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Made in gb
Nasty Nob






I can't seem to find any of the original threads, but when we had 'ork wish lists' a few months ago I seem to recall quite a few things coming up repeatedly which the new codex has given us:

Better internal balance (flash gits, tankbustas and kommandos were all mentioned frequently as needing a significant buff... all of them got it).

Less reliance on cover, since 'everyone ignores cover now'... they changed the KFF to an invulnerable save and let us add painboys wherever we wanted as an alternative.

Ranged anti-tank (and anti-MC)... now we can spam masses of cheap S 8 shots, many of them with AP 2 or the ability to re-roll failed armour penetrations.

A meaningful Waaagh! rule and better chances of getting into close combat... now we are the only faction which can run and then charge.

I also seem to remember quite a few people saying they weren't bothered about their army becoming significantly more powerful.

Now we've got good information on the new ork codex and it seems that ork players are mostly rather upset even though from what I can see GW gave them exactly what they said they wanted.

   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





There's a few issues though.


Less reliance on cover, since 'everyone ignores cover now'... they changed the KFF to an invulnerable save and let us add painboys wherever we wanted as an alternative.


Except the KFF is now on a per model basis, and the painboy is in a very, very contested slot.


Better internal balance (flash gits, tankbustas and kommandos were all mentioned frequently as needing a significant buff... all of them got it).


Kommando's are still pretty bad without the charge, tankbusters are much better, but flash gitz likely will still see no use.



A meaningful Waaagh! rule and better chances of getting into close combat... now we are the only faction which can run and then charge.


Requires a specific HQ now though, further herding the HQ slot.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/23 10:11:23


 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






I thnk there is a strong initial reaction.

Here are a couple of the worst offenders...

Mob rules
KFF per Model
Lack of FOC Modification via HQ
Congested HQ
Ghaz as LOW and slight Nerfs...
Shootas Boyz 7pts


Now, I agree the Mob rules are Meh
And lac of FOC Modification is for a codex designed for 7th edition FOC/Unbound world.
HQ Congestion is alleviated by OrK Detachment, which works even in Single CAD/2 Detachment Tournamnts
Ghaz as LOW helps HQ congestion, but he took a hit.
At least Boyz got free Stikbombs...and with how much faster Orks can be in assault Choppy Boyz may make a comeback.

I'm waiting to get my hands on a real codex before making judgement, but I wouldn't be surprised if people are able to pull some good lists out of it. Lacking Objective secured on the Ork detachment hurts, but hey, they can still run CADs.

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Made in us
FOW Player




Frisco, TX

I think people wanted to not lose Wazdakka and Zogwort, FOC-shifting Nobz/Meganobz/Bikes/Dreadz, Looted Wagons and Ghaz.

Personally, I wanted Klan Roolz back.

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Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition. Burnawagons are a bit better now, Boomwagons suck.
   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Rochester, MN

 Yonan wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!

That's the general "bad taste in my mouth" that I'm getting from this release. I was actually thinking about starting an Ork army, but... now I'm not too sure. Whether the codex is competitive or not is besides the point - it looks like it has bad internal balance and weird FOC choices, which will restrict what sort of army you can build while still having it be effective (the Tyranids codex is a big offender of this, as you basically have to play with one of the formations if you want to be competitive).
   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

 DanielBeaver wrote:
That's the general "bad taste in my mouth" that I'm getting from this release. I was actually thinking about starting an Ork army, but... now I'm not too sure. Whether the codex is competitive or not is besides the point - it looks like it has bad internal balance and weird FOC choices, which will restrict what sort of army you can build while still having it be effective (the Tyranids codex is a big offender of this, as you basically have to play with one of the formations if you want to be competitive).

Act now! Your chance to not waste the $50 you spent on your codex with several small payments of $18 each (so I hear) for several lines of additional rules that will let you compete!

Yeah, bad taste is right.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/23 14:40:08


 
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




I was also thinking about starting orks... then realised they are the most expensive army point for point (in £ terms) that it would cost an even heftier megaton of cash than normal to get upto 2000pts!
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob






 DanielBeaver wrote:
...it looks like it has bad internal balance and weird FOC choices, which will restrict what sort of army you can build while still having it be effective...


