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First of all, I know this is almost failure. Second I need to try at least. Third, I hope I am in the right forum for this.

Sorry for the very long post but please bear with me. I am in a lull in my life. I want to change it. I have an idea but don't know how to start implement it. So as I tell my kids, if you don't know how to do something, ask. So I am asking here on Dakkadakka for help and ideas.

I use to play 40K, Lord of the Rings and buy GW stuff. I stopped because of the price increases and bad support for their games. I am basically priced out of the GW hobby. I found out about other games and got back into gaming a bit, but more collecting than playing. Me and my son wanted to start playing 40K again but found the rules do not fit us. So I am remaking 40K so it will be more fun for me and my son. It is taking a lot of work time and energy to do.

Right now, I am in a lull in my life. I want to change. Recently I have seen a new game called Dropzone Commander. I was shocked to read that it was all done mostly by one person. He made the game rules, the artwork and mini designs. (I could be wrong but it seems a lot of this was done by one person, please correct me if I am wrong.) So I am thinking to myself if something this great can be done by one person, why can't I do it? I see my son has some interest in trying to be an entrepreneur with mins, I am thinking since I am spending so much time making new rules for 40K, why not spend that time and energy making a new rule system for me and try and make a new company like Hawk Wargames?

So right now, this will all be for personal stuff. Just for me and my boy. But on the off chance this takes off and people are actually interested I am willing to try and make a company off the ground on this. Problem is, I don't know how or what to expect. If I want to make minis, how do I make them? I want to start of small. Make a few minis here, a few mins there. Question is, how do I make minis? How do I make molds? Do I use plastic or something else? Why do people use resin?

So how do I make miniatures? What do I need? What tools and products should I be looking at?

Also I just found out, a few of my rules seem to be implemented in other game systems that I don't even know about? What would happen if I made books and started to sell them with the rules that are in other games? What can happen? People can say I copied them, but I didn't even know they existed. I guess what I am asking is, how do you claim a rule set is yours and no ones else's rule set? When do you draw the line from "similarities" to "copying"?

For example I was going to have "reactionary fire". If an unit A passes Unit B, and if Unit B didn't move yet, they can shoot Unit A. I was told this is in other games. I didn't know about this other game and never seen this play style done before. So can I get in trouble for using it?

I wanted to use tokens. Now I see X-wing uses tokens. Can I get in trouble for this? I wanted to use armour tokens, but now I see the other day, that WizKids has D&D Attack Wing. It has armour tokens. I thought that was my idea. Now I see it implemented in another game. What can I do? I would really like to try and use my system but now I see it is similar to X-wing and D&D Attack Wing. I am not using move counters or move dials, but still wanted my counters being used. Can this still be my idea?

I have a lot more questions, but this is where I am stumped at. I am looking for all the help I can get. I would appreciate all and any help I can get.

Thank you for taking your time to read.

Loads of hobby businesses fail on the basics.

Before doing anything about making models and stuff you need to study some basic business management, like accounts and marketing.

First off, Welcome to Dakka, its a fun place and hopefully you'll have fun and learn some stuff here.

As to the endeavor you have chosen.....

I have not created a game or worked on miniatures so I am going to give you some general advice and hopefully some other great folks around here can chime in.

1. Get an idea of what you want to do.
1.a Setting- do you want Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Steampunk, different history etc....

2. Mini's - Do you want to start out as an RPG, Skirmish, Full Scale.....
2a Mini creation, CAD vs Clay Models.
2b Mini Manufacture - Plastic (expensive), Resin, White Metal. Do you plan on acquiring equipment and knowledge, do you know anyone when can cast?

3. Scale of said Mini's - 28mm, 15mm, 10mm etc.

4. Designers - inhouse vs hire out.

5. Funding - Big one here, Do you have the money? Do you have a plan to get the money? Do you even know how much you need?

6. Rules - Answer the first few then off to make it work. From what I have read I believe you can not copy right games rules per say, but this is something for an IP layer you need to hire.

7. Everything else I have no idea about.

First thing it is not the game you need to think about, but all the other things that go into a business. Are you ready to work 60-80+ hour weeks with no clue when you will start to make a profit. Do you have a way to foot the bills and when you final start making money do you have a growth plan. The game is just a small part of even getting the business off the ground. This is just scratching the surface of what it takes to run any buisness, and the gaming market is a tough one.

It will take a while and alot of work, this far I'm about 7-8 months into my own mass effect project and have had to have alot of back and forth with e.a regarding the publishing rights, you will need a legal aid of some kind depending on whether you are doing your own ip or useing someone else's.

Most importantly don't be put off by the grind, it's a hard thing to do initially

 darefsky wrote:
First off, Welcome to Dakka, its a fun place and hopefully you'll have fun and learn some stuff here.

From the 'Joined' date under his avatar, he's been a member of Dakka longer than you have.

Kilkrazy wrote:Loads of hobby businesses fail on the basics.

Before doing anything about making models and stuff you need to study some basic business management, like accounts and marketing.

