Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know Orks in 40k are basically a joke, but I've heard they can actually be competative in WHFB. With that in mind, here's a little list I've dreamed up. Is this headed in the right track? Any suggestions (and explanations on why it should be changed if you don't mind) would be great.

Black Orc Warboss: Armour of Destiny; shield; War Boar 237

Orc Shaman: Armour of Fortune; Channelling Staff; Level 2 Wizard 150
Night Goblin Big Boss: Biting Blade; great weapon; light armour; Great Cave Squig 96

39 Orc Big 'Uns: Razor Standard; Orc Boss; Musician; Standard Bearer 392
5 Goblin Wolf Riders: Musician; Standard Bearer 70
20 Night Goblins: short bows; Netters; Night Goblin Boss; Musician; Standard Bearer 135
20 Orc Boyz: Orc Boss; Musician; Standard Bearer 155

10 Night Goblin Squig Hoppers 120

Mangler Squigs 65
Doom Diver Catapult 80

1,500 points

Thanks a bunch everyone.

Lets talk about Orcs. You have heard correctly, Orcs can be a pretty competitive force. But like a lot of older books- like Beastmen, the Orc Armybook is essentially shoehorned into 1 army build if they want stay competitive and hang with the newer, more powerful books.

So anyway, lets look at your list, and do some fixing.

Competitively speaking, Savage Orcs are almost universally better than Orc Boyz. Frenzy gives them a harder punch on the charge, and Ward Saves being more powerful than Armour saves makes them more durable as well. Especially when you add in the obligatory Great Shaman with the Lucky Shrunken Head. Now Savages cannot take a magic banner, but it doesn't matter, Frenzy, and the 5++ Ward save make up for it. You'll hit harder than regular orcs, and take fewer casualties.

Its also important to note that it is almost always worth it to upgrade your Orcs. Additional Hand Weapon is the most popular, as it gives your front rank (or flanks if you get flank charged) an extra attack. This really adds up over the course of the game and is usually worth it. On regular Orcs a shield can make decent tarpit units thanks to parry, but generally additional hand weapons is the way to go on everything. That said, there are quite effective builds that attach a Night Goblin BSB with the Spider Banner to a unit of Savage Orc Big Uns with Bows. They still have a lot of attacks in melee, and the hail of poison arrows can be devastating.

Outside of Savage Orcs, players tend to fill their core requirement with Night Goblins, and always bring Fantatics. Fanatics hit very hard, and will often obliterate elite units attempting to charge your Goblins. Units of 20 Night Goblins serve little purpose other than Fanatic delivery systems. Netters is a good upgrade, but since its a static cost for the entire unit, you will typically reserve it for larger blocks of around 40+.

Your heroes and Lords section is missing several key points. You will always want a BSB. Orc Leadership isn't great, and being able to re-roll failed leadership checks is huge. Many competitive players take a Black Orc BSB and attach him to their Savage Orc Big Uns. This keeps them in line, giving a re-roll on their frenzy checks, and prevents animosity from losing control of your primary combat unit. After the BSB, Magic is incredibly important in Warhammer Fantasy. You will almost always want a level 4 Wizard in your army, and that will bring you a bit more than a combat lord. The Spells of the Big Waaaagh are pretty good too. "Foot of Gork" is awesome. Remember Wizards are not only important for casting your own spells, but also for denying your opponents spells. Only including a single level 2 is just asking to get schooled hard in the magic phase, which can and does loose games. Typically you'll want a savage orc great shaman level 3-4 to carry the lucky shurken head (typically Lucky Shurken Head, Fencer's Blades, Sceptre of Stability) and a level 2 Night Goblin Shaman with a Dispel Scroll. Night Goblin Shaman are very powerful because of Magic Mushrooms. Essentially gaining free power dice, and the ability to steal dice from your opponent can really help make your magic phase something to be feared.
Aside from having the wrong characters, you need to pay more attention to character builds. With Orcs its typically better to buy more characters than upgrade your dudes heavily. Typically you want to spend points on your BSB, and level 4, and aside from that, you don't care as much about the well being of your other characters. They are just slightly better Orcs. A common tactic is to put a bunch of (Night) Goblin Big Bosses with Great Weapons into a Night Goblin with Netters group. the Nets make your bosses tougher to kill, and the great weapon attacks from the big bosses give your goblins killing power.

