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Use to play 40K, but found it boring, with the I move, I shoot, I assault, you move, you shoot, you assault. My son doesn't like it either. So we are making our own home rules so we can restart playing again. We were using Lord of the Ring rules, of I move, you move, I shoot, you shoot and then we all assault. I was trying to think of something else to maybe even stream line it some more.

So far, I was thinking of going on initiative. So who ever has the highest initiative goes first, unless he rolls a Ld and then can "pass" so he can see what the other person is going to do. (might no do the "pass" but an idea)

I was also thinking of having moving and shooting together. So we don't have a move first, then shoot and then next turn, shoot and move away, there will be a 3" move buffer rule. You need to move 3" first before shooting (unless you stand still, then can shoot but not move) so hopefully this will not have a situation of where you can move and shoot and then next turn shoot again and run away.

When moving and initiative is the same then who has "priority" (from LotR, basically it's your turn to decide) who gets to decide who moves first, from a I move/shoot a unit then you move/shoot a unit, I move/shoot another unit.

If you are not going to shoot and want to run, it will be done at this point of time.

Once unit moved/shoot (should I call it activated or some other name?) a small counter will be placed to show that it's done, just like how we have counters for showing wounds, there will be a small counter to indicate it moved.

Hopefully this will make the game faster paced, more frantic (good excitement I mean) and not have the dull slow paced that me and my son don't like about 40K.

So since me and my son haven't played in ages, how do you think this will play out? Should I forget about initiative and just go I move a unit, he moves a unit or keep initiative in so the stat actually has some more use to it.

Also like there is in LotR, we will have a Hero Interactive rule where Characters can use their Ld to see if they can "seize" the initiative and move before another person moves/shoots/activates his unit. (So I guess in theory you can move 2 units in a row. Also the other person can do it as well to deny or retake it.) I think this will be a once per battle for characters and maybe special characters or unique characters get to do it 2 or 3 times per game.

Please comment on your opinions an how to improve on this. Me and my son want to start playing again but just don't have the ambition anymore because we don't find it fun. So we are making our own fun now with the help from Dakka.

I gotta say...I am utterly baffled by a lot of this.

You need to move 3" to count as moving? What?

I'm honestly very confused, and I'm not even sure what this would add. I've heard of modifications to the IGOUGO model, but I think you need something of a clearer end state rather than simply trying to shoehorn in LOTR's ruleset into 40k.

This is baffling and will give huge advantages to high initiative/leadership armies while screwing over low initiative/leadership armies. Models are priced off of their stats and gear, and currently Initiative is one of the least important stats on lots of models, behind WS and S. (Anyone shooty, really.) Eldar, Dark Eldar, certain Nids, and certain Chaos armies would suddenly become practically unstoppable while Orks get flushed down the toilet.

I think I sum up the mood of everyone who has read this thread: Uhhhh.. What?

Not quite what you specified in the OP, but have you ever looked at Mantic's Warpath rules? They work on a similar system, but it goes like this:

- T1, players roll for priority, after that, the player who finished first in the last turn goes first.

- The player with priority chooses a unit to activate, and then conducts any actions they wish to with it, including moving, running, shooting and charging. There are restrictions on some weapons, like not being able to move and shoot or shoot and charge ect. The unit is then marked as activated.

- Once this unit has activated, they get to activate another unit, but this time require a 3+ to do so, otherwise the orders fail and the unit does not act this turn. If the test is passed, repeat the above step.

- If the player wants to activate a 3rd unit, it's as above, but on a 5+, so really rather risky. At any point between activations, they may pass to the opponent, who then gets the Auto>3+>5+ system, and can again pass back at any point. A unit may select to forgo a turn for any reason, be it a lack of targets or not wanting to move ect. This does not require an activation roll.

- On subsequent turns, the player who activated or passed with all his/her units in the last turn first takes the first activation of the new turn.

There's a little more to it than that, but the rules are free from Mantic, and may well help you out shaking up 40k. If you wanted to go a step further and use all of the Warpath rules, there are good fan lists for every major faction in 40k.

