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2014/09/02 17:13:12
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Crafty Clanrat
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Sorry bout that. I'm writing this on my downtime at work.
Grey Seer- discroll,4+ward
Chief-BSB, charmed shield, 5+ ward
chief-skavenbrew, halberd
3 chiefs- halberds
2 x 48 Stormvermin-full com. poison wind mortar
40 clanrats-full com, PWM
3 darts
8 gutter runners-slings, poison
abom
2 warpcannons
The non-BSB chiefs go 2 per stormvermin unit. They boost the stormvermin's combat and can redirect as needed. Darts would get used first for that purpose. The BSB and Seer go in the Clanrats. I think its a very functional list but im on the fence with magic. I don't think i'd mix lores. Both lores can be very useful in this list but if I were to pick1 as in say I had to because its a tourney list idk....plague is close range and the clanrat bunker isn't a good combat unit so my first thought is ruin. Any thoughts people?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/02 20:20:24
Ppl see 4d6 casualties and think its limburger dick |
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2014/09/02 18:07:41
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Space Cowboy Cruising Around Olympus Mons
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Might want to edit your list....a grey seer with a 4+ ward save and dispel scroll isn't 2400 point :p haha
I'd be glad to help when you edit the list tho
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2014/09/03 22:21:07
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Here are my two Warptokens:
- it's an interesting list to be sure. It's just a little too-dimensional for my liking.
- give the Chieftains (or the Seer) the Shadow Magnet Trinket, an Obsidian Lodestone, an Ironcurse Icon. Maybe the Ruby Ring of Ruin.
- take a Warlock with the Doomrocket.
- change one Mortar to a Warpfire Thrower to handle Regeneration and monstrous troops. Maybe change one to a Ratling Gun to handle skirmishers and the like.
- give one of the Stormvermin units a magic banner. Eternal Flame, Razor, maybe even Ranger.
With those changes in mind, you'd need to come up with 130-205pts. I'd drop the Stormvermin units down to 38 each, maybe drop a Gutter Runner or two.
This would just help you diversify the list a bit.
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2014/09/04 04:57:43
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Crafty Clanrat
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I was actually considering 2 warp tokens. Its something I find inevitable that a player should get a crappy magic phase once per game, though not always the case. Its magic phase insurance. Dimensional, yes, its more of a tourney level list. I got rocked at Buckeye but it was informative.
Shadow magnet-absolutely. armies with higher levels of shooting could shoot me down before getting to them. Another reason to take ruin magic and get warpgale. The extra would def initely help. Obsidian isn't bad but expensive. Ring is worthy of consideration.
-wanted to fit in the rocketeer but I wanted to keep the chieftains in. Stormvermin are ok in h2h. properly equipped they can do respectable in some tougher match ups. In lines with ruin magic there's death frenzy to enhance them and is why I took skavenbrew, more insurance. In the end though, I drop a dart and a runner and I have something more effective than either.
-a WFT is good idea if for diversity's sake.
-flame banner is a good idea if I have nothing else flaming. The movement banner came up in thinking also. Razors not bad but expensive.
If I were to finagle points I may just down grade a stormvemin unit clanrats w/ spears.
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Ppl see 4d6 casualties and think its limburger dick |
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2014/09/04 05:44:14
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Space Cowboy Cruising Around Olympus Mons
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Hmm no slaves very interesting lol you could drop one of the poisoned wind mortars and some of those clanrats for it.
You might want to consider bringing an assassin. I see what your trying to do with big killy blocks of stormvermin so an assassin might just be a good addition and take out a chieftain or 2.
I would go with a warp fire thrower over the poisoned wind mortar... Its more useful and devastating. Not that I don't like the pwm tho.
I would drop the clanrats unit to 30 since its a bunker you can use those points elsewhere. You should invest in slaves to protect it a bit just in case things get hairy.
I'd probably go 2 units of 40 stormvermin full command if you want (I rarely bring hero's) and a razor standard (that's my go to standard for stormvermin)
As for magic your right about plague being close range although I feel it is stronger and more worth taking. Drop the worst spell for the 13th obviously tho.
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2014/09/04 14:57:12
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Crafty Clanrat
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I didn't take slaves cause of all the redirect but Im not opposed to them.
I find myself liking the pwm more and more. It has longer range, it can move and fire, deals with armor. Id prob take wtf's if they could move and fire. I find myself being the aggressor most games and wft's don't fit that style as well as mortars do because of having to move.
Those clanrats would be a good place to finagle points from
Again, shaving a rank off the vermin is too much of a Ld liability.
I'm really on the fence with magic. I do agree with you on plague and its much better in some matchups but ruin is just to useful in this list.
Thanks guys ill be back with a rewrite
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Ppl see 4d6 casualties and think its limburger dick |
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2014/09/04 18:48:46
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Space Cowboy Cruising Around Olympus Mons
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Well slaves would be good because you can hold up a unit with it and then slam the flanks with your storm vermin.
