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Hello and good day

So I am a bit confused here, I am a bit of a .... I guess nit picker I like things clean and organized and such. So I bought the Tau/farsight codex "along with many others" and scan them print the important stuff like rules for certain things "Usually type it up for a quick reference", then place them in a binder in plastic sleeves. Then I place the book in a plastic sleeve and put it infront of the binder in this case it was both the tau/farsight books.

So went to a local store and was asked why am I using that instead of the book and I need to use the book and thats illegal. I said no worries I own the book this is a reference and showed him both books at the front of the binder. He then told me it was illegal to make copys and he should ban me from the store but he is feeling nice so he won't if I stop using them...... According to him it is a rule GW as sent down the line.

So is he full of it or is there something GW sent down about not writing a reference down.

But being a Canadian I said ok thank you and just left because I can't open my book it will rune the 60$ pages lol

Many people do this at my local GW store and the manager is perfectly fine with it.

My last store didn't want people doing this. It was to easy to "tweak" the rules so to speak, so they would only let people use official codex's.

I can't say I disagree with the practice. And honestly, why should the store allow people to use books that they most likely just torrented instead of bought?

I know some who use a binder for everything, as it keeps just the pages they want in one place.
But, as people an change things and still have them look official, some might object, as above.
Though, it's no different to relying on stuff like Army Builder sheets, or ArbitorIan's crib-sheet. Binders should be allowed if you let them check it against official books.

In most jurisdictions on the planet, making a backup copy or reorganizing content is protected as part of your rights. It's just people being idiots. Especially after you show them the copies of the actual books.

Manager sounds like a witch considering you showed him that you had the books.

Just get your opponent to look at the store copy instead... that'll save your book from commoner filth.

At one point you had to put everything into a binder, as GW book binding was abyssmal and the codexes fell apart.

Slightly different argument were would the manager stand on Codices etc bought for a Kindle/tablet? Do you have to have the hard copy or would the electronic version be okay?

You are contrary to the law in reproducing the copy-written document. Very smart to have the book in a sleeve in the front to show that you did not need to copy the codex, it is only a preference (you spent the money).

I would suggest epub books next time, easier to search and less likely to wreck. What is really funny is that there is not as easy a way to verify legitimacy.

Would be nice if they were to post "banning from store guide" I am sure there is a clause "unless they spend XXX amount of money a week".

So nice to have employee tell me he could ban me but is feeling "nice", just makes me want to buy more stuff there out of gratitude...

Trying to stop rant about "suppliers" that think they are in charge and have a right to your money... grrrrrr...

I am sorry, did I hear you right???
You could ban me?
Feeling "nice" are we?
I actually spent the money on the fool book and you have directives to ban me if I make notes????
I am sorry, since my book did not come to me "right" the first time I may need trailing bits of paper with information issued by your company.
Any other snippets of wisdom from head office I should know about as well?
Going by the last shareholder's report I had no idea they were rolling in enough money to pick and choose their customers!
Tracked at all how much money I have spent in these four walls??
Should I show you gratitude for being so lenient?
Should I see gratitude from you in contributing to your continued employment?
When you received your "customer service training" did the certificate come from a cereal box?
I am sorry, I have forgotten your name, who are you again?
I just want to make sure I am not speaking to royalty or something.
"This" is why I truly enjoy X-wing!

... another rant... oh well.

That's pretty ridiculous of them. The GW books are organised horribly, what you're doing improves access to rules during games. Format shifting is explicitly legal in Australia, so I scanned mine into pdfs, which with bookmarks I find so much quicker to access information than physical copies.

Tweaking them isn't a sufficient justification as many veterans can spot that very quickly and *that* is something you should be banned for - whether you edit the rulebook, a printout, pdf, faq, whatever.

Is this a "Gaming Club" or a "Games Workshop store"?

If it's the former, then who really cares what someone says? GW doesn't give them a list of things to ban or not to ban.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Hello and good day

So I am a bit confused here, I am a bit of a .... I guess nit picker I like things clean and organized and such. So I bought the Tau/farsight codex "along with many others" and scan them print the important stuff like rules for certain things "Usually type it up for a quick reference", then place them in a binder in plastic sleeves. Then I place the book in a plastic sleeve and put it infront of the binder in this case it was both the tau/farsight books.

So went to a local store and was asked why am I using that instead of the book and I need to use the book and thats illegal. I said no worries I own the book this is a reference and showed him both books at the front of the binder. He then told me it was illegal to make copys and he should ban me from the store but he is feeling nice so he won't if I stop using them...... According to him it is a rule GW as sent down the line.

