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All right - so I was super excited about getting my new codex. I've been waiting for SW's to be updated to 7th ed to hopefully be viable again. And I have to say that I'm really very pleased that many of the confusing or potentially problematic rules / wargear / psychic powers have been brought into line with the standard rules. At least they seem to be at first glance. However, it also seems like most things have been heavily nerfed. Now granted, some units really needed to be - Grey Hunters were underpriced for what they could do. But in applying the nerf, they've reduced Space Wolves (troops specifically) to be more or less much vanilla space marines. In exchange for that, SW players get

New stuff
1) the privilege of an $81 flying metal box. (stormwolf looks pretty good, but it's still 220 points).
2) Bjorn the Fell-Handed and Murderfang may be viable now. We'll see.
3) Logan Grimnar on a chariot. (srsly? WTF?)

Lots of wargear choice for troops vanished. Like;
- Mark of the Wulfen. This is probably fine, but it costs us versatility and flavor. It also means I've got 5 useless miniatures now.
- Wolf Totem is gone. No more re-rolls in the assault phase, and another 5 of my mini's are no longer wysisyg.
- Grey hunters have to pay 2 pts for CCW's. (DISLIKE). IMHO it should be 1 point but OK.

There's other stuff too. Anyway - Is it just me? Am I crazy to be disappointed, or am I missing something?

DISCUSS

Nope, I love 90% of it.

The short list of thing I are unhappy about {It will be shorter this way}:
MotW Gone: Sucks, but not enough for me hate the Codex.
Wolf Tail Talisman, Wolf Tooth Necklace Gone: Sucks, but not enough for me hate the Codex. I look at it as me saving points in the long run.
Canis: Not getting a ++ Save. I think that is now off set by Wolf Claws getting S+1, and Rending.
...that is about it for me

I would also like to know:
>Why everyone thinks just because MotW is gone they have useless models. Was there something added to the Codex that told us all we cant use them any more? Is there a reason they cant just be used for really neat models or your Wolf Guard Pack Leader?
>The same goes for the loss of the Wolf Standard. I really liked the old one, but the new one is Good. All of those others carrying one make great candidates for Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, just add bling if they did not have that already.

I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.

The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.

The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?

My Codex to actually be here in my hands.

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.

The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?

It's mandatory for people to moan about there new codex remember

The only ones I see no complaints about are the horus Hersey ones by FW

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.

The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?

Well said.

Plus, we are going to see SW allies for many imperial armies, because who doesn't want empty drop pods for their friends?

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.

The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?

Agreed. Unfortunately, my FLGS doesn't have the codex in stock, so I'll probably have to wait another week.

Mmmm... the way to tell if people are upset with a new Codex or not is to see how many people are selling their armies. Sales on Ebay and swaps in the swap shop go up when there's a bad release.

Not seeing much so far.

I love it, the second I glanced through it all kinds of ideas started sparking up in my mind.

Before, I never cared for the bikes, jump packs, Iron Priests and Blood Claws and now I want to field units of all of them.

Come on dont complain about models you cannot use, i lost marbo and the model works fine as a veteran sergeant, just be happy you lost wargear and rules, not special characters.

Not a SW player, but I am interested in people's reactions to:
Murder* (fluff aside - is it a good unit? Worth it's points? Etc.)
The magic Grimbus (Again, goofy model aside, how well does it work in the game?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Come on dont complain about models you cannot use, i lost marbo and the model works fine as a veteran sergeant, just be happy you lost wargear and rules, not special characters.

And this. Stay strong man, we'll get the Catachan supplement eventually.
Maybe.

Murderfang: I love the model, though he is getting a different "Head" and the rules look good. He is sort of a Lone Wolf in Dreadnaught Armor and I love Lone Wolves.
Logan and his Long Boat: I Love it, it combines so many Viking things together {Long Boat & Chariots}

I'm mostly indifferent.

The 'nid codex pissed me off because it was a pile of crap. Though they did add some units I liked, so that was cool.

The IG codex pissed me off mainly because it felt like a sidestep, adding some things and taking away others. Unfortunately it didn't add anything I liked and took away stuff I did (added Wyvern, yawn, a new type of Ogryn, yawn, and the Taurox, eww).

The SW codex I'm mostly indifferent. It definitely has better balance, but the old codex was pretty unbalanced so I would have been unhappy if they didn't fix it a bit. It removed some of the flavour but then added in flavour in other spots (assuming you like the flavour, I'm mostly indifferent). It didn't remove tons of things like the IG codex did, only a couple of things I'm mostly indifferent to. It added a bunch of units I either dislike or am indifferent to (Murderfang, flying shipping containers, Santa Claws).