The general ideia is cool. But not as you are proposing.

You want to blend move and shoot? ok. You want to make "everyone assault together"? I find it cool, but lets work it this way:

All units can be activated 1 time per turn. The regular order of activations is: player choice, i go, ou go. If at the end of my activation I have more units to activate than you have, i may activate another unit. (horde armies can actually use their numbers).

During activation you choose one of the fallowing actions: move 6 inch and shoot (at this order), move 9 inch (run), dont move and shoot as stationary, or charge an enemy (moving 6 inch as part of the charge). You can only charge anemies at up to 6 inch from you, and this means you touch bases and lock into close combat (wait for the right phase).
Units beying charged can choose to overwatch OR try to run away OR brace for impact. Overwatching units do a volley of snap shots. A running unit make a Inititave teste and if passes, can move 3 inch in any direction (normally oposite to the enemy, this occurs before the bases touch and so can avoid the engagement completely), if they dont pass they are engaged without choice. If it choose to brace for impact it receive some small bonus for the combat (i really dont know wich one, maybe you consider it is using its grenades). In any of the cases, the units is them considered "activated", and it just dont have any option if it was activated when charged. Process assault phase as normal.

This will need a lot of small tweaks in the rules as they are right now, but seens a bit more solid tham what you are proposing.

As i see now, units with fleet can move 9 when charging, models with relentless can move 6 inch and shoot as stationary, and dificulty terrain make you move half the regular distance.

Other suggestion i give you is that you try "warpath 2.5", its a fan version of warpath 2.0 who adressed lots of sutff (and pratically cover the changes you want, with better balanced codexes). Here: http://forum.manticblog.com/showthread.php?8380-Warpath-2-5-Fan-Edition


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninjed by Paradigm (but take a look at warpath "2.5").

Thanks guys for the comments. I am not good at explaining so sorry if it didn't come out. Will read the links from what people posted and see what I can gather from there before I make a new comment.

Some great ideas given and I say thank you. I think I will use them. First though to read the links.

Initiative is not designed and priced for that purpose. You should add another stat for the 'who goes first' thing.

@The Dwarf Wolf: I didn't know there was a 2.5 for WP. Even if fan made, I'll have to check that out. Cheers!

Why not use the game turn from Epic Space Marine?

You are referring to LotR a lot then why not just play that game.

koooaei wrote:Initiative is not designed and priced for that purpose. You should add another stat for the 'who goes first' thing.

Problem with the 40K codices are, what is really priced for what purpose? Why are models still paying for a high purpose initiative for assault while rule edition changes make initiative useless then? Where is the compensation for that? Why do some armies pay more for others? How come CSM are 1 or 2 points cheaper than Space Marines but the SM get so much more benefit than CSM? You telling me everything is really priced properly? If you are correct, then I will have to make sure that higher Initiative units have to cost more. After all it's only me and my son playing so we can adjust the price points properly then.

What would you suggest? How much higher points should a unit cost?

Lanrak wrote:Why not use the game turn from Epic Space Marine?

Never herd of it. What is it?

ChapertMasterRagnaValick wrote:You are referring to LotR a lot then why not just play that game.

I see the interest in my son wayning even with those rules so trying to think of something to keep him more interested. With ADD his mind (mind too) keeps wondering and trying to think what will keep us more involved instead of the I have to wait for you to do everything. While I think the LotR rules are great, it's still a little slow and trying to find a way to speed it up. Also would love to make my own rule book one day, and don't want just copy from other companies. Who knows, maybe one day I will make my own gaming system. If Dropzone Commander can be done from one person, why can't it happen again?

About inititave: most armies have the same initiative value across all their units, so it would keep the same boring mechanic we see in the real game (my army goes first, them its yours).

And for playing LotR: I think the OP want to play sci-fi looking, 40k scenario, space marines vs space orks... LotR have good mechanics, but is not meant for that setting.

Maybe we should have something like a "GURPS" for Wargames (a GUWGS?)... lol

I would like to eliminate extra die rolling. I am trying to speed up the game. Here is another idea. Cover saves or modify dice rolls to hit?