So is he full of it or is there something GW sent down about not writing a reference down.

But being a Canadian I said ok thank you and just left because I can't open my book it will rune the 60$ pages lol

Full of it. You are allowed to make copies of works of art that you legally purchase a copy of. You can make copies for precisely the reasons you are doing so: as backups and organizational aids for strictly personal use.

Now, the store can ban you, but it it not "illegal" to make copies of your books and artwork, otherwise everyone who backs up their hard drives would be infringing hundreds, if not thousands, of copyrights.

Edit: Talizvar, copying a work of art is an exclusive right of the copyright holder BUT, and this is a REALLY BIG but, once the holder of a copyright sells a copy of the artwork, the copyright holder loses some of his/her exclusive rights, and the purchaser has his/her own set of rights to use, copy, display, and modify the work.

Displaying a work of art is also an exclusive right of a copyright holder, but that doesn't mean you can't display a print of said work in your home, does it? That would be pretty darn silly, as what purpose would there be in buying a print of the artwork but for display? Now, you can't distribute the work, or copies of it, and your rights to display the work publicly are limited. But you can sell the copy, and you can even display your copy publicly for that purpose! Again, it all makes fairly common sense.

Copyright laws are designed to protect the commercial value of a work of art, and in that way promote the creation of works of art, and also to serve as a means of injecting old works of art into the public domain, so that they may be freely used by artists as a base of publicly accessible knowledge on which to build new creative works.

If copyright is supposed to protect the commercial value of a work of art, how can it do that by depriving the work of any practical value to the customer?

Weeble1000: I was looking at it digging in Canadian law, it would be possible to push a case but very small odds of winning.

I do appreciate your common sense look at things but law does not always have much to do with common sense unfortunately.

He is copying the "heart of the works" the main information of "value" which is a point against.

It is for personal use and not for resale, too bad we do not have the "format" rules our fine Australian friends do to transfer an owned works to another format. He has evidence of the purchased work so it is a huge point in favor for him.

Funning thing though: "banning" is completely governed by "trespass" law so they can pretty much kick anyone out they like, so rule of law on copyright is moot (but I wanted to know!).

No lawyer here, but looking up the laws is always worthwhile!
Thanks all.

It would be a cold day in the underworld when I steped foot into that business again...

 Talizvar wrote:
Weeble1000: I was looking at it digging in Canadian law, it would be possible to push a case but very small odds of winning.

I do appreciate your common sense look at things but law does not always have much to do with common sense unfortunately.

He is copying the "heart of the works" the main information of "value" which is a point against.

It is for personal use and not for resale, too bad we do not have the "format" rules our fine Australian friends do to transfer an owned works to another format. He has evidence of the purchased work so it is a huge point in favor for him.

Funning thing though: "banning" is completely governed by "trespass" law so they can pretty much kick anyone out they like, so rule of law on copyright is moot (but I wanted to know!).

No lawyer here, but looking up the laws is always worthwhile!
Thanks all.

I fundamentally disagree. The law is mostly common sense once you get beyond statutes and into the facts of a case. A judge would look at the facts here and say, "why is my time being wasted on this BS. There's nothing inappropriate going on here."

 Talizvar wrote:
Weeble1000: I was looking at it digging in Canadian law, it would be possible to push a case but very small odds of winning.

I do appreciate your common sense look at things but law does not always have much to do with common sense unfortunately.

He is copying the "heart of the works" the main information of "value" which is a point against.

It is for personal use and not for resale, too bad we do not have the "format" rules our fine Australian friends do to transfer an owned works to another format. He has evidence of the purchased work so it is a huge point in favor for him.

Funning thing though: "banning" is completely governed by "trespass" law so they can pretty much kick anyone out they like, so rule of law on copyright is moot (but I wanted to know!).

No lawyer here, but looking up the laws is always worthwhile!
Thanks all.

Direct from the Canadian Government website http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-42/page-19.html#h-28


Reproduction for Private Purposes

Marginal note:Reproduction for private purposes

29.22 (1) It is not an infringement of copyright for an individual to reproduce a work or other subject-matter or any substantial part of a work or other subject-matter if

(a) the copy of the work or other subject-matter from which the reproduction is made is not an infringing copy;

(b) the individual legally obtained the copy of the work or other subject-matter from which the reproduction is made, other than by borrowing it or renting it, and owns or is authorized to use the medium or device on which it is reproduced;

(c) the individual, in order to make the reproduction, did not circumvent, as defined in section 41, a technological protection measure, as defined in that section, or cause one to be circumvented;

(d) the individual does not give the reproduction away; and

(e) the reproduction is used only for the individual’s private purposes.

