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For a number of months my group of friends has been talking about wanting linked campaigns where your battlefleet gothic games could lead to an Epic scale invasion game and that in turn had an impact on a 40k game down the line. All tried and true, and par for the course. The obvious impediment? Well Gothic and Epic no longer exist for new players.



So we turned to other manufacturers and I got some interest in the group for Firestorm Armada which is a game I absolutely love, and I was able to leverage the coming of Planetfall, their 10mm ground combat system which is launching this month (a bit earlier than anticipated) as a way to get some interest going. I’ve been a fan of Firestorm for a while, I like Spartan’s rules so I’m reasonably confident Planetfall will be a great ruleset. I ran a few demo games of Firestorm in the gaming store, a couple of small fleet actions and that was enough to get people to start planning out fleets. They liked the game mechanics and so were looking forward to Planetfall.



All seemed well and people were even more interested when they found out Spartan planned to release some 28mm ground troops next year. That’s the dream, the trifecta, the three game types would be there in one universe! Hallelujah!



Then… Our resident Alpha Gamer, decided he liked the look of Dropzone Commander and within a week, my months of laying the groundwork for 10mm planetfall, and my beloved Firestorm Armada came to a screeching halt. I had made things so easy for our Alpha Gamer to swoop in and extol the virtues of DZC. People were already interested in 10mm and this was available now, not in a few months, NOW!



Being the Alpha Gamer he had a starter set the next week after whipping up some interest and was running demo games. That was it, I knew I had lost. Planetfall was still three months away at this stage and he had half of those who had expressed an interest already planning DZC armies. I tried to hold out, Me and one other guy were 100% behind Planetfall and Firestorm, but then a few days ago I was told in no uncertain terms that DZC had won the war and it would be just the two of us playing it, everyone else was jumping on the DZC bandwagon. But “don’t worry” I was told, Hawk Wargames have Andy Chambers working on a space combat game to go alongside it. So that should suit me… Nevermind that this space game had a completely undisclosed release date when Planetfall would be out in October this year and we could have two of the three desired system types… Everyone in the group liked the aesthetics for Firestorm and Planetfall. I hate the aesthetics of DZC, can’t stand anything except the PHR and I have no reason to think the aesthetics of their space game will be any better and while the agreement is that Spartan have nicer models, DZC was getting the groups dollars!



It’s my own fault; our Alpha Gamer had no interest in 10mm until I sold him on Planetfall. My plan was so simple, get the Alpha Gamer interested and the group will follow. And boy, was I right! They just followed him to the wrong damn game.



I have no interest in DZC, but I’m questioning whether my lack of interest is really just because I prefer Planetfalls aesthetic (which I do) or if I am just bitter about not getting my way… I won’t lie and say I wasn’t pissed off about it, but I can’t force people to play the game I want nor would I want to play someone who was there because he was forced into it.



So from a potential group of 8 interested players, there are now two of us with Firestorm Armada and plans to get Planetfall and we were talking recently about whether we should just join them in DZC. Is it better to play a game we aren’t really bothered with to play with our friends or should we play the game we want to. For me it’s easy, I can afford both systems, I could do both if I wanted to, but the other guy isn’t in the same position, it’s one or the other for him. Is it fair to tie him to planetfall when his only opponent will be me… Should I just accept we are beaten and play the game I don’t want to so that he at least has others to play against?



That’s my question, and I think the answer is pretty clear. I should bow out and let my stalwart ally go to this new crappy ass game (sorry, that’s the bitterness talking… )



But to be honest, I think that’s just going to be it for me. I don’t like DZC so I won’t play it. I stopped playing 40k and that is the other major system in the store. I don’t see the point in playing something I don’t like, I did that for the last three years with 40k.



I think this is it for me and miniature wargaming… man, that’s a scary thought, I’ve been doing this for 18 years and I still love it. The wargaming scene here just isn’t that big and the games I like seem to be the wrong games so what’s a guy to do?

What's an alpha gamer?

 Smacks wrote:
What's an alpha gamer?

An alpha gamer is that guy who everyone loves to play. The guy who knows every rule flat and whatever e's playing is the thing people want to play.

The big dog, leader of the pack lol!