That's totally the opposite of the impression that I'm getting. I think this might be the codex with the best internal balance for years. There are literally two units (nobs and kans) which stand out as sub-par and everything else seems like a valid choice compared to the alternatives.

Do I take the more effective shoota boys as troops, or the cheaper slugga boys? Or the completely ineffective but dirt cheap gretchin?

Do I want kannons, rokkit buggies, deffkoptas, tankbustas or a blitza bomma for taking out vehicles? They all have their merits.

For harassing the flanks of the enemy, do I want kommandos, bikes or stormboys? Or maybe a dakkajet or burna bomma?

Is it better to have a big mek with a force field, or a painboy to protect high value troops? Or both?

Do I want to transport my units in cheap, fast, fragile trukks or expensive battlewagons?

With the last codex, there were really major internal balance issues. Big Meks were pretty much the default HQ, everyone took shoota boys as troops and lootas as elites, transported in battlewagons and supported by dakkajets and deffkoptas. Flash Gits, stormboys, kommandos, weirdboys and many other units were all rather terrible.

   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





I happen to like Flash Gitz and would have built the new Orks had I not started BA who are getting a new codex later this year if the rumors can be believed.

Can't wait to play against the new and improved Orks.

In the works

Warhammer 40k. Enjoy it or go play something else. Life is too short to complain.
 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 Perfect Organism wrote:
 DanielBeaver wrote:
...it looks like it has bad internal balance and weird FOC choices, which will restrict what sort of army you can build while still having it be effective...


That's totally the opposite of the impression that I'm getting. I think this might be the codex with the best internal balance for years. There are literally two units (nobs and kans) which stand out as sub-par and everything else seems like a valid choice compared to the alternatives.

Do I take the more effective shoota boys as troops, or the cheaper slugga boys? Or the completely ineffective but dirt cheap gretchin?

Do I want kannons, rokkit buggies, deffkoptas, tankbustas or a blitza bomma for taking out vehicles? They all have their merits.

For harassing the flanks of the enemy, do I want kommandos, bikes or stormboys? Or maybe a dakkajet or burna bomma?

Is it better to have a big mek with a force field, or a painboy to protect high value troops? Or both?

Do I want to transport my units in cheap, fast, fragile trukks or expensive battlewagons?

With the last codex, there were really major internal balance issues. Big Meks were pretty much the default HQ, everyone took shoota boys as troops and lootas as elites, transported in battlewagons and supported by dakkajets and deffkoptas. Flash Gits, stormboys, kommandos, weirdboys and many other units were all rather terrible.


I'm going to have to agree with this. Although, I think I read base Nobs are cheaper, its Nobs on Bikes which are the same cost and you can KFF on a Bike if need be too. Cheap foot Nobs rolling out of a Truck or Battlewagon may be viable. That is the exciting part, so many options.

And adding a Painboy to a 180 point unit of boyz is 90pts more boyz for 50pts. That is a steal and cheap available FNP is going to really prove to be amazing in this new dex, especially when those Boyz are moving 6" Running D6" and Charging 2d6" or in Trucks and Battlewagons moving 6" disembarking 6" running D6" and charging 2d6+2" with boarding Planks. That an average of 17.5" average assault threat on foot and 24.5" out of a Boarding Plank Transport. That alone is pretty phenomenal and it will be our first taste of a possible CC army.

I mean 30 Boyz with an average assault threat of 17.5" and FNP, give them cover and they are extremely tough for anyone to remove. That base 230pts and equivalent of 45 T4 wounds vs anything that isn't S8.

Rockits, Rockits everywhere!

From what I've seen so far the book at good internal balance. As far as External balance it is not on par with Eldar, nor should it be as Eldar was an Oops on the power curve, its likely on par with most middle of the road Codices.

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Made in us
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Personally I wanted options included in my dex, not things like looted wagons that should be in the main book, or dataslates I will be expected to pay for later to run the nobs and kans again as troops. I would have liked cheaper flyers, more diversity in our supports, not everything good in heavy.

And definatley better ways to get stuck in combat in the overly shooty era of 40k. Mob rule was a huge nerf. trukks killing probably half your guys now is a huge nerf.

Not even going to bother with psychic powers anymore. You either come to the table with 15ish power dice, or you get shut down by your opponent who does have them. Grey knight with inquisitor, elder, and demons are the only ones allowed to play. Space marines with a librarian wont even get to cast a spell, the demon player will just throw 10 dice to dispel. We are no better off.