Would say what the OP has done is fine or as Weeble has said, backing up anything you purchased would be infringement.

Yep, fair use laws exist guys, and exist for good reason.

If the store/club/group manager is making this decision, it's a bad one that's catering too much to the cheaters and rules lawyers, and not to an environment conducive to building a fun gaming community.

The rule and culture in the store/club/group is that you shall not cheat, period. And for the rules lawyers, you shall not interrupt the game over every one of your unfounded doubts.

Not that everyone has to double and triple check everything.

Now what happens when someone cheats, or someone is being too much of a rules lawyer that it delays the game?

Stop playing with them and find a different opponent. Make the people that are causing the problems be the ones who have to make the hard decision about whether they want to continue being lonely, or start changing. It's not your purpose to be the opponent of someone who isn't fun to play against.

The law is not really relevant, both the club and a game store are entitled to have their own rules for conduct.

If this really is one then they can ask you to desist or leave, you don't really have any rights in the matter.

Seems daft in the extreme though, my money's on that perfect storm of game shop employee that's also a TFG!

If this really is a directive from GW itself, then it's a shockingly bad business practice. Attracting people to your store is a good thing. At the very least, having ongoing games gives the store liveliness and makes it more conductive to sales (a newcomer is more likely to purchase if they see people having fun with the product).

OgreChubbs wrote:
Hello and good day

So I am a bit confused here, I am a bit of a .... I guess nit picker I like things clean and organized and such. So I bought the Tau/farsight codex "along with many others" and scan them print the important stuff like rules for certain things "Usually type it up for a quick reference", then place them in a binder in plastic sleeves. Then I place the book in a plastic sleeve and put it infront of the binder in this case it was both the tau/farsight books.

So went to a local store and was asked why am I using that instead of the book and I need to use the book and thats illegal. I said no worries I own the book this is a reference and showed him both books at the front of the binder. He then told me it was illegal to make copys and he should ban me from the store but he is feeling nice so he won't if I stop using them...... According to him it is a rule GW as sent down the line.

So is he full of it or is there something GW sent down about not writing a reference down.

But being a Canadian I said ok thank you and just left because I can't open my book it will rune the 60$ pages lol

The guys full of gak. Its not illegal to photocopy something for personal use. If it was, then I'd have been up to my eyeballs in fines for all the mountains of textbook photocopies I made when studying at Uni. It would be illegal to sell said copies, and maybe illegal to give copies away.

Morally, all that should be required of you is proof that you own the rulebook. A receipt perhaps, or simply present the rulebook when challenged.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Yep, fair use laws exist guys, and exist for good reason.

If the store/club/group manager is making this decision, it's a bad one that's catering too much to the cheaters and rules lawyers, and not to an environment conducive to building a fun gaming community.

The rule and culture in the store/club/group is that you shall not cheat, period. And for the rules lawyers, you shall not interrupt the game over every one of your unfounded doubts.

Not that everyone has to double and triple check everything.

Now what happens when someone cheats, or someone is being too much of a rules lawyer that it delays the game?

Stop playing with them and find a different opponent. Make the people that are causing the problems be the ones who have to make the hard decision about whether they want to continue being lonely, or start changing. It's not your purpose to be the opponent of someone who isn't fun to play against.

This is not fair use. There must be infringement for there to be fair use. This is the right of every purchaser of a lawful copy of a copyrighted work. It is not, 'this would be infringement but for the circumstances'. Rather, it is, 'this is never, in any circumstances, no matter what the facts are, ever, ever an infringement'.

Fair use involves a complex interpretation of fact. This is simply law.

Did you buy the rulebook?

Yes.

Did you obtain it lawfully?

Yes.

Did you circumvent a device to prevent copying?

No.

Is your extra copy for personal use?

Yes.

EQUALS

No infringement.

It is not a finding of fact. It simply is.

Sounds a lot like a jobsworth on a power trip..

Shame you have someone like that working in the store (assume this is a LGS, is it even possible to play in a GW these days?)

There is a general rule in Games Workshop stores, not to allow people to play with photocopied codexes/rulebooks.

For the very obvious and totally understandable reason that you need to have a copy of your rulebook and codex to play in the games workshop store front.

This sounds like you made a bad impression coming in with your binder, and the moment you showed the store person that you were in possession of the actual books, he or she* just stuck with their guns so as not to show their embarrassment. As far as I know there is no general policy against having reference sheets or detailed army lists from GW itself. But store managers do have some leeway in making their own rules in such cases. Either way it kind of sucks, but he or she does have the right to tell you not to use photo copies inside the store front, he or she can pretty much set any rules they like if your in their space and there is very little you can do but comply. (Outside just leaving)

* The use of she is for political correctness only, because I don't think there are very many female gw store employees but It would not do to be offensive about it.