So yeah, not disappointed, but also not really inspired. Certainly not pissed off like I was with the nid and IG codices.

If I'm disappointed it's mainly because I wanted them to reduce the comical wolfiness and increase the tough viking angle more, but that's just a matter of opinion, I fully expected them to go insane comical and that's (unfortunately for me) exactly what they did.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Not a SW player, but I am interested in people's reactions to:
Murder* (fluff aside - is it a good unit? Worth it's points? Etc.)
The magic Grimbus (Again, goofy model aside, how well does it work in the game?)

I think Murderfang looks good on paper, for 170 points with a pod he could be a neat enough Ironclad equivalent, but specialising in anti infantry rather than AT (he can get an obscene number of attacks). I don't get the issue with his fluff either.

I may grabLogan further down the line just because the model looks great, I haven't given it much thought in game terms though. I don't like the trend of making characters LOW though.

I'd call my reaction "underwhelmed". The new format is wretched. The editing is as poor as usual.

The loss of a purchasable Eternal Warrior turns our beat stick HQs into JV scrubs like Chaos Lords.

On the other hand, Ulrik is going to be godly as a support character, as will Njal. Our fire support dreadnoughts got a little bit cheaper. Our Wolf Guard Terminators got a little cheaper. Long Fangs with rocket launchers got more expensive but lascannons got cheaper. Vindicators (which were never good for a short ranged army) got more expensive while Predators got a lot cheaper. Wolf Scouts became a total waste of a slot, but we were going to fill that slot with Wolf Guard and dreadnoughts anyway.

Oh, and who likes filling their army with Lone Wolves? I know I'll be bringing 2 or 3 with just a power sword to lurk around amidst the Lascannoneers as counter-assault support units.

It's a book of gains and losses, that just happens to be extremely poorly laid out and edited, and really, really shiny. It's not AM, but it's also not Tyranids.

Yes "Logan Claws" is going to change one of my favorite list, mostly because with the price drop I will find it hard to keep my 15-13 list at 13 models. [!,500 points, 13 models], but with "Logan Claws" as 320 points it might be doable.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I'd call my reaction "underwhelmed". The new format is wretched. The editing is as poor as usual.

The loss of a purchasable Eternal Warrior turns our beat stick HQs into JV scrubs like Chaos Lords.

On the other hand, Ulrik is going to be godly as a support character, as will Njal. Our fire support dreadnoughts got a little bit cheaper. Our Wolf Guard Terminators got a little cheaper. Long Fangs with rocket launchers got more expensive but lascannons got cheaper. Vindicators (which were never good for a short ranged army) got more expensive while Predators got a lot cheaper. Wolf Scouts became a total waste of a slot, but we were going to fill that slot with Wolf Guard and dreadnoughts anyway.

Oh, and who likes filling their army with Lone Wolves? I know I'll be bringing 2 or 3 with just a power sword to lurk around amidst the Lascannoneers as counter-assault support units.

It's a book of gains and losses, that just happens to be extremely poorly laid out and edited, and really, really shiny. It's not AM, but it's also not Tyranids.

So what HQs are worth taking now?

Disapointments:
Losing wolf standard, grey hunters have lost an edge in combat that they had before, they can still get the extra attacks at a price, but losing the once off re-rolls nerfs them alot and probably doesn't warrant the 2 point close combat weapon tax.

Terminators have lost some weapon options. Namely replacing storm bolter with storm shield, this invalidates some of my terminator models that have storm shield and axe/sword rather than hammer.
(I feel this is making them to in line with codex marines with SS/hammer and twin claw profiles)

No mixed armour wolf guard. Namely losing 2 heavy flamer + 6 combi flamer pod.

Wolf guard battle leaders now cost more than before.
It used to be 18 points + 5 for combi weapon. Now it costs 12-14 points + 10(for 1 leadership and 1 attack) and another 10 for combi-weapon, that equals 23 compared to 32-34 points, so a 30% increase in cost
Terminators were 33 points for a stock termi, now that is 12-14 +10+15 = 37-39 points. Not as bad as power armour leaders, but you lose the heavy weapon options.

Njal lost his storm ability and knowledge of all spells (he did get cheaper though)

Chooser, Mark of the wulfen, wolf tooth necklace and wolf tail talisman gone.