Thank you for that. I was afraid of that. Something I am not interested in. Not good at that stuff like that, but luckily for my wife, she knows a bit of that. Hopefully if this takes off, she can take care of that department for me.

darefsky wrote:First off, Welcome to Dakka, its a fun place and hopefully you'll have fun and learn some stuff here.

Been here for a while, always in 40K general, but weird just found out about this section of the forum. Man I missed so much.

As to the endeavor you have chosen.....

I have not created a game or worked on miniatures so I am going to give you some general advice and hopefully some other great folks around here can chime in.

I appreciate anything you can give me. Thank you

1. Get an idea of what you want to do.
1.a Setting- do you want Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Steampunk, different history etc....

I am interested in Mechs. I always loved Battletech in my Teenage days. Nobody played so dropped it. All I know now is basically 40K. Trying to get into Dropzone Commander. Now I love the idea of infantry, tanks/vehciles/flyers and Mechs. So it will be sci-fi for me.

2. Mini's - Do you want to start out as an RPG, Skirmish, Full Scale.....
2a Mini creation, CAD vs Clay Models.
2b Mini Manufacture - Plastic (expensive), Resin, White Metal. Do you plan on acquiring equipment and knowledge, do you know anyone when can cast?

No RPG. I thought ages ago, Battletech was the way to go. Then one thing 40K taught me was to keep things simple. 40K is not so simple anymore. I had some ideas but now I see X-wing/Star Trek Attack Wing have some of my ideas already in the game. I guess Warmahords as well. I wanted to use cards and tokens in my game. Now I see they use my system I wanted to use.

3. Scale of said Mini's - 28mm, 15mm, 10mm etc.

I thought I had mentioned this in my thread. I redone my thread like 3,4 or 5 times and maybe left it out. I see why Dropzone Commander is done in 10mm but I HATE how infantry looks. Thing is, I like how 40K is, but having mechs would seem huge compared to that. So maybe my scale will be a combination of both. Smaller mechs so they are not so huge but have good sized infantry minis. For me infantry will be the scoring units in the game. So no infantry, no scoring units so we want nice looking infantry minis. I think this is where Dropzone Commander fails for now.

Maybe I have to make my own scale. Still thinking of this heavily.

4. Designers - inhouse vs hire out.

In house. If Hawk Wargames can do it, so can I. Also cheaper that way, and I own everything.

5. Funding - Big one here, Do you have the money? Do you have a plan to get the money? Do you even know how much you need?

No funding at all. This is why I am starting small. Making my own rules and learn how to make some minis so this way, once I know how to do it, I can then see where I need to go to make it bigger production. If anything it will be worked out in my basement and I will do all the work. If people are actually interested in it (is this is what Kickstarters are for?) then I will see if I want to be going bigger and seeing if I need to out source production or do it myself and hire others to do it.

So it's start small in basement, if money is to be made, go to the bank and see what happens.

6. Rules - Answer the first few then off to make it work. From what I have read I believe you can not copy right games rules per say, but this is something for an IP layer you need to hire.

Not sure what you mean here, "answer the first few"? I guess if I am not using the Flight Path system I should be ok then. I just wanted to make sure using phrases like "activation", "reactionary fire" I don't get in trouble with.

7. Everything else I have no idea about.

Thank your for taking your time, greatly appreciated.

Formosa wrote:It will take a while and alot of work, this far I'm about 7-8 months into my own mass effect project and have had to have alot of back and forth with e.a regarding the publishing rights, you will need a legal aid of some kind depending on whether you are doing your own ip or useing someone else's.

Most importantly don't be put off by the grind, it's a hard thing to do initially

How do you know if you are using someone else's IP? I mean it's not like I am stealing what I don't know exists.

As to rules, the simple answer is 'go nuts, but don't copy anything word for word.'

Rules are not protected by copyright as a...rule...although the exact text of a rule could be. (I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice)

Also, as a personal point of advice, don't ever be worried about telling people about your rules. Play test, play test, and play test. Don't worry about someone 'stealing' your rules. First, your rules are probably not all that unique anyhow, and second, people can and will borrow from your rules. You can't stop it, and that's how you start designing a great rule set anyway!

Too many games suck because the creator was being all silly proprietary about rules.

As for models, here's the short version:

There are three big things that go into a miniature:

Sculpting

Mold-making

Casting

The more you can do yourself, the cheaper it is.

These days you can run a miniature business from your house with an idea, a laptop, an internet connection, and lots of money to piss away. (plus all the other bs that an online retail business needs to function - as KillKrazy points out).

You can hire a digital sculptor to sculpt your miniature via Zbrush or some other CAD program, transfer that file to a company that will 3D print the miniature (and possibly clean it for you), and send that print to a company that will clean it, make molds, and cast you a production run.

But like I said, the more you do yourself, the cheaper it is, and in practice there's a lot of nuance to those steps.

Sculpting:

Your two big methods are digital and hand sculpting.

Fees are not terribly different between the two. Depending on the quality you are looking for, you can pay something in the range of $200-$2000 per miniature for a sculpt, though anything that makes the process easier for a miniature will reduce cost, such as being able to make a few changes to a miniature to give you a unit with different poses.

