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I have a tournament in October - 1800 points.. it's a one day event 3 games best overall score wins.. I will always try to be friendly but I want to be competitive. I suspect there will be a lot of gamey/cheesy lists there.. so I need to hole my own and give a good game :-/

HQ
1 Farseer Bike SSoA SS RoW+W 160
5 Warlock Bike SS 275
Troops
1 Wave Serp HF SC SL 140
5 Dire Avengers 65
1 Wave Serp HF SC SL 140
5 Dire Avengers 65
1 Wave Serp HF SC SL 140
10 Guardians 90
1 Wave Serp HF SC SL 140
10 Guardians 90
Heavy
3 WraithLords 2xBL GG 495

the thing is, realistically is this a good list? It partly reflects my own models (some deliberately on their way to being painted), and partly what I haven't used before (never tried a jetseer council, nor 3 wraithlords) I was toying with other builds and I have a LOT of eldar models (10 of every eldar unit GW make, and everything except a wraithknight) but I want to paint to what I take and I can realistically paint up this army in the time allowed.. hence my bias.. what I mean is some of it is painted, some I am working on.. so it partly reflects that "agenda" too.. however I digress.. the question is is the jetseer too light what do I roll on for my farseer (I basically want to get protect, fortune - for DOUBLE 2+ rerolllable, {reroll either cover save 2+ for AP2 or rerollable 2+ base armour for ignores cover and a 4+ invul rerollable /look out sir for a bad day at the office} for the SSoA means that it costs 1warp) the rest of the powers I don't mind.. (should I mind?) however does anyone have any mathshammer as to how I ensure that I successfully cast those without risking too much the idea is not to enter melee with the council but use singing spears and run away 2D6

is this how I should use a seer council? the tourney psychic powers are rolled once at the start and are kept for whole tourney

Jet council is just....no.
Same with wraith lords.

Everything else looks good.

jet council is just, yes. Amazing unit, ninja is against it in EVERY post hes ever made on this forum, he continually mentions it getting nerfed over and over again, id like to actually see the nerfs that hes talking about though.

Hes dead right on the wraithlords though, i was like hot damn this guy has a great list, keep going, awesome.. Wraithlords.. times three.. noooppee..

Long story short wraith lords blow, the jet council works great!!! Know how to use it, know what you can and cannot do with it, and it will win you games all the damn time..

I know hes going to inform us of the nerfs to seer councils, first he will mention that we cannot cast as many spells, the only real spell we need to cast is fortune, protect is nice but not necessary, there are some nice spells that you dont always need to cast but some people believe they should be up ALL the time. Point is, with 2 farseers and 6 warlocks you will have enough dice to cast anything you need/want to cast. Especially with ssoa.

Secondly he will tell us that you cannot cast the same spell twice, this is true and can be a pain on the off chance you fail a fortune and happened to have a second chance at it, if that is a problem you could always split one farseer off and hide him behind if you were scared of that happening.

He mentioned 3 nerfs last time, forgot what his third point was, but again, it was negligible at best!

The point im trying to make is that the seer council is a damn strong unit and although it may have been ever so slightly hampered by the psychic phase, it also helps them immensely.. How often have you wanted to cast something AFTER moving, to get into LOS or range that you were dodging from on the previous turn.. !!

/end rant Dont feth with my seer council, they will destroy you!

Seer council isn't as OP as it was before, but it is still a strong build. I like your list and with some smart playing it will work. That's the hard part, smart playing.. Everyone is looking for an instant win button like ninjafiredragon very very people accept that learning to play well is the hardest, yet important part of this game which we take so serious.

Want good advice? Play what you want and think before you act, you will find winning more satisfying that way.

chadbrochill17 wrote:
jet council is just, yes. Amazing unit, ninja is against it in EVERY post hes ever made on this forum, he continually mentions it getting nerfed over and over again, id like to actually see the nerfs that hes talking about though.

Hes dead right on the wraithlords though, i was like hot damn this guy has a great list, keep going, awesome.. Wraithlords.. times three.. noooppee..

Long story short wraith lords blow, the jet council works great!!! Know how to use it, know what you can and cannot do with it, and it will win you games all the damn time..

I know hes going to inform us of the nerfs to seer councils, first he will mention that we cannot cast as many spells, the only real spell we need to cast is fortune, protect is nice but not necessary, there are some nice spells that you dont always need to cast but some people believe they should be up ALL the time. Point is, with 2 farseers and 6 warlocks you will have enough dice to cast anything you need/want to cast. Especially with ssoa.

Secondly he will tell us that you cannot cast the same spell twice, this is true and can be a pain on the off chance you fail a fortune and happened to have a second chance at it, if that is a problem you could always split one farseer off and hide him behind if you were scared of that happening.

He mentioned 3 nerfs last time, forgot what his third point was, but again, it was negligible at best!

The point im trying to make is that the seer council is a damn strong unit and although it may have been ever so slightly hampered by the psychic phase, it also helps them immensely.. How often have you wanted to cast something AFTER moving, to get into LOS or range that you were dodging from on the previous turn.. !!

/end rant Dont feth with my seer council, they will destroy you!

A) Are you recommending that seer council size? (thats what I was referring to about it being a "no", not the fact that it isnt competitive)

OK Let me explain why I disqualify seer council....