So instead of a 5+ cover save, you get a +1 modifier on the dice. a 4+ cover save would be a +2 on the dice etc.

What do you think and why?

Cover as a modifier for hit rolls is something almost every other system does, so it makes sense. I'd take the WFB route:

Soft cover, such as trees, bushes, walls, smoke etc gives -1 to hit. Hard cover, such as bbuildings, tanks and other solid structures, gives -2. Soft and hard can stack, but 6+ to hit is the limit after which nothing else stacks.

I like your idea there Paradigm. I was thinking of something like that but wasn't sure. Glad to see someone else is thinking like I was. I like this idea because, why would you be hit first, then take a cover save and then not be hit.

How would shrouding work? Would it added as well?

Also I was thinking of if you don't get a hit because of cover saves being added, how about a rule to say that the cover save is reduced or can only be hit so many times before being destroyed and you can't have that cover save no more.

Soft cover saves like fences or what not, have a cover save of 1. Once hit you get your cover save -1 to hit and then it's destroyed. After all you hit the cover. Or maybe say you needed a 4+ to hit. Cover saves add a +1 so now you need a 5+ to hit. You roll a 4. because the cover save was added it meant you would have hit normally so that means you hit the cover and so it's destroyed. Say you rolled a 3, you would have missed no matter what so didn't hit the cover and so it's not destroyed.

Not sure if that adds unneeded bulk or complexity, but could add some more options and strategy. Hide behind cover, it can be destroyed and never used again, or have people cam pining their minis and not worry about being hit, so now they will have to worry if their cover can disappear and they will have to make new choices later instead of just camping.

I'd just say Stealth grants Soft Cover, Shrouding grants Hard Cover. Simple.

While destructible terrain is a cool idea, I think its best left to skirmish games, in 40k its just too complicated considering how much terrain there should be on the board.

Would Stealth an Soft cover be culmative Paradigm or you take the highest?

Don't Buildings now have damage points or what ever they are called? I thought it was in the game now, guess I read it wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New idea, from me. How about a short, medium, long rule modifiers for shooting? So it would be a -1, -, +1 modifiers to hit. I just don't like it's easy to hit someone that is so far out, just as easy if it was point blank range.

So my idea is like Battletech which has ranges. I don't remember how they do it but my idea is. take your length, divide by 3. So for a 36" range weapon Short range would be 1-12, 12.1-24, 24.1-36.

24" range weapons would be 1-8", 8.1-16", and 16.1" to 24"

Or would this be to many modifiers if I use Cover Rules as modifiers as well? Would it help units getting into Assault and a bit more survivable without worrying about giving them point cost reductions? This way far away it's a bit harder to hit, when close, it's easier to hit, especially they are in assault range . They had help to get their, now it's the shooters time for help to maybe survive the soon to be Assault.

hi davor,

have a look at the old OOP rules for starship troopers by andy chambers - there might be something there for you. rather than move everything/shoot everything/assault, then hand over to player 2, how it worked was you activated one unit at a time. each unit got 2 actions, and as an action, they could move, shoot, assault (you were never "locked" in melee though!), ready actions, or special actions. a ready action was required prior to any special action, like, for example using your jump jets to perform a "strafing run". however, if you performed an action within 10" of an opponents unit, they got to perform a free action of their choice as a "reaction". each unit could only perform 1 reaction per turn though.

it was a great system. it flowed well, you have a lot of options and it felt free flowing. greatest of all, you were always engaged in the game- even during your opponents turn and could always do stuff.

regarding cover, i will always prefer modifiers to extra dice rolls. but dont assume it has to be a to-hit mod. in starship troopers, cover was treated as a positive modifier for armour saves - it offered more protection, but power armour was a 4+ save here. what you could do is take the Infinity route, and say cover is a modifier to both to-hit rolls, and to-wound rolls.

if you have, say, light cover, and heavy cover. you could say light cover is a -1 to hit modifier but nothing else (you are harder to hit, but a bush is hardly likely to stop bullet impacts!). hard cover would be a -1 to hit modifier and a +1armour save modifier (representing both additional difficulty in acquiring a target, combined with better physical protection). Id be wary of it though, at the same time. it could make surviveability "too good", and 40k already suffers from the dice rolls favouring surviveability rather than killing power. i would recommend it with the caveat that weapons shout have armour mods too - but dont go crazy here either.