I agree I do like the pwm but it is only a small blast so isn't always the best. Up to you tho and it all depends what armies your going to be facing.
Are.you planning on running the stormvermin in a horde? I usually run them 7 wide and 6 deep (minus 1 model) but since you plan on putting 2 heroes in each then you will have 6 ranks and if you keep them within your bsb and general it shouldn't be a problem.
I would go ruin in this list since the seer is in the bunker
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2014/09/04 23:16:49
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Don't take Warpstone Tokens unless you've already taken the Power Stone. 25pts for 2 dice, or 15pts for 1 die and a chance to wound yourself X2? No contest.
The Obsidian Lodestone is 45pts. Three Doombolts will cause an average of 17.5 wounds. Which means that MR will save you 8.75. Which costs more than 45pts.
Stormvermin are okay in combat. And nothing more. They lose hard to a lot of other elite units, though. T3 and heavy armour means they die even faster than Clanrats against WS5.
Skavenbrew, though, is not insurance. It's a 50pt gamble. It might do nothing. It might give you a bonus that doesn't stack with Deathfrenzy. It might give you a pretty decent boost, but kill a few models every turn of the game.
The Razor Banner really isn't that pricey for what it does. An extra 17% unsaved wounds means you'll kill more points worth of models than the banner costs in 2-3 combat phases against more heavily armoured troops.
Eternal Flame is solid. Just be wary of those stupid 2+ Ward vs Flaming characters.
The Ranger's Standard would give that one block some unexpected mobility.
The Stormbanner, though...probably the best choice, overall.
Clanrats with spears? No way. Keep the Stormvermin. Better a smaller unit of models that can actually fight.
For Magic, just wait to see who you're facing. 'Gale, Scorch and 'Frenzy are nice, but so is Wither, Bless, and Plague. Against a lot of shooting, I'd go mostly Ruin, and against a lot of melee, I'd probably start with Plague.
But if I rolled up the 2-3 spells I wanted from that Lore, I'd switch to the other.
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2014/09/05 03:32:15
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Crafty Clanrat
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ok first off here is the revised list.
seer-discroll, 4+ward, 2 tokens
BSB-charmed shield, 5+ ward
chief-skavenbrew, halberd
3 chiefs- halberd
48 stormvermin- full com, PWM, flame banner
48 stormvermin-full com, PWM
30 clanrats- full com
3 darts
7 runners-slings poison
abom
2 cannons
I put this list up against a good DE player tonight and broke his face. Ironically, youre statement about doombolts , proved incorrect. His sorceress, got pretty much what he wanted off of shadow. sig, enfeebling, withering, occams. I didn't see much doombolt from the warlocks. I ended up going with ruin. Magic phase was very functional. the tokens gave me a lot of opportunity to knock down his debuffs when I needed to. I managed to get off crucial spells at crucial times. I would agree with you on a power stone. but he already took the scroll. I did want the loadstone, I just wasn't willing to drop the storm vermin down and it payed off this game.
Stormvermin were the stars of the game. He had his general ina unit of corsairs and Ill admit there was some favorable dice but I beat him in combat and ran him down. The next turned they got death frenzied and almost hung with executioners. lol I did 17 wounds and he did 20 but couldn't have done it without DF. They broke. the execs pursued them into the seers bunker . I charged him the next turn with some clanrats I got from putting 13th on some shades.
Sorry, no more play by play. The list was very functional . I played the way I needed 2 and won. Is it going break a different army? idk yet.
As for banner choice. I don't disagree one bit but stormbanner is counter productive. I have such iffy shooting that getting to use them half the time takes me out of the shooting phase as well. Its too unpredictable. It would be useful since Im hardly ever going to get +1 for 1st turn. Razor standard is nice but I meant for points finagling, which I still may do.
again no disagreement on magic. ruin was a good choice for that battle. plague would be better in other battles.
Its a good list but needs to evolve and as that happens ill keep your suggestions in mind Thank you
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Ppl see 4d6 casualties and think its limburger dick |
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2014/09/05 21:08:23
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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Matt Ratsinburger wrote:Ironically, youre statement about doombolts , proved incorrect. His sorceress, got pretty much what he wanted off of shadow. sig, enfeebling, withering, occams. I didn't see much doombolt from the warlocks.
...nope. My statement would have been incorrect if my math was wrong. But I said "this will protect you from X". Responding with "that's not true, because I didn't see much of X. I saw more of Y and Z" doesn't counter my statement.
What I will grant you is that magic missiles and direct damage spells aren't very common, mostly because Hexes and Augments are so amazing.
Matt Ratsinburger wrote:Stormvermin were the stars of the game. He had his general ina unit of corsairs and Ill admit there was some favorable dice but I beat him in combat and ran him down. The next turned they got death frenzied and almost hung with executioners.