If you sculpt digitally, you've got to 3D print. There's a lot of nuance to that and costs vary depending on lots of factors.

If you use traditional hand sculpting you've got a risk in that you have a lot of investment in a piece of artwork that can get lost in the mail and could be destroyed in the mold-making process.

Mold-making:

This goes hand in hand with casting, but it involves totally separate know-how. That is, your mold depends on what material you want to cast out of, but making the mold, regardless of the end material, is a specialized skill set.

Regardless of the mold type, you are going to first create a master (unless you are doing a steel mold for high impact polystyrene). Mastering basically means that you make a mold from your original from which you cast "masters" that are used to make production molds. For example, the sculptor sculpts a green, you make a mold from that green, cast five copies (masters) from that mold, clean them up, and use them to make a production mold that spins 5 copies per go.

Master molds get used less often, so don't degrade as quickly, but you'll always eventually lose quality over the life of a product, though the practical life of most miniatures sold by small companies is exceeded before you start losing noticeable quality.

You've got four big materials nowadays for miniatures:

Pewter (white metal) - This is some alloy of predominantly Tin with a small percentage of other metals, such as copper, bismuth, antimony, silver, and sometimes even lead (though almost nobody uses alloys with lead anymore). These various alloys subtly alter the behavior of the metal, but on a practical level most casters won't discern a distinction. The price of metal fluctuates with the price of Tin, as Tin is a commodity. Right now, prices fluctuate between $12-$15 per pound for metals used in spin casting miniatures. A typical 28mm human size miniature will weigh something like 0.2-0.6 oz. You can do the math.

Spin cast metal is usually done in vulcanized rubber molds. There's a few different types of rubber with variations in properties/performace. Some types are more flexible and vulcanize with less heat/pressure and are therefore used for making masters as they are easier on the greens.

Vulcanization is essentially subjecting rubber to sulfur and heat. This causes the molecular structure of the rubber to organize into a more rigid structure. But don't worry about the science since you can get mold blanks all prepped and ready to for heat/pressure.

Vulcanization is normally done in a vulcanizer. This is basically a hydraulic press with heated plates. Brand new a vulcanizer will run you about 3 grand, but you can buy used or reconditioned equipment, or use...interesting...methods that are much cheaper, like D clamps and an oven . The basic process is thus: you put one half of a mold blank into a "mold can" which is basically a metal ring the same size as your mold with a detachable top and bottom. Then you lay in your miniatures (there's an art to this and you will have to cut little voids, add material, etc. to support parts and whatnot). The you pop in the top half of your mold blank and a dealie to give you a hole in which to pour molten metal. When the mold goes into the vulcanizer the plates heat up and the mold get squished at something like 2,000 psi (again, depending on what you are doing). When heated, the rubber first liquefies and flows around the miniatures, then solidifies. (cool huh!). Pop out the probably crushed miniatures and then you have the start of your mold.

Now you have to cut channels and vents. You have a hard chunk of rubber with holes in it, bo no way for the liquid metal to flow into those holes. You have to cut channels from the center hole in the top middle of the mold to allow metal to flow into those voids, and also cut vents to allow air to escape the voids as the metal flows in, replacing and compressing the extant air. This is also something of an art.

In production, the mold is placed into a machine that compresses both halves of the mold to keep them steady and also spins the mold quickly (RPMs depend on what you are trying to cast). There is a hole in the top middle of the mold and a hole in the lid of the machine. This hole has a rubber tube that extends down into the machine towards the top of the mold. While the mold is spinning, you scoop up some molten metal and pour it into the top of the machine. It flows down into the top of the mold, where centrifugal force pushes it down the mold channels and into the mold cavities. You turn of the machine, allow the mold to spin down until it stops, pop it out (let it cool a bit) and demold your miniatures. Rinse and repeat.

Okay, your next material is resin, usually polyurathane resin. I'll let somebody else handle the details of that as I know there are folks that understand the material a lot better than me. But as far as molds go, the reason to use resin is that you can tolerate more "undercuts" in the mold. That is, areas that prevent a piece from being removed from a mold because the mold 'wraps around' the piece. Resin doesn't get as hot as molten metal, so you don't need a mold material that can tolerate heat (like vulcanized rubber can). This means you can use a more flexible material, such as silicone of some flavor or another. The mold can bend and deform as you "demold" allowing the miniature to be removed.

Resin is often gravity cast, meaning you have a two part mold and you pour liquid resin into it, but can also be spincast. Resin can also be a nasty, annoying substance to work with. Because resin molds are often flexed and deformed, they wear out quickly. This means that resin casting is very labor intensive. Lots of mold-making, lots of hand casting.

Then you have PVC and High Impact Polystyrene. Somebody else can explain those. The short version is that PVC is a newer material in the industry, you can't do it at home, and it'll cost several thousand for every mold. HIPS is something you definitely can't do at home unless you are weirdly rich or start a brand new crazy hobby all its own. It can cost tens of thousands for a mold.

SO, what are the advantages and costs associated with various materials?

