/01/13 02:30:56
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Yoyoyo wrote:Just for discussion, don't forget Devolution and Treason are both very good spells against Flyrant spam.
I would say Table is rather perceptive when he said people have not really learned how to play Magnus yet. Either with or against.
Flyrant spam isnt a thing anymore...
That list hasn't won any tournaments lately and it won't get any better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:[/
Magnus is a great unit don't get me wrong ! But he isnt as good as other things we see often in competitive. [size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post: Here was my take on Magnus FYI Traditio
Still not good enough to beat top lists
1850
CAD Thousand Son 895
Sorcerer Mark of Tzeentch, Lvl 3, 125
Cultists x10 Mark of tzeentch 60
Cultists x10 Mark of tzeentch 60
Magnus the red 650
Daemon CAD 540
Fateweaver 300
Blue horrors x11 55
Blue horrors x11 55
Blue horrors x11 55
Screamers x3 75
Herald Anarchic 415
Herald Lvl 3 Tzeentch, Disc, Grimoire 150
Herald Lvl 3 Tzeentch, Disc, Paradox 145
Herald Lvl 3 Tzeentch, Disc 120
Can you do better Mr Cocky ?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/13 02:46:35
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2017/01/13 03:11:40
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp
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alex0911 wrote:Flyrant spam isnt a thing anymore...
That list hasn't won any tournaments lately and it won't get any better.
That really wasn't the point.
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2017/01/13 03:12:39
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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I think he's costed pretty accurately.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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2017/01/13 03:14:06
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I think so too ( 600-650 IMO )
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2017/01/13 13:30:12
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I'd like to playtest at 775-800. GW chronically undercosts FMCs and MCs with tough defenses in particular.
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2017/01/13 17:24:33
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Martel732 wrote:I'd like to playtest at 775-800. GW chronically undercosts FMCs and MCs with tough defenses in particular.
there are several FMCs and MCs that are very over costed. and Magnus isn't actually very durable until you stuff assuming his invul save is getting creased by support units in his army.
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2017/01/13 18:00:22
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Clousseau
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Martel732 wrote:I'd like to playtest at 775-800. GW chronically undercosts FMCs and MCs with tough defenses in particular.
Have you playtested 650 and found it overpowered?
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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2017/01/13 18:26:56
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I've played it, and while he destroyed an army by himself, the rest of my army was pretty terrible, relegating itself to using powers for survival (Ahriman kept casting Invisibility on his own unit of massive warp-generating power), and just feeding warp charge into Magnus. Also got a lucky 6 on a Gaze of Magnus D-beam against a Knight at max range, and was facing off against Imperial Guard, so it's not the most stringent of testings ;-)
That's what backs up my opinion that he's not really worth 650 in a completely on his own sort of way, but he ends up being worth more than 650 once you have sufficient back-up.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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2017/01/13 18:33:24
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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I'm not sure if one of my biggest concerns about Magnus is unfounded. I'm concerned with him (like every other big Daemon/CSM guy) is not being a GMC, hence he could be Stomped or D-weaponed. Has anyone actually had it happen/done it?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/13 19:06:58
~1.5k
Successful Trades: Ashrog (1), Iron35 (1), Rathryan (3), Leth (1), Eshm (1), Zeke48 (1), Gorkamorka12345 (1),
Melevolence (2), Ascalam (1), Swanny318, (1) ScootyPuffJunior, (1) LValx (1), Jim Solo (1), xSoulgrinderx (1), Reese (1), Pretre (1) |
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2017/01/13 18:53:03
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It is very much unfounded, because he definitely does have Eternal Warrior.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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2017/01/13 18:54:11
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Marmatag wrote:Martel732 wrote:I'd like to playtest at 775-800. GW chronically undercosts FMCs and MCs with tough defenses in particular.
Have you playtested 650 and found it overpowered?
I've only seen this guy once in a team game. But he was pretty stupid good.
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2017/01/13 18:59:35
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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he seems appropriately costed for what you get.
comparing him to 2 wraithknights seems odd as WK are undercosted and should go up about 50 points
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10000 points 7000
6000
5000
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2017/01/13 19:08:07
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Yarium wrote:It is very much unfounded, because he definitely does have Eternal Warrior.
Whoops! Re edited my post. What I meant was "Because he's not a GMC, he could be Stomped or D'ed on a 6 to be removed from play". I know it's unlikely to happen, but that was always my biggest concern about him (and the Primarchs) is that they could be removed on a 6.
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~1.5k
Successful Trades: Ashrog (1), Iron35 (1), Rathryan (3), Leth (1), Eshm (1), Zeke48 (1), Gorkamorka12345 (1),
Melevolence (2), Ascalam (1), Swanny318, (1) ScootyPuffJunior, (1) LValx (1), Jim Solo (1), xSoulgrinderx (1), Reese (1), Pretre (1) |
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2017/01/13 20:19:44
Subject: By Curiosity: how many points is Magnus really worth ?
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Clousseau
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jreilly89 wrote: Yarium wrote:It is very much unfounded, because he definitely does have Eternal Warrior.
Whoops! Re edited my post. What I meant was "Because he's not a GMC, he could be Stomped or D'ed on a 6 to be removed from play". I know it's unlikely to happen, but that was always my biggest concern about him (and the Primarchs) is that they could be removed on a 6.
The right circumstances can remove anything, really. In GW's live battle, he was 1-shotted by Hellfrost, which was like a 2% chance to happen, or something ridiculously low.
I think Magnus needs more playtesting from the community before we slam our faces into the "overpowered alarm button."
Obviously his power shifts as you think of him as a percentage of your army. At 3,000 points he's roughly 1/5 of your army. At 1,000 points, he's roughly 2/3 of your army. This goes back to my main point about GW balancing, they should publish point levels for specific kinds of games. (Small, medium, large, etc). It would help us frame any kind of discussion on how best to use Magnus, or what his intended use case is.
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Galas wrote:I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote:He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic. |
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