I wanted to see nob bikers cheaper, and remain as troops with restrictions. Mabye one klaw for every 3 or 4 guys, take away the painboy option like meganobz.

Basically the likes in this for me (mek guns, worthwhile koptas) have been largely drowned out by the garbage.

warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

I wanted looted lemun russ tanks with BS8.

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Made in gb
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





UK

 kronk wrote:
I wanted looted lemun russ tanks with BS8.


Firing mind bullets and packing serpent shields?

But seriously what I wanted out of the ork codex was to have a number of viable, fun builds. Whilst there is currently a strong reaction to the codex (largely negative) a read through for me just seems fun, alot of cool relics and warlord traits, points dropped largely across the board.

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I actually wanted the ork codex like 3 weeks ago...

   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






 Yonan wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!


Get off it.

The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

There is no "Day 1 DLC" to it, just that the unit in question could not be re-added to already printed books.

This is a case where GW actually listened to their fanbase and you want to complain about it because you seem to think they should have just burned all the Ork Codices they already printed and Re-printed new ones, while raising the Prices of everything to make up for that loss right?

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




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The cynicism fits the hobby pretty well, though.
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan






Austin, Texas.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
 Yonan wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!


Get off it.

The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

There is no "Day 1 DLC" to it, just that the unit in question could not be re-added to already printed books.

This is a case where GW actually listened to their fanbase and you want to complain about it because you seem to think they should have just burned all the Ork Codices they already printed and Re-printed new ones, while raising the Prices of everything to make up for that loss right?


Im pretty sure the rumors for the white dwarf looted wagon release came out about the same time that the no looted wagon in the codex rumors came out....In fact I think the 2 rumors were part of each other.

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Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Oceanic

i wanted my nob bikers cheaper.
i wanted to run and charge

except i got:
nob bikers can't be troops
i don't like Nobs in my 30 man shoota blobs. i don't like stikk bombs and it seems i get free stick bombs but my shoota's are 7 points now. you can keep your free stikky bombs.
my lootas are now HS
my deffdred can't be a troop
my big guns took a big hit, because i fielded 3 units of 3. now i have to dump the deff, or run an unbound list which i don't like.
also, i hate that my dakkajet took such a huge nerf. from 18 shots on a waagh to 10. wow. now its a completely PoS model. sorry. its not going to be effective anymore. at str 6 shots i needed those high shot numbers to effectively kill some flyers and also kill certain armor.

overall. the codex is a disappointment to me. yeah, theres good stuff but a lot of the changes seem unnecessary and ultimately decimated my 1850 list. and I think all our lists were ruined to accommodate the new models they want us to buy. sorry, i don't like flash hits. they don't impress me. they're too pricy. I don't like the stompa-naught things. i don't like the new mek guns.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/24 00:58:11


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I wanted to lose all invulnerable saves on my characters! Too bad GW frelled things up by giving me a ++ save with the KFF, but at least they made it models only instead of units and only vs shooting!



Said no frelling Ork player ever.
   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Im pretty sure the rumors for the white dwarf looted wagon release came out about the same time that the no looted wagon in the codex rumors came out....In fact I think the 2 rumors were part of each other.

Not to mention, if GW were doing it "for the fans" it would have been released free online, not in a limited run magazine that no one buys. It was purely a way to prop up magazine sales and in general, get more money out of players for something that was cut - for whatever reason - from the previous edition.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
you want to complain about it because you seem to think they should have just burned all the Ork Codices they already printed and Re-printed new ones, while raising the Prices of everything to make up for that loss right?

I want to complain because GW thought it would be a good idea to remove a unit from the codex that people had gone through a lot of effort to make models for. I'll include some examples, there's plenty more:
Spoiler:



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/06/24 01:48:13


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

As others have pointed out, the news that the wagon was being released in white dwarf came at the same time as the news that it wasn't int he codex. How exactly was this driven by demand?


...because you seem to think they should have just burned all the Ork Codices they already printed and Re-printed new ones, while raising the Prices of everything to make up for that loss right?

I can't speak for everyone else, but what I think is that they should never have been taking options out of the codex just because they haven't bothered to release a model at any point in the last 15 years.