Resin is VERY cheap to start casting with. You can get all your needed materials from Smooth-On, watch some tutorial videos, and get crackin' making horribly failed molds for a little while until you sort out the nuances. But, you'll be spending lots of time casting, demolding, and whatnot.

Spincast metal is possible to do at home if you have a few thousand dollars to put into machinery, a clear corner of your garage, and the desire to work with molten metal (which is terribly fun). A spin caster can cost you about 3K new, but you can get one for 1-2K used, or build your own if you are the handy and adventurous type. As I mentioned above, vulcanizers can run about the same. Mold blanks are about 20 bucks a pop. You'll also need a melt furnace, which you can do expensive-like with a natural gas-powered one :(, or just buy a much cheaper melter of the sort that folks use to make their own bullets.

The nice thing about metal is that when you screw up, you can melt your mistakes and try again, so you don't lose much material. When you screw up resin your are out the material costs.

You can hire services to do your resin or metal casting, in which case you'll usually be paying some per-miniature rate, which in the long run will drive your costs sky high unless you are cutting them elsewhere, such as by doing your own sculpting. A service that casts will usually also make molds. Prices for master molds are more expensive than production molds, but in general it can cost anything from $50-$500 to get a miniature ready for production casting. This variability is caused by the number of miniatures in a master mold versus a production mold, the type of material you are using, etc. and so forth.

That was long and rambling, but should get you started.

Valiant Enterprises - This is a very reputable US casting service that does both metal and resin casting. This should give you an idea about prices. Most pricing is not terribly variable in the sense that the prices you will get from different companies is usually broadly similar.

There are plenty of casting and mold-making services around, but unfortunately they tend to make themselves hard to find. Most folks who do their own casting will do contract casting if they have spare time, so you can always start inquires in that way. Spin casting metal is an old school way of making miniatures, and some consider it to be something of a guarded 'art', believed to be properly taught through some sort of antiquated master/apprentice relationship. Feth that though.

If you want to cast miniatures, the best way to start is to DO IT! Once you have the basic set up, your material costs are pretty reasonable, allowing you to learn by doing. Recasting is a great way to learn without running the risk of fething up an expensive green. Just grab a miniature, make a mold, and cast it!

 Ghaz wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
First off, Welcome to Dakka, its a fun place and hopefully you'll have fun and learn some stuff here.

From the 'Joined' date under his avatar, he's been a member of Dakka longer than you have.

That's because I'm an idiot sometimes and confused his image count with post count.......

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Loads of hobby businesses fail on the basics.

Before doing anything about making models and stuff you need to study some basic business management, like accounts and marketing.

+1 to this

 djphranq wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Loads of hobby businesses fail on the basics.

Before doing anything about making models and stuff you need to study some basic business management, like accounts and marketing.

+1 to this

OR, you can cast for personal funzies to see if you like it and then later decide to start a business.

It is good advice to say that you should have your business-type ducks in a row before starting a business, but that's always true.

More practical advice about the business of miniatures is that

The more you do yourself the cheaper it is

You can spend a gakload of money making miniatures and wind up with really tight margins. If you want to get started quick, you can throw a lot of money around and get some miniatures made, but doing that helps encourage you to not know very much about how the production process works.

You can spend a comparatively small amount of money getting everything you need to make your own miniatures and play around with it at home before starting a company.

Just think:

You want to get 10 miniatures made. You pay a concept artist $1,000, you pay a sculptor $2,000, you pay a 3D printer $2,000, you pay a casing service $5,000. You've got 1000 nice-looking miniatures and for less than a third of the cost you could buy your own home spin casting setup.

Wouldn't it be easier for him to get someone to make the prototype models and moulds and he just learns to cast them and eventually make moulds to replace old ones?

Thank you Weeble1000, you gave me a lot to ponder. I am glad I made this post, my eyes are OPEN now, and I feel overwhelmed.

At least now I have an idea production wise. Now it's time for design wise.

I am curious, anyone willing to help me out? I give my ideas and you critique and say what you think and how it can be improved or not.

Also anyone wants to play test? I will be needing play testers.

Now that I have a slight idea, I am going to concentrate on making rules now. Took me over 1 hour to think what to do lol.

==============================================

SOME RULES.

Right now, I am going on the 3 dice principle. (actually more but please bear with me.) The reason I say dice is because it's what I am using but it can be tokens, beads or what ever.

As a Standard Human with a weapon, I am thinking you get one Green Die (Movement), one Red Die (Attack) One Blue die (defence) and for something like a Space Marine (just calling it now so we can all relate and then change the names and fluff later, will have one Black Die (Armour).

You can move 6". If you don't want to attack or make a defensive roll, remove the die (or token) and add 6" to your move. So in 40K terms it's like moving 6", not shooting and being able to run.

If you don't want to shoot or defend, use both Red and Blue tokens so you can run 12" +d6 extra. I was thinking at first to say it's 18" but that might seem a bit much so was thinking 12"+d6. This way I say you are doing a sprint, concentrating on running, and not targeting anyone or worried about getting hit, you just want to get to that cover or where ever you are running too.