Finally, Goblin Artillery is the mainstay of competitive Orcs. Its cheap and good. If you want to play competively, your Rare Slot should be 2 Manglers, and 2x Doom Divers, and if you have spare rare points, get some Rock Lobbas in there. Orcs beat tougher newer codexes by blasting the crap out of them with devestating artillery strikes, and forcing the closing army to deal with a massive horde of Savage Orcs which can outgrind even Warriors of Chaos. If that doesn't sound Orcy.... it is what it is . And if you want to play a more close combat oriented approach (like I do) you need to realize right off the bat that you are handicapping yourself and will have an uphill battle trying to keep up with Elves or Warriors of Chaos.

Wow, it looks like I need to make a whole new list then lol. Well, back to the old drawing board.

I mean its not a total loss. At the end of the day Fantasy *is* better balanced than 40K, and a wacky leadership roll can send an army from facing certain defeat to a crushing victory. That said, there are options within the O&G book that are far better than what you have selected.

Your list isn't bad per say, you've got the basic elements of a fantasy army, you're just not quite there on certain war gear builds. Wolf Riders are very competitive for instance, for both redirecting enemy combat blocks and taking out enemy war machine crews. Really all your list really needs to be competitive is dropping all of the Squig Riders, swapping out the Boyz for Savage Orc Big Uns, and rearranging your heroes slot... maybe another doom diver.

I'm doing some rearranging and dropping of some stuff. Hopefully, I'll have an alternate list up soon. I'd like to keep some of the boys in, just because I like them. I'll post me new list as soon as it's done.

We'll, I ended up having to boost the points to 1750 to get it all to fit right, but is this a little more BOOM for my buck? Looks pretty solid to me. I just wish Orc Boys were more competitive. I love their model individuality. Here we go:

Savage Orc Great Shaman: Lucky Shrunken Head; Fencer's Blades; Sceptre of Stability; Level 4 Wizard 305 (goes with Savage Orcs)

Night Goblin Shaman: Dispel Scroll; Talisman of Protection; Level 2 Wizard 125 (Goes with Night Goblins)
Goblin Big Boss: Razor Standard; additional hand weapon; light armour; Battle Standard; Giant Wolf 121 (Goes with Goblin Wolf Riders)

38 Night Goblins: short bows; Netters; Musician; Standard Bearer 179
• 3 Fanatics 75
38 Savage Orc Big 'Uns: additional hand weapons; Musician; Standard Bearer 438
10 Goblin Wolf Riders: shields; Musician; Standard Bearer 130

Doom Diver Catapult 80
Doom Diver Catapult 80
Mangler Squigs 65
Mangler Squigs 65
Goblin Rock Lobber 85

1,748 points

We'll, I changed a few things again. Changed the Night Gob Shammy to a regular Gob Shammy so he could have the Spider Standard. That way, if he can get the Spider God spell, I would have 27 gobs, 3 Fanatics, and a Gob Shammy, all with 5+ poison attacks. Had to give up a few gobs ands orcs. How's this look?

Savage Orc Great Shaman: Lucky Shrunken Head; Fencer's Blades; Sceptre of Stability; Level 4 Wizard 305

Goblin Big Boss: Razor Standard; additional hand weapon; light armour; Battle Standard; Giant Wolf 121
Goblin Shaman: Spider Banner; Level 2 Wizard 175

33 Night Goblins: short bows; Netters; Musician; Standard Bearer 155
• 3 Fanatics 75
35 Savage Orc Big 'Uns: additional hand weapons; Musician; Standard Bearer 405
10 Goblin Wolf Riders: shields; Musician; Standard Bearer 130

Doom Diver Catapult 80
Doom Diver Catapult 80
Mangler Squigs 65
Mangler Squigs 65
Goblin Rock Lobber 85

1,750 points

Now the only real problem I see is all the rolls for Animosity.

I think it looks solid man. I find that (on the whole) fantasy is more flexible than 40k, and that there is less tendency toward the "it" list you see on the internet.

You'll do fine, although I'll caution you that some days your animosity rolls and average leadership will betray you, and you won't. Expect it with O&G, and embrace the madness. They're a blast to play as long as you don't get wrapped around the axle about getting smashed sometimes.

After all, if we win, we win, and if we run away, we still win because we can come back and have another go at it later.

That's paraphrased, but it captures they orky mindset well.

Dan


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it looks solid man. I find that (on the whole) fantasy is more flexible than 40k, and that there is less tendency toward the "it" list you see on the internet.

You'll do fine, although I'll caution you that some days your animosity rolls and average leadership will betray you, and you won't. Expect it with O&G, and embrace the madness. They're a blast to play as long as you don't get wrapped around the axle about getting smashed sometimes.

After all, if we win, we win, and if we run away, we still win because we can come back and have another go at it later.

That's paraphrased, but it captures they orky mindset well.