Particularly this one, when they could very easily have just offered a bundle deal with an Imperial tank and a sprue of Ork Gubbinz and called it a day.



Wazdakka has been in the game since 2nd edition. And again, removed rather than release a model. All because since the Chapterhouse verdict GW are worried about other companies 'stealing' sales of things that GW don't make themselves.

You know how else to fix that, without annoying existing players? Just release the damn models yourself!

So, on topic - What I wanted from the Ork codex was to not have existing models invalidated due to GW's short-sighted business practices.

I also wanted an army that is playable in a reasonable amount of time rather than having more random tables added in.

Along the way, I would have liked to not have my warbikes nerfed and my stormboyz made even worse than they already were.


Tankbustas having a transport is nice, though. Yay.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wichita, KS

 Perfect Organism wrote:
I can't seem to find any of the original threads, but when we had 'ork wish lists' a few months ago I seem to recall quite a few things coming up repeatedly which the new codex has given us:

The way I see it, the most important things that make a good codex is a diversity of builds that all have a reasonable chance of dealing with the basic threats in 40K (Hoards, Deathstars, Mech, Fliers).

The way I see the Ork codex it should have at least 4 viable lists.
1) Green Tide. <- Shoota boyz cost more, Nobz less. Waargh is better Mob Rule is worse. I think it is a wash, aka this is still not a very workable list.
2) Speed Freaks <- Orks in transports. Ramshackle made trukks way worse. KFF changes made trukks and BWs worse. BW points went up. Nerf to this.
3) Biker Deathstar <- Bikes lost their cover save. so far looks like a nerf.
4) Kan Wall <- This is where I'm thinking the Gorkanaught fits in. Gork > Deff Dred > Kan. Deff Dreds are no longer troops, and Kans are still made of paper with short range shooting. It was a bad list before. Maybe it is less bad now. Not sure.


   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Kommissar Kel wrote:
 Yonan wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!


Get off it.

The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.

There is no "Day 1 DLC" to it, just that the unit in question could not be re-added to already printed books.

This is a case where GW actually listened to their fanbase and you want to complain about it because you seem to think they should have just burned all the Ork Codices they already printed and Re-printed new ones, while raising the Prices of everything to make up for that loss right?


In all honesty, considering that GW has never listened to their fanbase before, why do you think this is actually something they thought the fanbase cared about and did? It's not even close to likely they did it to placate fans and more they just decided to make it outside the codex for money,
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





The inital reaction in the rumors thread was pretty harsh, but I think that even now tempers have cooled and people are seeing the positives.

Anyways: What I was hoping to get was:

Cheaper Boyz or that rumored 6+ FNP

Dedicated transport BWs

IC Painboyz

Better Waaagh

Better Ghazgkull

Some way to mitigate casualties from the front/challenges

Better ranged support besides lootas

Cool Psychic power

In the end I got a mixed bag of what I wanted. Im really ticked about the new mob rule though and Ghazzy being a LoW without any stat changes (he actually got weaker)

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
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Made in us
Nasty Nob




Cary, NC

From the codex, I was hoping for:

Making commandos worth taking. I would also have liked them to be able to take tankbusta bombs, since they could in the 3rd edition codex and I modeled all of mine with them!

Make tankbustas actually useful for busting tanks. This one seems like they managed it, and added a dedicated transport option to boot.

Make Flash Gitz fun and worthwhile vs. Lootas. I think they accomplished this, but I would have liked, given the options on the sprues, for gitz to be able to take (on a per model basis), a more dakka (shoota bits), shootier (rocket bits) or burny (plasma bits) upgrade to their gun.

Ork Morale rules that mitigated low ork leadership. The chart does, kind of, in some circumstances, but it is clunky and inconsistent. We needed a simple rule that reflected that large mobs of orks (and orks in large mobs) tend to be insanely confident. The old "Mob Up" rule wasn't perfect, but I feel like it captured the essence of orky fighting much better than this rule.

Some sort of rule to reflect the orkish drive to get into a fight. I liked the old Furious Charge, because it boosted standard ork initiative to be equal to human initiative on a charge. This made sense to me.

Orkish durability amped up to be competitive with other melee armies. I don't mind bionics conveying Feel No Pain. I think that's more appropriate than invulnerable saves anyway, but the reduction in the availability of bioniks, and the lost opportunity to return Medi-squigs to Mega-armor (which would make them tough like terminators, but in a different way) was disappointing.