12"+d6 or just a plain 18" and forget about the random. I was thinking the random part could be the person or unit is getting tired at the end and may or may not make that bit of extra distance.

So what do you thing and why?

Bear in mind that what sounds good on paper looks different on the table. You've got to play it over and over. Once you think it is the best ever, you need to get outside opinions. You'll find, without a doubt, that you didn't think of everything.

It's sort of like building a boat. Design is really important, but you don't know if it floats until you put it in the water.

Everyone above has posted some very excellent and true information. I would like to add to this as well.

First off , for your rules and game, I would highly recommend you go out and try a few game systems out, as it sounds like you have only experienced 40k as your only wargame and playing a few others, well known and not so well known can really help you build perspective on new and more innovative ideas. It is also very important after trying a few game types to then begin thinking on what scale of game you would like to create ( setting aside is truly up to you to create and make). Is it going to be a small scale character progression game? A skirmish game? A larger platoon scale game? A large scale game up too a company? or larger?.

The larger the scale of combat the smaller the scale the miniatures scale should be, the smaller the scale of combat the larger the miniatures should be, I have found to be a very good rule of logic to follow. If you try to do 28mm with a company scale, your going to run into many , many issues with game scale , weapon ranges , movement and just plain gaming space, I made a post about this exact thing on a different thread I will try to find it and add it to here. Also too include into this, doing smaller scale miniatures in larger scale games makes these games much more affordable to start up a line in and support and expand those said miniature lines.

However the best advice I can give right now for yourself is get a small idea of what your looking for in a miniatures game for yourself and your son, then go and create some fluff and ideas of what races would be in your setting. Then go and produce a small pack of miniatures or even 1. This will give you a lot of knowledge and trial and error to learn from, you will learn from concept art, sculpting , casting and final product many useful things that will save you from avoiding the messes we see from kickstarters at times. Find a Caster Resin or Metal ( see note below) get some concept art done including the pose, send that to your caster who can inform you on what would have to be done to cast a miniature of that scale and pose. Relay that with your sculptor and this will save you from having ... casting issues later down the line . I cannot recommend enough starting with something small and workable will give you a very good idea on pricing for your range and what type of money you will need to produce what you want to produce and give you invaluable experience in starting a miniatures company.

note- Plastics are very , very costly , not for the material but the molds are far beyond what most starting companies can afford , I would strongly recommend starting with Resin or Metal for your miniatures and if you can reach the point of demand and productivity not seen often in this market , then it could be worthwhile to invest in plastic .

hope this helps you get a good idea of starting out with your company!.

with best regards - Shawn.

Tyron wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier for him to get someone to make the prototype models and moulds and he just learns to cast them and eventually make moulds to replace old ones?

Mold making is pretty cheap, so that's a viable option, at least with spin casting. And once you have a mold in your hands, lightbulbs start going off.

If you are making silicone molds, gak man, just make 'em yourself until you figure out how to do it right. You can make pretty good silicone molds with just some cardboard, clay, and a glue gun. There's certainly more complicated ways to make a silicone mold though.

Silicon molds was interesting to learn but you will probably burn through a bit of it and resin just trying to figure out gates and vents

You should probably flesh out the game first at the least to see if its viable then after extensive play testing get it published. its the least likely to drain all your money

After than and if there is a decent interest in it, then you can get into the models n stuff.

A few other things to keep in mind...

When looking at your rules - they can help sell...or they may not at all. If you want to become a PP or CB, and have your miniatures sold hand in hand with the game - it can be a bit riskier as your miniatures might be perfectly fine, but the rules are off (or vise versa) and it sinks your whole plan.

When looking at miniatures, it is possible to sell them without rules at all. Most companies actually function that way. They are either entirely generic (Hasslefree, Zombicide, Valiant, most of Reaper...) or are tied to a specific game style to pick at the edges of their customer base (Hi-Tech, Scribor...). While it may not pay for a beach house in Malibu and a new Bentley - most of those companies make reasonably comfortable amounts of money.

Start off slow, and as Weeble said - do as much in house as you can. Most the "gaming" companies I have known to go under in the past several years have done so because of outside expenses - not lack of sales. When your spin caster doubles the price per spin and you have no stock in hand...you are put in a very tight spot with your customers (some of whom may have pending orders already).

Treat it like a business. Track things like a business. However, for the first couple years - expect to have to work a day job to pay for things. Gentlemen's agreements are great for the initial conversations - but still, have a contract written up with the terms agreed upon. You don't want to get stuck in a bind, because your friend becomes not so friendly for any number of reasons.

For the rules - game as much as you can for a good while. Play as many different rules as you can. Read the reviews of rules to see what people like and don't like. However, DONT try to be the Progresso of rules. Don't include things just because they are popular if they don't mesh well with your general concept and style (one of the best things Infinity has done has been avoiding vehicles in their games IMO...even though a lot of people - including myself - would like to see vehicles in Infinity).

Once you get rules - hit up stores and have strangers play your game. If possible, do the convention circuit a bit to play test the game a bit too. If you decide to include points - do the math to balance things. Points are not needed but if you include them - they should work and make sense. If you don't include them, then be aware that many "hardcore" gamers won't pick up the rules.