I think the proper response to this manager would be "get fethed". Hes not the codex police and I wouldn't give a damn what GW said. Contrary to what they think they don't tell the players what to do. You spent your money already on their product. It's none of theirs or anyone else's business what you do with it.

People like this are one main reason why I rarely go in any of the local game stores anymore.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The guys full of gak. Its not illegal to photocopy something for personal use. If it was, then I'd have been up to my eyeballs in fines for all the mountains of textbook photocopies I made when studying at Uni. It would be illegal to sell said copies, and maybe illegal to give copies away.

These things vary from country to country. In the UK, it is illegal to photocopy books for personal use. The only exception is 'small amounts' for research or educational purposes.

Here in Oz, it would be legal for me to scan a book I own in order to make a digital copy to have on my PC or tablet (format shifting) but illegal for me to just photocopy it in order to have a condensed print copy.

Physically bring the book with me to show them, I am the same, I like to keep gak neat and tidy and use my phone and gak for reference whenever possible.

Show them the book, and say look, I bought it, and I own it. this is so it doesnt get trashed.

Surely, that will satisfy them? Surely the rule exists to stop piracy?

I would be amazed if they were still pissed.

I had codexes that saw so much use that eventually the glue along the spine of the books just disintegrated, requiring that I put them into binders or folders.

Pretty sure this guy is either A- Afraid you're cheating or B- An idiot.

On a sidenote, ask him where this 'GW RULE' that says you can't have your books in binders is located. What does he do when people have the digital version of a codex? Tell them that they need to buy the physical copy?

 mattyrm wrote:
Physically bring the book with me to show them, I am the same, I like to keep gak neat and tidy and use my phone and gak for reference whenever possible.

Show them the book, and say look, I bought it, and I own it. this is so it doesnt get trashed.

Surely, that will satisfy them? Surely the rule exists to stop piracy?

I would be amazed if they were still pissed.

You just know the GW sales manual would say "sell them another copy for gaming, so they can keep one for best" don't you?

Raven911 wrote:
I think the proper response to this manager would be "get fethed". Hes not the codex police and I wouldn't give a damn what GW said. Contrary to what they think they don't tell the players what to do. You spent your money already on their product. It's none of theirs or anyone else's business what you do with it.

People like this are one main reason why I rarely go in any of the local game stores anymore.

while I agree that this guy is clowning, I'm assuming hes the manager of a gaming store....a store in which the OP has decided to play in....if the store manager doesnt want the OP using the binder then thats pretty much that, personal feelings aside...if its his store....its his rules...he can try to hide behind a made up edict from GW but at the end of the day if hes telling you not to use the binder then you can either go along with his rules or take your ball someplace else

 Infreak wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Weeble1000: I was looking at it digging in Canadian law, it would be possible to push a case but very small odds of winning.

I do appreciate your common sense look at things but law does not always have much to do with common sense unfortunately.

He is copying the "heart of the works" the main information of "value" which is a point against.

It is for personal use and not for resale, too bad we do not have the "format" rules our fine Australian friends do to transfer an owned works to another format. He has evidence of the purchased work so it is a huge point in favor for him.

Funning thing though: "banning" is completely governed by "trespass" law so they can pretty much kick anyone out they like, so rule of law on copyright is moot (but I wanted to know!).

No lawyer here, but looking up the laws is always worthwhile!
Thanks all.

Direct from the Canadian Government website http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-42/page-19.html#h-28


Reproduction for Private Purposes

Marginal note:Reproduction for private purposes

29.22 (1) It is not an infringement of copyright for an individual to reproduce a work or other subject-matter or any substantial part of a work or other subject-matter if

(a) the copy of the work or other subject-matter from which the reproduction is made is not an infringing copy;

(b) the individual legally obtained the copy of the work or other subject-matter from which the reproduction is made, other than by borrowing it or renting it, and owns or is authorized to use the medium or device on which it is reproduced;

(c) the individual, in order to make the reproduction, did not circumvent, as defined in section 41, a technological protection measure, as defined in that section, or cause one to be circumvented;

(d) the individual does not give the reproduction away; and

(e) the reproduction is used only for the individual’s private purposes.

Would say what the OP has done is fine or as Weeble has said, backing up anything you purchased would be infringement.

Intesting reprecussions in regards to recasting for your own army... Of course you cant sell them, but at first glance...definately sounds like you could cast up copies for your own army.

Of course you could recast models for personal use.