Dan

If you're starting Orcs and Goblins, you need to know that they're not a combat army. You need to sit back and drop feet of gork on your opponents. As well as double rock lobbas, and double doom divers.

The rest of the army is a level 4 savage orc shaman, Blorc BSB, savage big 'un horde and chaff.

OK. The second list is unfortunately illegal.

You can only take magic banners on heroes for the Battle Standard Bearer.

This means that the only character in the game who can take a Spider Banner is a Goblin Battle Standard Bearer. I'm not saying that this isn't a good idea, The Spider Banner is very powerful. But it must be taken by your BSB. So a Shaman may never take the Spider Banner.

Second, its not generally a good idea to put your BSB with Wolves. The most important parts of your army are going to be the Core Infantry, the Savages, and Night Goblins. Units like Wolf Riders are not an ideal place to put your BSB because you want them out aggressively ranging- charging warmachines, or sacrificing them to redirect enemy combat blocks.

Also unfortunately I lied to you. I was going through the Orcs and Goblins Armybook, and your SO Great Shaman cannot take both the lucky head, and a Scepter of Stability- since they are both Arcane Items and you can only have one Arcane item... my bad. I apologize for that.

No list without a Dispel Scroll can really consider itself competitive. It is by far one of the very best items in the entire game.

Ok. Fixed the magic items, decided to let the wolves go on their own, the goblin big boss now has the spider standard and is now with the night goblin unit. Now my question is, can I put the goblin boss and the goblin shaman in the night goblin unit?

Savage Orc Great Shaman: Lucky Shrunken Head; Fencer's Blades; Ironcurse Icon; Level 4 Wizard 295

Goblin Big Boss: Spider Banner; additional hand weapon; light armour; Battle Standard 149
Goblin Shaman: Dispel Scroll; Talisman of Protection; Level 2 Wizard 130

38 Night Goblins: short bows; Netters; Musician; Standard Bearer 179
• 3 Fanatics 75
35 Savage Orc Big 'Uns: additional hand weapons; Musician; Standard Bearer 405
10 Goblin Wolf Riders: shields; Goblin Wolf Rider Boss; Musician; Standard Bearer 140

Doom Diver Catapult 80
Doom Diver Catapult 80
Mangler Squigs 65
Mangler Squigs 65
Goblin Rock Lobber 85

1,748 points

I can suggest some tweets - but otherwise you have a counter attack army the orcs have become

The BSB needs to be as survivable as possible, so take the best defense available to them.
Gobbo shaman is just a scroll caddy really - the mushrooms a night goblin shaman has helps, when i need to use him (trying to take a dispel dice with a magic missile / hex)
I want people to fight my savage orcs, as such I will place my chaff so they kettle opposing units into areas i want them to be in - to help with this 2 smaller units are better than one bigger one for me

Anyway happy Waaagh!-ing

EDIT: typos

So should I drop the Spider Banner in exchange for magical items (because to take a magical banner, he has to give up magical items) to make him more survivable?

It was more take a shield over extra hand weapon, nothing bad in having the spider banner, thou you want to use the poisoned short bow fire, rather than the poison combat attacks.
keep the unit to a flank, if lucky enough to get the movement spell, try dropping the night goblin unit so that the fanatics get released, and they bounce/spin/maim into the flank of the opposing force, causing at least 75 points worth of annoyance. And as long as you did not march you should be able to hit a unit within short range.

Oooh...that DOES sound nasty. *Gollum voice Tricksy goblinses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think I can split the wolves into two units of 5 at this point without giving up something for the points. I can't really give up any more Big Uns or Goblins to get the extra points (would put my horde formation at risk). Could I give up one of the Mangler Squigs, or would two of them and a 10 unit of wolves be a better idea? I'm at my max point limit with the list as it stands right now. If anything, i'mthinking of dropping the rock lobber and grabbing some more Big Uns and Goblins.

i would play the list first, and see how it functions
The lobba and the 2x doom divers do a better job than 2x doom divers and a few more models in the units.
To posing units you want to soften, panic where possible, and when combat happens it should be on your terms.

Those mangler squigs 90% of the time will not get into the opposing units, as they are nasty when they do, so they are fire/magic magnets - but at the points they are, it is highway robbery


what is your plan with the wolves?
- if it is hunt warmachines, you are limited to the number that can attack each turn
- if it is mage / BSB hunting, then there are other options - stuff that does not suffer from animosity (ie lone mounted characters)
- if it is movement blocking, then you should be better placed with 2x 5 wolf units - if you are wanting full command in each you will not be needing it, check the tactica pages