Talk to as many people as you can who are actually doing it. With the exception of one company - I have never had any real issues getting behind the scenes information from any of them. They can tell you what went right, what went wrong and what they wish they never would have done. Sometimes, it helps to soften them up with beer and steak (conventions are a good thing), but most the time - a simple email can get a lot of answers. Outside of that one company - most are in it for the enjoyment almost as much (or more) than for the actual business. As a result, they are happy to give friendly advise to the "competition".

Don't forget that what you see is a very, very small portion of the market. This forum is a very small portion of the market (all forums are - casual gamers generally don't hang out in game forums...). Those casual gamers can keep a one man show comfortably employed (200-300 new customers a year on a $100 game - miniatures and rules - after costs should be $60-75K). Won't be fame and fortune, but compared to the daily grind - $60K isn't horrible (provided you can keep the wife working...).

Oh boy, I don't even know where to start. Let me make sure I have this right. You don't know anything about miniature production, accounting, marketing, or running a business in general, but you want to start a business making miniatures where you do the production, accounting and marketing? I've seen this one before, I know how it ends and it isn't pretty. I'm not trying to be negative here, just realistic. To put it in perspective, it's like someone saying they don't know how to make a grilled cheese sandwich but their wife knows a little about them, and then asking what kind of restaurant they should open where they will be the owner and head chef. Your idea may work if you throw enough money at it and bring the right people in. More likely, you will end up throwing a lot of time and money down a hole. The other guys who started a war game company that ended up being successful had knowledge and cash on hand going into it. Bottom line, don't open a restaurant if you can't cook and don't know anything about the food service industry.

underfire wargaming wrote:

Spoiler:

Everyone above has posted some very excellent and true information. I would like to add to this as well.

First off , for your rules and game, I would highly recommend you go out and try a few game systems out, as it sounds like you have only experienced 40k as your only wargame and playing a few others, well known and not so well known can really help you build perspective on new and more innovative ideas. It is also very important after trying a few game types to then begin thinking on what scale of game you would like to create ( setting aside is truly up to you to create and make). Is it going to be a small scale character progression game? A skirmish game? A larger platoon scale game? A large scale game up too a company? or larger?.

The larger the scale of combat the smaller the scale the miniatures scale should be, the smaller the scale of combat the larger the miniatures should be, I have found to be a very good rule of logic to follow. If you try to do 28mm with a company scale, your going to run into many , many issues with game scale , weapon ranges , movement and just plain gaming space, I made a post about this exact thing on a different thread I will try to find it and add it to here. Also too include into this, doing smaller scale miniatures in larger scale games makes these games much more affordable to start up a line in and support and expand those said miniature lines.

However the best advice I can give right now for yourself is get a small idea of what your looking for in a miniatures game for yourself and your son, then go and create some fluff and ideas of what races would be in your setting. Then go and produce a small pack of miniatures or even 1. This will give you a lot of knowledge and trial and error to learn from, you will learn from concept art, sculpting , casting and final product many useful things that will save you from avoiding the messes we see from kickstarters at times. Find a Caster Resin or Metal ( see note below) get some concept art done including the pose, send that to your caster who can inform you on what would have to be done to cast a miniature of that scale and pose. Relay that with your sculptor and this will save you from having ... casting issues later down the line . I cannot recommend enough starting with something small and workable will give you a very good idea on pricing for your range and what type of money you will need to produce what you want to produce and give you invaluable experience in starting a miniatures company.

note- Plastics are very , very costly , not for the material but the molds are far beyond what most starting companies can afford , I would strongly recommend starting with Resin or Metal for your miniatures and if you can reach the point of demand and productivity not seen often in this market , then it could be worthwhile to invest in plastic .

hope this helps you get a good idea of starting out with your company!.

with best regards - Shawn.

Thank you very much. You have given me some great ideas.

Desubot wrote:Silicon molds was interesting to learn but you will probably burn through a bit of it and resin just trying to figure out gates and vents

You should probably flesh out the game first at the least to see if its viable then after extensive play testing get it published. its the least likely to drain all your money

After than and if there is a decent interest in it, then you can get into the models n stuff.

Now that you guys have opened my eyes to see what is needed, yeah I won't even think about making minis right now but a rules set to go with it first. I think I can concentrate on the rules now first.

Sean_OBrien wrote:

Spoiler:

A few other things to keep in mind...

When looking at your rules - they can help sell...or they may not at all. If you want to become a PP or CB, and have your miniatures sold hand in hand with the game - it can be a bit riskier as your miniatures might be perfectly fine, but the rules are off (or vise versa) and it sinks your whole plan.

When looking at miniatures, it is possible to sell them without rules at all. Most companies actually function that way. They are either entirely generic (Hasslefree, Zombicide, Valiant, most of Reaper...) or are tied to a specific game style to pick at the edges of their customer base (Hi-Tech, Scribor...). While it may not pay for a beach house in Malibu and a new Bentley - most of those companies make reasonably comfortable amounts of money.