A lot of the deletions/changes have reduced the uniqueness of the space wolf codex IMHO.

Likes:
Some units got cheaper (blood claw pack now 180 instead of 225 )

relics added

unique spells kept (although many are worse than before)

New dreadnaught options

New flyer options

More pod options

In summary theres not much to make the codex stand out really, apart from the application of brute force. A lot of the uniqueness is gone, whether for balance or to please the masses is yet to be determined.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
All right - so I was super excited about getting my new codex. I've been waiting for SW's to be updated to 7th ed to hopefully be viable again. And I have to say that I'm really very pleased that many of the confusing or potentially problematic rules / wargear / psychic powers have been brought into line with the standard rules. At least they seem to be at first glance. However, it also seems like most things have been heavily nerfed. Now granted, some units really needed to be - Grey Hunters were underpriced for what they could do. But in applying the nerf, they've reduced Space Wolves (troops specifically) to be more or less much vanilla space marines. In exchange for that, SW players get

New stuff
1) the privilege of an $81 flying metal box. (stormwolf looks pretty good, but it's still 220 points).
2) Bjorn the Fell-Handed and Murderfang may be viable now. We'll see.
3) Logan Grimnar on a chariot. (srsly? WTF?)

Lots of wargear choice for troops vanished. Like;
- Mark of the Wulfen. This is probably fine, but it costs us versatility and flavor. It also means I've got 5 useless miniatures now.
- Wolf Totem is gone. No more re-rolls in the assault phase, and another 5 of my mini's are no longer wysisyg.
- Grey hunters have to pay 2 pts for CCW's. (DISLIKE). IMHO it should be 1 point but OK.

There's other stuff too. Anyway - Is it just me? Am I crazy to be disappointed, or am I missing something?

DISCUSS

It would seem that the Space Wolves got more new stuff then they lost. I wouldn't call most of the adjustments outright nerfs except for a few things. Jaws needed nerfing, and mixed armor is a nightmare in 7th edition, so I'm actually glad that can't happen in the Space Wolves codex anymore. The SW didn't lose any units/models, but gained more then a couple: Storm<noun> flyer, new Dreadnaughts and probably the best Dreadnaughts in the game, new Wolf Guard entries split out of the one entry making it much more clearer, another Thunderwolf character, and of course the unholy abomination of Logan Girmnar on a chariot pulled by wolves. I have no idea where that came from, or who in their right mind at GW Game Design thought it was fluffy or would fit in with the rest of the Space Wolves. Why not have him on a Thunderwolf for crying out loud? There are so many things wrong with that model... but you cannot deny it's effectiveness on the battlefield.

A few other things that jumped out at me:
1. Drop Pods as a separate fast attack choice in addition to a dedicated transport choice.
2. The reduction in cost of Thunderwolf Cavalry
3. The best Dreadnaught in the game- a Venerable Dread with a 3++!

not a wolf player, but is JoTWW gone now?

 Sir Arun wrote:
not a wolf player, but is JoTWW gone now?

It's still there, but it's focused witchfire meaning it's only hitting one model. Monsters are immune now too.

 Sir Arun wrote:
not a wolf player, but is JoTWW gone now?

Thousand of Necrons all over the universe roared in silence.

I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.

Its rules are pretty powerful. Extremely durable and grants 4 extra rending attacks and allows an extra pile in move. I think this unit gives a good indication of RAI for the whole chariot/rider with invulnerable save wargear issue since the chariot clearly states it has its own invulnerable save (this wouldn't be necessary if the chariot can use the rider's wargear).

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.

Its rules are pretty powerful. Extremely durable and grants 4 extra rending attacks and allows an extra pile in move. I think this unit gives a good indication of RAI for the whole chariot/rider with invulnerable save wargear issue since the chariot clearly states it has its own invulnerable save (this wouldn't be necessary if the chariot can use the rider's wargear).

I think you're the only person who has ever claimed that Logan Sleigh fits the fluff.

The SW player in our group is excited, his army got better. Which is terrible news for me.


I don't see much to be crabby about, I keep hearing "lost flavor". What does that mean?

Your GH still get their CCW, they have to pay for it like everyone else. (and if you don't take it, its a price drop on the unit)

Blood claws got a silly price drop and their rules now make them more useful. (they needed both)

TWC got better points wise, so did Lukas the trickster, sorry his special power isn't absurd anymore, still pretty damn good.