I know hes going to inform us of the nerfs to seer councils, first he will mention that we cannot cast as many spells, the only real spell we need to cast is fortune, protect is nice but not necessary, there are some nice spells that you dont always need to cast but some people believe they should be up ALL the time. Point is, with 2 farseers and 6 warlocks you will have enough dice to cast anything you need/want to cast. Especially with ssoa.

NERF A)
Your right. 2 farseers+6 warlocks=12 warp charge (+d6) averages 15.5 warp charge a turn. That gets pretty much a guaranteed fortune/invis, shrouding (need that 2+ cover) and 1-2 buffs. This is Good. Im not saying its bad. What Im saying is, that last edition you were able to cast all what, 13 powers? And not have to worry about it. Get fortune, Invisibilty, prescience, conceal, guide, doom, protect, and whatever other powers you rolled. This is what made the unit Over powered. Take that away, and it makes them great, but not over powered.

NERF B)
Secondly he will tell us that you cannot cast the same spell twice, this is true and can be a pain on the off chance you fail a fortune and happened to have a second chance at it, if that is a problem you could always split one farseer off and hide him behind if you were scared of that happening.
No power twice is another nerf that hurts. Before, you could cast guide/fortune on the 2-3 units helping council, now its the council and thats it. you could split off a farseer, but then the oppoenent can focus down one of your farseers for free. You cant argue thats not a big nerf.

NERF C)
He mentioned 3 nerfs last time, forgot what his third point was, but again, it was negligible at best!

If by negligible at best you mean one unit that can uterally destroy the seer council in a turn then yeah, its negligible
Culexus Assasin from the new data slate Assasins. 1(35?) Points and its a unit with infiltrate to get close. You have to snap fire at it, which means wasting precious shooting at it. It has 3 wounds and a 4+ invul, which means it will take more than you might want to shoot at it.
If it gets within 12 inches of your seer council (Best way is in space wolve drop pod) A few things happen....
-3 to your leadership.
-All Blessings you have go away on your unit. Just disapear.
-He gets to shoot 1 S5 AP1 shot for each mastery level within 12" (in your case, 12). These shots are at bs 7.
-If you are still within 12" of him on your turn, you dont generate warp charge, and only cast on a 6.

So if he gets within 12 you have 12 t4 wounds, with 3+ armor. Thats about as hard to kill as 10 tactical marines and a captain. And the Assasin kills half of them with its own shooting.


Put all this together and you have a unit that is good, but just no-where near as good as it was before. Spending those points on wraith knights and wave serpents are the way to go imo.

So theres that.

Im not going to base my entire army around a single model that may or may not get taken in 1 in 20 lists.

People's hate for wraithlords is unwarrented.
They compliment the wave serpents nicely by threatening heavy armor and deterring assaults for less than his big brother (wraith knight). I used a pair in a similar tourney at 1500 recently and I'd take them again.
Sure you have to play them intellegently to make sure they are in the right place at the right time, but if you do they'll round out your list nicely.
Don't forget they have a pair of flamers and you can issue challenges with them.

Well, Wraithlords are meh since their damage output is very low.
I'd consider 2 stock Wraithknights instead.

Agreed with 2 stock Wraithknights. You lose 2 shots but gain a potential instant death ability. The Wraithknights are more mobile making them a great counter assault element.

The Seer Council has some significant hurdles with the way you built it.

1. Only 1 Farseer. That is not sufficient to roll for Fortune or Invisibility, which this unit really requires one of the two. There have been many games where I didn't get Fortune after rolling for 2 Farseers.
2. No Shard of Anaris. You have a lot of points tied up into a unit that can be affected by Morale tests.
3. No Hit and Run. Jetseers don't do a lot of damage in assault. You've equipped everyone with Singing Spears so I will assume you plan to get somewhat close to enemy units. Getting this unit stuck in an assault is exactly where you don't want them to be. Just a simple Tactical Squad with Invisibility cast on them will hold this unit up for awhile.

The Wraithlords were great back in 3rd when I first encountered them. Back when a Carnifex was God With Claws and a Terminator unit was terrifying. The game has come a long way since then and Wraithlords haven't changed, just like the other antiquated units left in the game. It's not the worst thing ever, but it's not good when compared to the other more current options available.

chadbrochill17 wrote:
Im not going to base my entire army around a single model that may or may not get taken in 1 in 20 lists.

Its in a dataslate which means anyone can take it. And If you can have one model eliminate 2-3 of the most compeititve builds there are(were) then I expect to see allot of people taking him.

Thanks. The three wraithlords were an attempt to be a higher fire power, more damage output (yet slightly more frail) version of 2 wraithknights.. also they should attract fire, visit the centre of the board and provide melee counter... the seer council.. i like the idea of running around and using fortune.. i agree that i *need* fortune so i will play about and see how I can take 2

Even three Wraithlords have not enough fire power.
Sanigar is right about the Jetseer Council.
Two Jetseer (plain if you like) would be mandatory.

The wraithlords are not "good" damage output .. but they don't have to be... all they have to be is better than 2 wraithknights... and are one of the best melee units eldar have and are probably as surviveable (3) as 2 wraithknights simply by virtue of being shorter and instakill seperate targets (despite being 3 less wounds)I am not convinced they are a bad idea... yet... but is there more to the argument