Well...to be honest, Corsairs aren't common in competitive Dark Elf lists for a reason. And Stormvermin are a pretty good matchup against those low T, low armour Elves in general. My concern would be Chaos Warriors and heavy cavalry.
Matt Ratsinburger wrote:As for banner choice. I don't disagree one bit but stormbanner is counter productive...Razor standard is nice but I meant for points finagling, which I still may do
With the Stormbanner, you can always decide to not use it. 50pts isn't nothing, but it's not a huge investment, either. I usually end up waiting a turn or two anyway. Gives me a chance to blast their monsters, let their fliers get close, and ensures that their close-range shooting is crap.
Glad to hear things went so well, though. Even a "soft" Dark Elf list is brutal, and this one didn't sound all that soft anyway. More than anything, I'm glad you've proven that a fighty Skaven list can work.
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0399/07/05 23:41:40
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Sinister Shapeshifter
The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.
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Can I just interject with the following: A good dark elf list won't see combat unless it wants to. And it won't have any elf infantry in it. Nor will it have cold one knights. All you're likely to see is a life magic warlock bus with 1+ characters, dark riders, and darkshards.
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2014/09/06 01:14:11
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Evasive Eshin Assassin
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...wow. So, first, what you're saying is, the only good Dark Elf list is...this one list, and nothing else? Is that what you're saying?
Second, I'm pretty sure that Darkshards are, in fact, infantry.
Third, no one cares. This is a thread about a Skaven army. If anything, you ought to be trying to sell the idea that there's only one good Skaven list.
I'm curious, though. If the "only one way to run this army" concept is true, and everyone started doing it, and then someone built an a-typical list to specifically counter your "good list"...would it still be good?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/06 01:14:52
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2014/10/03 00:26:15
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Crafty Clanrat
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Some thoughts after playing some more with his list and variations. I added razor and it was effective every game. I cant argue its value. I did see one thing happen in all the games. The bunker always had combat and sometimes resulted in a dead seer. Getting the power assassin in the list is about the only other thing I think I could have to make this list the best it can be. Losing a couple of chiefs and a mortar is no big deal. The mortars are great if they get a good roll but most of the time they just slightly pepper units and up end as redirectors. Which isn't bad, but in this list the mortars need to be more effective to allow for 3 of them. I had mixed results with buying xtra tokens. I didn't need them half the time for whatever reason.. Still, The opportunity it creates to rape someone in the magic phase or get rid of buffs/debuffs and still have a magic phase is great, though I admit not critical. I would bet that, in games in which I have a great magic phase and xtra tokens increase the probability of that happening, I am winning that game. Sorry, arguing in my head out loud. That's all I got.
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Ppl see 4d6 casualties and think its limburger dick |
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2014/10/03 09:15:52
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Sinister Shapeshifter
The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.
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Warpsolution wrote:
I'm curious, though. If the "only one way to run this army" concept is true, and everyone started doing it, and then someone built an a-typical list to specifically counter your "good list"...would it still be good?
It depends. Can it deal with all armies equally as well? Or are you handicapping yourself against other armies to deal with that one army?
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2014/10/03 13:45:16
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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Warpsolution wrote:...wow. So, first, what you're saying is, the only good Dark Elf list is...this one list, and nothing else? Is that what you're saying?
Second, I'm pretty sure that Darkshards are, in fact, infantry.
Third, no one cares. This is a thread about a Skaven army. If anything, you ought to be trying to sell the idea that there's only one good Skaven list.
I'm curious, though. If the "only one way to run this army" concept is true, and everyone started doing it, and then someone built an a-typical list to specifically counter your "good list"...would it still be good?
You can ignore him. He isn't that expert he thinks he is, and doesn't even play all that much. He said so himself. Look:
He has a very narrow field about what is "good".
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2014/10/03 16:45:31
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Sinister Shapeshifter
The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.
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I go by the lists I see in tournaments. Plus by the fact that the dark elf infantry list loses to fast cav lists, from any army, 100% of the time.
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2014/10/03 18:30:33
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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thedarkavenger wrote:I go by the lists I see in tournaments. Plus by the fact that the dark elf infantry list loses to fast cav lists, from any army, 100% of the time.
You need to face the goblin fast cav army, it destroys itself. And any elf infantry tear it apart.
-Matt
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2014/10/03 19:26:57
Subject: [2400] - skaven
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Sinister Shapeshifter
The Lair of Vengeance....Poole.
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HawaiiMatt wrote: thedarkavenger wrote:I go by the lists I see in tournaments. Plus by the fact that the dark elf infantry list loses to fast cav lists, from any army, 100% of the time.
You need to face the goblin fast cav army, it destroys itself. And any elf infantry tear it apart.
-Matt
Mono goblins don't make a valid army.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/03 19:28:09
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