Your new flyer looks like a flying cargo container and hits like a ton of bricks. (NM you can put 15 Blood Claws in it with some IC and assault out of it, what's that Gorkanaut? No you aren't an assault vehicle....sit down)

Your Psychic powers are now in line with 7th edition psychic powers, OH WAIT, you kept access to biomancy and divination? Grats, the least psychic chapter is now 7x more psychic than an ork.




Bottom line: Its not a bad book. You can do worse. There were few fundamental changes that we didn't see coming based on how 7th edition is working. This book and the ork book both took the exact same trajectory, though this one came out ahead a bit because the base book already had some decent power in it.

We keep judging books based on the OP releases, but the truth is, the last few books have all been decent, without handing over powered BS to people. Compare this book to Nids, AM, Orks......they all follow a similar pattern, there isn't just one power build in each book anymore, and that encourages you to take new stuff. Hell, I haven't seen two ork armies that even look close to eachother yet in 7th.

SW were always a like them because of the fluff army, for awhile in 5th they had some stupid OP stuff and they were popular, then the meta switched to "Buffhammer 40k" and its all about how many rerolls you can get, and they fell away because they didn't have access to the cool kids powers. Now they have access to cool kids powers and a ton of decent options, but nothing that screams (at least not yet) OMG EVERYONE WE ARE GUNNA WIN THE TOURNEY NAO! I'd say that ought to be the goal of a codex.

Everything I've seen makes what I liked about the Wolves codex bad or worse. The special characters all got taken down another notch and made derpy. Grey Hunters are now just Grey Marines (BORING) and I get the special privilege to buy a unique flyer that really doesn't do much more than a Storm Raven. It all feels more "extreme vanilla" version of Wolves and selling you the flavor back later in supplement, the story of all the books since December to Remember 2013.

Direction of the game is still garbage, long story short. 5th, anyone?

 TheKbob wrote:
Everything I've seen makes what I liked about the Wolves codex bad or worse. The special characters all got taken down another notch and made derpy. Grey Hunters are now just Grey Marines (BORING) and I get the special privilege to buy a unique flyer that really doesn't do much more than a Storm Raven. It all feels more "extreme vanilla" version of Wolves and selling you the flavor back later in supplement, the story of all the books since December to Remember 2013.

Direction of the game is still garbage, long story short. 5th, anyone?

You're talking out of your posterior from what I can see.

I can't comment on the special characters but Grey Hunters can easily still be functionally the same as they can get double specials and CCWs+BPs, so your comment on "grey marines" is tripe.

The flyers have a new, insane and flavourful Helfrost weapon each that can remove high wound/EW models instantly, put out templates and do AT, I can't even think of another flyer that covers the first point.

Your last comment on flavour might have been justified with another Codex but here its just lacking in merit.

 Random Dude wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.

Its rules are pretty powerful. Extremely durable and grants 4 extra rending attacks and allows an extra pile in move. I think this unit gives a good indication of RAI for the whole chariot/rider with invulnerable save wargear issue since the chariot clearly states it has its own invulnerable save (this wouldn't be necessary if the chariot can use the rider's wargear).

I think you're the only person who has ever claimed that Logan Sleigh fits the fluff.

Not at all. I said much the same in N&R:

It fits the theme of the SW perfectly. Wolves are all about the deeds of their heroes, and what better way to emphasise that than a Chapter Master's personal combat chariot? It gets him to the thick of the fray, helps him rack up a kill tally while there, and just as importantly allows everyone else to see him taking heads, inspiring friend and terrifying foe.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.

Its rules are pretty powerful. Extremely durable and grants 4 extra rending attacks and allows an extra pile in move. I think this unit gives a good indication of RAI for the whole chariot/rider with invulnerable save wargear issue since the chariot clearly states it has its own invulnerable save (this wouldn't be necessary if the chariot can use the rider's wargear).

I think you're the only person who has ever claimed that Logan Sleigh fits the fluff.

Not at all. I said much the same in N&R:

It fits the theme of the SW perfectly. Wolves are all about the deeds of their heroes, and what better way to emphasise that than a Chapter Master's personal combat chariot? It gets him to the thick of the fray, helps him rack up a kill tally while there, and just as importantly allows everyone else to see him taking heads, inspiring friend and terrifying foe.

I guess the Viking Longboat idea makes sense, but the model doesn't look like a longboat. It looks like a toddler's little round toy boat.

Ok, now I have an image of Richard Simmons in a floating rowboat as a Robute Guiliman conversion using that new kit.