Some sort of changes to the rules to allow hordes of orks to be competitive in a scene dominated by large models and shooting. I didn't really care what, but the lack of ANY attempt to do so really grates.

Special charts for special models. They did this with the blitza-bomma, so I am happy with it.
They failed to do so with most of the Mek Guns (bubble chukkas have random STR and AP?), so

I also expected to RETAIN:

Orky approach to psychic powers, rather than generating some and using them largely like other psykers. Though the weirdboy/warphead rules weren't perfect last edition, I feel the unpredictable nature of the powers was more in tune with orks.

Ramshackle as a facet of orky vehicles (in the actual rule, where the vehicle might go out of control and kareen all over the place). I honestly expected to see it expanded to other ork vehicles.

Ork guns being used as artillery and as mounted guns. I'm very disappointed that the battlewagon can't take any of the new Mek Guns.

Some method of boosting ork leadership. We lost the Iron Gob (+1 Ld) in the last edition, but at least, you had Fearless with enough orks. Now, almost all the characters have the same leadership as the boys, and no boosts available.

Looted Wagons with at least as many options as before, if not more. GW KNOWS that people made these models. There's no way they were 'surprised' that people who converted their own models might object to losing them in the codex. There may have been some struggle between creatives and beancounters, but this was totally forseeable.

Preservation, or even expansion, of the options to alter the FOC. Allowing things like Biker Troops and Dread troops was a great way to allow people to customize and personalize their army. Given the rampant customization available through Chapter Tactics (and there are TONS of Chapter Tactics), dropping this was a punch in the janglies. You could have had Clan Taktics (if your Warboss is from the Evil Suns clan, bikes and buggies become troops choices, but Grots become Heavy Support. If your Warboss is from the Goff Clan...)

Preservation of orkish lore. Stikkbombs should not be standard, since most orks don't know which end to throw. Ardboys should be uncommon, since not many orks get to nail all those plates together (or to themselves).

Stormboys as a mobile unit. Now, it appears that moving fast kills them just as fast.


I don't hate the new codex, but I'm really disappointed that this appears to be their best effort. I could have written a better codex myself, in a week (and I honestly am not exaggerating on that, assuming I can use cut and paste from old codices). This codex could have been amazing, and instead, it's kind of meh.

Plus, looking at the new models and the detail that they are capable of, GW had the opportunity to blow the roof off with a codex/model release combo, and didn't really run with it. You have these amazing, huge mek guns, but they are functionally just 'guns', and taken in batteries of 1-5. Personally, I like the Gorkanaut, but treads on the model would have made it more plausible (and easier to pose) and the Assault rule (especially given that huge set of bay doors) would have made it a plausible Nob delivery vehicle. But you asked about the codex only, so I should stop harping on that stuff.


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
 Yonan wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!


Get off it.

The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.


Any evidence of this?

Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in au
Oberstleutnant






Perth, West Australia

 Crablezworth wrote:
 Kommissar Kel wrote:
 Yonan wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Technically we still have Looted Wagons... In a crappy White Dwarf rendition.

Yay for "Day one DLC" on the tabletop. Yours for only $4 extra, the exact same model that was in the previous codex!


Get off it.

The Looted Wagon was removed from the codex due to lack of model, it was returned via White Dwarf purely by Fan demand/outrage.


Any evidence of this?

Evidence for it being GW listening to players:
- *crickets*
Evidence for it being GW increasing cost whilst reducing product:
- 10 man DAs > 5 man DAs, basically same price.
- Data slates costing $18 for 5 lines of new rules.
- Codex supplements costing $30 for a new warlord table, some artifacts and a couple new special rules.
- 7th ltd ed rules costing double the previous ltd ed rules - and not selling near as well.
- New Ork walker thing half the size for the same price as the previous Ork walker thing.
- New Ork character for $37 for a single small plastic sprue.
- White Dwarf Weekly far less content for not much less price, I forget the specifics.

I could go on but you get the idea. There's a clear trend of GW offering less product for more money and no trend of GW listening to their players, if anything they're just getting more out of touch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/24 03:50:36


 
   
Made in us
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All I know is I am not paying $63.00 for 3 Plastic figures. My limit is reached.
   
 
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