Davor wrote:
Would Stealth an Soft cover be cumulative Paradigm or you take the highest?

Don't Buildings now have damage points or what ever they are called? I thought it was in the game now, guess I read it wrong.

I'd say they stack, but remember nothing can be worse than a 6+

As for damaging buildings, that's fine, I was just suggesting that if you were to do it for every fence/hedge/wall/rock/barricade would get overcomplicated very fast. For fortification-size buildings it'd be fine, but they're more treated like vehicles rather than cover.

New idea, from me. How about a short, medium, long rule modifiers for shooting? So it would be a -1, -, +1 modifiers to hit. I just don't like it's easy to hit someone that is so far out, just as easy if it was point blank range.

So my idea is like Battletech which has ranges. I don't remember how they do it but my idea is. take your length, divide by 3. So for a 36" range weapon Short range would be 1-12, 12.1-24, 24.1-36.

24" range weapons would be 1-8", 8.1-16", and 16.1" to 24"

Or would this be to many modifiers if I use Cover Rules as modifiers as well? Would it help units getting into Assault and a bit more survivable without worrying about giving them point cost reductions? This way far away it's a bit harder to hit, when close, it's easier to hit, especially they are in assault range . They had help to get their, now it's the shooters time for help to maybe survive the soon to be Assault.

Thank you once again guys. I never knew there was a Starship trooper game. Will have to check it out if I can find a copy.

I was thinking about ranges and modifiers and after reading more threads (that big huge 29 page thread) I think I won't. I am starting to think that the weapon ranges are actual infinite (I mean they would cover the entire board) but the range is the actual effective range that can be used. So no range modifiers then. Just adding extra stuff and still keeping the flow as a 40K game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New question. Thinking of movement now. How much should a unit move? Let's just talk infantry for now.

In my rules of Davor's 40K Rules, my turn sequence is 2 phases. In the 1st phase, person can choose to move or shoot. They do this for all their units. Then it's the other person's turn to shoot or move. In the 2nd phase you either move or shoot, the activation you didn't do in the 1st phase.

So should infantry still move 6"? If they decide not to shoot, then I was thinking they can move another 6". Once in B2B assault/close combat will begin. (still working it out, trying to take the assault phase out.)

So since I will not have an assault phase and there will be no random die roll or 6" assault move (never liked how you can move further if you assault but couldn't do it if you didn't assault, it's like a magical move just for assaulting someone) so should I add more movement for infantry? What is fair? 12" move standard for infantry? Too much? How about 9" then?

I don't really want to add random die movement, but since we don't have assault moves, should it be 6" + d6 (or 2d6) for their total move?

Just stumped now, on how to add the extra move by taking the assault phase away. I am just thinking of not adding anything but want to still keep the flavour of 40K.

What do you think? Add something or just not add nothing and keep it like LotR and once in BtB, it's assault time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New idea, just throwing it out there.

How about in phase 1 Say it's your turn, you decide to move, then after you move, your opponent shoots. Then when your opponent does their movement you get to shoot, then in phase 2 your opponent moves and you get to shoot, or if it's your turn in phase 1 you get to shoot first and then your opponent moves, then in phase 2, you move and your opponent shoots.

Just throwing it out there. Something different.

For movement, I'd keep it simple. Give the unit two move options.

Walk: the unit may move up to 6 inches
Run: the unit may move up to 12 inches, and if it reaches base contact with an enemy unit, resolve Overwatch and treat the unit as locked in combat.

 Paradigm wrote:
For movement, I'd keep it simple. Give the unit two move options.

Walk: the unit may move up to 6 inches
Run: the unit may move up to 12 inches, and if it reaches base contact with an enemy unit, resolve Overwatch and treat the unit as locked in combat.