Start off slow, and as Weeble said - do as much in house as you can. Most the "gaming" companies I have known to go under in the past several years have done so because of outside expenses - not lack of sales. When your spin caster doubles the price per spin and you have no stock in hand...you are put in a very tight spot with your customers (some of whom may have pending orders already).

Treat it like a business. Track things like a business. However, for the first couple years - expect to have to work a day job to pay for things. Gentlemen's agreements are great for the initial conversations - but still, have a contract written up with the terms agreed upon. You don't want to get stuck in a bind, because your friend becomes not so friendly for any number of reasons.

For the rules - game as much as you can for a good while. Play as many different rules as you can. Read the reviews of rules to see what people like and don't like. However, DONT try to be the Progresso of rules. Don't include things just because they are popular if they don't mesh well with your general concept and style (one of the best things Infinity has done has been avoiding vehicles in their games IMO...even though a lot of people - including myself - would like to see vehicles in Infinity).

Once you get rules - hit up stores and have strangers play your game. If possible, do the convention circuit a bit to play test the game a bit too. If you decide to include points - do the math to balance things. Points are not needed but if you include them - they should work and make sense. If you don't include them, then be aware that many "hardcore" gamers won't pick up the rules.

Talk to as many people as you can who are actually doing it. With the exception of one company - I have never had any real issues getting behind the scenes information from any of them. They can tell you what went right, what went wrong and what they wish they never would have done. Sometimes, it helps to soften them up with beer and steak (conventions are a good thing), but most the time - a simple email can get a lot of answers. Outside of that one company - most are in it for the enjoyment almost as much (or more) than for the actual business. As a result, they are happy to give friendly advise to the "competition".

Don't forget that what you see is a very, very small portion of the market. This forum is a very small portion of the market (all forums are - casual gamers generally don't hang out in game forums...). Those casual gamers can keep a one man show comfortably employed (200-300 new customers a year on a $100 game - miniatures and rules - after costs should be $60-75K). Won't be fame and fortune, but compared to the daily grind - $60K isn't horrible (provided you can keep the wife working...).

I think I will try that. Thank you. Never thought of asking other people how they started their company and what it entails for them. Again, thanks for the other advice as well.

Toofast wrote:Oh boy, I don't even know where to start. Let me make sure I have this right. You don't know anything about miniature production, accounting, marketing, or running a business in general, but you want to start a business making miniatures where you do the production, accounting and marketing? I've seen this one before, I know how it ends and it isn't pretty. I'm not trying to be negative here, just realistic. To put it in perspective, it's like someone saying they don't know how to make a grilled cheese sandwich but their wife knows a little about them, and then asking what kind of restaurant they should open where they will be the owner and head chef. Your idea may work if you throw enough money at it and bring the right people in. More likely, you will end up throwing a lot of time and money down a hole. The other guys who started a war game company that ended up being successful had knowledge and cash on hand going into it. Bottom line, don't open a restaurant if you can't cook and don't know anything about the food service industry.

Yeah, I know this won't take off, but I know I will kick my self in the arse if I don't at least try. In most cases, this will fall flat on my face and now seeing a very small part what it entails, I now know it is going to be a very big endeavour. I will start small and just take it from there.

Again, thank you everyone you gave me a lot of food for thought.

What can i say , play test , play test , play test and play test.
Play with some one who is into a lot of games, learn to handle critique (and the internet hate :p)

make a basic plan on what your game will be, and if you play 40k, you know that background story is important to set the tone of the game.

Or you could go the way of paulson games and dreamforge game of first making the miniatures and afterwards release the rules.

But what king of working background have you? Do you have skills in CAD, sculpting, drawing, writing, management etcetera?

As others said, play test, alot of my initial ideas had to be changed or dropped entirely due to being too complex or just not fitting with the ruleset, if you find yourself making alot of rules to contradict the main rules then your probably going to have a problem

There's a talented young chap called Alex who runs http://www.warploqueminiatures.co.uk/ from his uni digs/parents house.

He started sculpting, then wrote some rules and launched a very successful kickstarter. The scuplts are fantastic and he's currently reworking the rules.

The site is being rebuilt but his Fb is https://www.facebook.com/warploqueminiatures so maybe drop him a line for some advice from someone who's come through the other end?!

 Formosa wrote:

It will take a while and alot of work, this far I'm about 7-8 months into my own mass effect project

You had me at Mass Effect. Any more info available on this?! Need play testers?!

I miss Shepard

Yep. Play test thoroughly.
Organize your notes and rules into a document that makes some kind of sense. Then decide on how you want the rules of your game to look. This is where a designer can make what you wrote look professional. From there you could self-publish your game with a limited print run, and/or sell PDFs of your game, or sell it to a game publisher.

Then build a website or FB page to get the support ball rolling. If the game is a hit there will be questions and suggestions. This leads up to an eventual revised and expanded edition.

weeble1000 wrote:

Tyron wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier for him to get someone to make the prototype models and moulds and he just learns to cast them and eventually make moulds to replace old ones?

Mold making is pretty cheap, so that's a viable option, at least with spin casting. And once you have a mold in your hands, lightbulbs start going off.

If you are making silicone molds, gak man, just make 'em yourself until you figure out how to do it right. You can make pretty good silicone molds with just some cardboard, clay, and a glue gun. There's certainly more complicated ways to make a silicone mold though.

From what I've gathered from the OP his time would be better spent just getting the concepts to the sculptors and then mold makers, sell the models through a kickstarter while developing rules on the side. When he develops his rules into a game and he will need professional help and that costs and with the capital from the kickstarter this can give him the leverage needed.

Once he is in a position, learn the mold making and casting process, train someone he trusts to take over so he can further the rules development and then do a kickstarter with that.

But to get there he will need a lot of help to get the ball rolling I feel.

Tyron wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

Tyron wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier for him to get someone to make the prototype models and moulds and he just learns to cast them and eventually make moulds to replace old ones?

Mold making is pretty cheap, so that's a viable option, at least with spin casting. And once you have a mold in your hands, lightbulbs start going off.

If you are making silicone molds, gak man, just make 'em yourself until you figure out how to do it right. You can make pretty good silicone molds with just some cardboard, clay, and a glue gun. There's certainly more complicated ways to make a silicone mold though.

From what I've gathered from the OP his time would be better spent just getting the concepts to the sculptors and then mold makers, sell the models through a kickstarter while developing rules on the side. When he develops his rules into a game and he will need professional help and that costs and with the capital from the kickstarter this can give him the leverage needed.

Once he is in a position, learn the mold making and casting process, train someone he trusts to take over so he can further the rules development and then do a kickstarter with that.

But to get there he will need a lot of help to get the ball rolling I feel.

Sure, and throw money down a hole. A trained monkey can learn to spin cast. Casting and mold making are not terribly complex skills. Anyone can learn how to do it. In any business, you've got to decide what it is worth spending your time on and what it is worth paying others to do, but the most consistent thing I have heard when starting my own miniatures business has been that one of the most important things is being able to do as much production as you can in house.

If you aren't sculpting your miniatures, you already have a huge set of expenses. If you aren't creating your own artwork, you already have a huge set of expenses. If you aren't doing your own graphic design, you already have a huge set of expenses.

Those are all skills that A) rely heavily on talent, and B) take years of work and often college education to do well. A trained monkey can cast miniatures, so it is a skill worth learning to do yourself.

One of the things I learned starting my own company is to learn as much as possible as cheaply as possible and not commit to expenses until I was confident in exactly what I needed. There were a couple of things I wasted money on that ended up being irrelevant, but there was never anything I deferred spending money on that I felt like I should have bought earlier.

So my advice would be to start without spending anything (or as little as possible) until you get a better feel for what you want to do. Experiment with rules, setting, scope, etc. This can all be done without spending a dime, or at least very little, and can help you explore what you don't know before you commit to something.

Can't really say much regarding miniatures, but as somebody trying to start up a RPG company I will say that books can be as easy or as hard to bring together as you make them.

I will also suggest when you do produce your rulebook do as a PDF and use Wargame Vault's Print-On-Demand service, I use it through their sister site RPGNow and been quite happy with the service (plus it'll save you alot of money).

There is a very old joke in the gaming industry - dating back to 1982 at least...

Q. How do you make a small fortune in the gaming industry?
A. Start with a large one.

 stormwell wrote:
Can't really say much regarding miniatures, but as somebody trying to start up a RPG company I will say that books can be as easy or as hard to bring together as you make them.

I will also suggest when you do produce your rulebook do as a PDF and use Wargame Vault's Print-On-Demand service, I use it through their sister site RPGNow and been quite happy with the service (plus it'll save you alot of money).

Agreed.

And you can start with thinner PDFs, only releasing to print when you have enough material to justify the expense.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
There is a very old joke in the gaming industry - dating back to 1982 at least...

Q. How do you make a small fortune in the gaming industry?
A. Start with a large one.

 stormwell wrote:
Can't really say much regarding miniatures, but as somebody trying to start up a RPG company I will say that books can be as easy or as hard to bring together as you make them.

I will also suggest when you do produce your rulebook do as a PDF and use Wargame Vault's Print-On-Demand service, I use it through their sister site RPGNow and been quite happy with the service (plus it'll save you alot of money).

Agreed.

And you can start with thinner PDFs, only releasing to print when you have enough material to justify the expense.

The Auld Grump

lol. Yes, a lot of successful TTG companies have been started with personal fortunes.

You can also order small stock runs of your own print on demand books and sell them at cost or a small margin. You don't make any profit that way, but it is a way that you can directly sell your own printed rulebooks without having to spend a bundle on a big production run.

Rules can help to sell models. Rarely is the reverse true, in the sense that you are going to always have a hard time profiting from a rulebook compared to a miniature.

You can spin out a metal miniature for a dollar (and that would be really pricey even for a contract service) and retail it at $8-$15. And this with massively less development costs than a good rulebook. Editing alone will run 4-6 cents per word. Then there's the art...art art art art!