I assume Run would disable shooting.

How would this interact with SnP or Fleet?

Yes, run precludes any kind of shooting (although this might make assault weapons useless, unless you make them the exception to this rule)

Off the top of my head, and too eliminate pointless rolls, SNP give -2 to move/-4 to run, Fleet gives +2/4 (this makes fleet more like the old version)

So far I got this.

Priority Phase

➢ Roll a die 6 (d6) and the highest roll wins Priority for that turn.
• On turn one in an event of a tie, reroll until someone wins.
• After turn one, in the event it is a tie, person who lost Priority the previous turn gets Priority this turn.


Activation Phase (Initiation phase)

➢ Choose an Initiation. Either a move Initiation or a Shoot Initiation.

Move Initiation

Regular Move

• If choosing a Regular Move Initiation on your unit, that unit may move up to its allowed movement rate. (Usually 6” for Infantry units.)
• It may not move within 1” of an enemy unit.
• It may be able to fire in its Shoot Initiation. (May not make an Assault Initiation. Exception, a unit with Assault weapons.)
• It may make an Assault Initiation; move your mini into Base to base (b2b) with an enemy unit you wish to assault. (May not make a Shoot Initiation. Exception, a unit with Assault weapons)

Double Move

• If choosing a Double Move Initiation on your unit, that unit may move up to Double (X2) its movement rate. (Usually 12” for Infantry units.) It may not move within 1” of an enemy unit and may not make an assault Initiation.
• It may not make a Shoot initiation.
• It may not make an Assault initiation.

Assault Move Initiation

• If choosing an Assault initiation, your unit may move up to One and Half (X1.5) times it’s movements rate (Usually 9” for Infantry units.)
• It may ignore not being able to move within 1” on an enemy model and move into base to base.
• It may not make a Shoot initiation.

Yes it's a mess right now, just putting my ideas and writing them down now. (typing )

Right now, I am trying to make these basic rules first. First to see how fun the rule is, and it's like Battle for Macragge start with simple rules first and then working on from there for me and my son. Once I see what he is having fun with, I can add more.

This is why I don't have SNP or Fleet yet. Trying to see how they can be added in.

After reading a lot of threads, and i mean a lot of thread here, I see people don't want to be assaulted too soon, not make assaulting units too powerful. So this is why I thought for now what I have. Thing is, it seems my Stealers are a bit slow right now, but like I said, after trying a game or two, will see how much fun it is.

Please keep giving me your comments guys. After reading your posts in other threads, I am learning a lot.

BATTLE REPORT

We both rolled a d6 to see who placed a unit first. I won so I place my first unit in my zone, then he placed one I place my other etc until we placed our 3 units on the table.

The table was small 2X2 or just a bit bigger than that. He had 15 Necron Troops, I had 15 Stealers all in groups of 3.

There was one objective marker in the middle so we both had equal chance of getting. He and I have an objective marker we can place anywhere except in our zone. This way the objective points work like this. Since I placed an objective marker in his zone, its 1 point for him, but 2 points for me and his objective marker is 1 point for me, and 2 points for him.

He placed an objective marker in my zone and I placed an objective marker in his zone so we can try and get maximum points per turn.

I moved my first unit and did a double run. So I get to move 12" instead of 6". A double run is double movement but can't shoot or assault. Since I have no guns and he was out of range, it was a good move to take and got me almost into the middle objective. Just a few mm short of claiming for that turn.

Then he moved his Necrons to the objective in his zone. 1 point claimed. I moved my other Stealers to my objective in my zone. Then we moved out last units up the middle.

Long story short, he basically shot me up. My stealers in my zone on my objective got wiped out. So to great rolling on his part wiped my Stealers out so never got to claim the point at the end of turn.

Poor rolling for the other 2 squads. Then next turn we roll again to see who goes first. I choose not to pass, so I assaulted his Necrons in the middle. Since those Necrons didn't get to shoot, he Overwatched me and fired at full BS. Took only 1 Stealer out. CC took 3 turns and I finally killed them all. Then as soon there was no more Necrons left, he wiped out those Stealers. The other brood of Stealers were picked off as well.

So he won on points and wipe out.

Next game I got my DA so I can have some shooting. Set up was basically the same on the first game.

First game was, I move or shoot a unit, he moves or shoots a unit back and forth. This time we kept it, I move or shoot everything first in the 1st phase of a turn, then he moves or shoots everything. Then he move or shoot what he didn't do in the 1st phase and then I move or shoot what I didn't do in the 1st phase.

This time we both claimed one point on turn one. On turn 2 he shoots through a building. He is not in it, but can see me through the windows. So it's a +2 to hit. So instead of a 3+ to hit, he needed a 5+ to hit. He hits twice. So now instead of a 4+ to wound (just made up the number so we can keep the game going) he needed a 6 to wound. No wounds. He wipes out the squad eventually on turn 4. On turn 3, I take my DA and assault his Necrons again in the middle. This time the Over watch was more deadly and he took down 2 DA.

He finally gets his Necrons in my zone because I foolishly assaulted his Necrons the turn before. So now he is claiming 2 points in my zone and 1 point in his zone. Game ended on turn 6, his score 9 points to my 5.

Having to place an objective in an enemy territory seemed to help because now that was 2 points for him per turn instead of one. If he placed it in the neutral zone it would have only been one point.

Mind you the map was small, but it was a good start to get use to the rules and see what needs changing.

Sorry for the report not well written. I am not good at talking or typing with words. Hopefully you get the gist of what rules we changed and see how it worked a bit.

Next time, I will take better notes and better explain what happened and pics to show how much fun it was.

I've only read op's post but my take on it is do something about I and LD. Make movement based off of each unit's initiative to move that unit.

Example

player1(p1) has units with initiatives 5,5,4,3,3
player 2(p2) has units with initiatives 5,4,4,2,2

p1 and p2 both move one of their I5 at the same time
p1 moves his other i5
p1 and p2 both move one of their i4
p2 moves his other i4
p1 moves his i3 units
p2 moves his i2 units

for shooting use leadership instead of initiative.

not sure if highest I and LD or majority I and LD would be best or even a mixture majority I and highest LD.

just my two cents. and just an idea thats off the cuff

Oberron wrote:
I've only read op's post but my take on it is do something about I and LD. Make movement based off of each unit's initiative to move that unit.

Example

player1(p1) has units with initiatives 5,5,4,3,3
player 2(p2) has units with initiatives 5,4,4,2,2

p1 and p2 both move one of their I5 at the same time
p1 moves his other i5
p1 and p2 both move one of their i4
p2 moves his other i4
p1 moves his i3 units
p2 moves his i2 units

for shooting use leadership instead of initiative.

not sure if highest I and LD or majority I and LD would be best or even a mixture majority I and highest LD.

just my two cents. and just an idea thats off the cuff

I was looking at something like that. Too complicated for us right now. Me and my son haven't played in ages and basically out of the loop of gaming so we are slowly getting into playing a game and getting a feel how to play again. In the end I am hoping to do something like you suggested, but we are easing our way in.

So for now it's, roll for Priority, then choose to pass or keep your turn. Then when it's your turn, say Turn 1a either move or shoot all your units, then it's the next persons turn. Then, it's turn 1b and then shoot or move what you didn't do in turn 1a. There is still the same number of player phases or sequences, but just done in a different order so you are stuck not doing everything.

Now I might even think of doing an I move everything, I shoot everything, but add in an Intervention or activation phase. That would mean when player one is moving, and if it does something and it causes an Intervention action, the other player can react to it. I thought, no it would be no good, but after reading someone's rules, he has an reaction move or phase, and thought that might be good to add in and maybe make the game more quicker?

Again play testing more would find out soon. But first me and my son have to relearn how to play a game. Going good, have a few short games and he wants to add more complexity to the game now. So we are getting there. Will diffidently keep your suggestion in mind and see how it goes. Thank you for sharing it.