My only advice would be not to let your interests and passions be dictated by other people; the same is true in all aspects of your life, not just wargaming. You can't make someone like or want to play a game they don't want to and vice versa so instead of trying to impose what you want to play on others or having other games imposed on you in turn, find opponents and friends who share a mutual interest or who at least are open minded enough to want to try new stuff occasionally. There are plenty of resources both here on Dakka and the wider web to find opponents and nearby friends. If you can't find opponents for the game you want to play or find people who want to start playing it then maybe consider playing a different game that interests you that you can find opponents for.

Or.......

Go out and get a few fifths of Jack. Have him drink them and then take pictures of him with all your Firestorm models.... Then just be all "Dude, don't you remember? you were all about this game, here see the pics!"

As for serious advice, go with what Filbert said.

Doesn't DZC still do what you want? There's no reason you can't use Firestorm for the ship stuff and DZC for the ground stuff?

If you like Planetfall, then go for it, but if the group has decided they want DZC instead then work with them rather than against them.

Too much of one thing can still be an issue. Nothing is preventing you from continuing to play FSA as your space game.

It also might be that people were just interested more in the different aesthetics of DZC compared to the FSA stuff. Your group might have been looking for a ground game right now, as opposed to upcoming, and Spartan Games does have a bad reputation in some areas. The FSA/Spartan rules are also pretty different from what former 40k gamers are used to.

We also know Hawk Wargames is coming out with a space game from the designer of Battlefleet Gothic.

As above, on one hand you shouldn't let people dictate all of your buying habits.

On the other hand, you need to let go of the negative feelings if you ever hope to want to get others into the games you play. Calling something crappy, disparaging this alpha gamer and group, etc. It's not conducive or productive for yourself or the community you want to establish. That negativity will alter how you act around people that play, and walking around with disdain for a game is a surefire way to get people to not want to play with you at all, let alone try the game you want them to play.

You talk about this "alpha gamer" but the reality is that it's all just gamers, groups, and interests. People seldom drop hundreds of dollars on new games based off one opinion. Instead, it's just likely people were interested in FSA and Planetfall since it seemed like the only other thing out there.

Instead, have two small demo armies on hand, fully painted, learn all the rules and invite people to play with you handling all the rules stuff for them. The key is to become the demo guy that can prove to them through actual play that the games you like are the better one.

Otherwise, you might also want to give DZC a fair try, if you still don't like it, you can always use Planetfall stuff as a counts as army.

 filbert wrote:
so instead of trying to impose what you want to play on others

That's a bit strong, isn't it? The game you say he's trying to 'impose', as Darefsky says, they were all over not so long ago.

find opponents and friends who share a mutual interest or who at least are open minded enough to want to try new stuff occasionally. There are plenty of resources both here on Dakka and the wider web to find opponents and nearby friends. If you can't find opponents for the game you want to play or find people who want to start playing it then maybe consider playing a different game that interests you that you can find opponents for.

This sounds so impractical to the point of looking like you never read the OP, with an extra helping of insult besides.

I drifted away from a game I didn't care to play. The result was that I also drifted away from the game club where the resident alpha gamer pushed it, and pushed it hard, and I haven't been there in months. And there's bog-all else nearby, or playing games I do like. It's not a heap of fun. I've been having similar thoughts about giving up the hobby because of it.

My advice, I dunno if it's much more practical, but it's advice I've been thinking about taking myself. Impose yourself. Take a leaf out of the AG's book and be assertive about what games you like and what you think the group will like. They already did like your suggestions, from the sounds of things! If they're so easily swayed to go for the immediate gratification, and if FA and PF are proper quality, I'd say - barring whatever DZC forces they've already built up - it won't be supremely difficult to blow their hobby butterfly back again. If you can afford both PF and DZC, get two PF forces. Lay on demo games. Looks like you've also got someone who's likely to be a willing opponent for onlookers, too.
I admit I don't know how easy or successful it'll be. I don't think it's impossible, though. And the novelty of DZC has to wear off some time...

 Vermis wrote:


This sounds so impractical to the point of looking like you never read the OP, with an extra helping of insult besides.

Impractical how? There is both a sub-forum and a Player Finder section here on Dakka alone that enables you to filter both by games played and by locality. I'm sure there are similar functions on other sites, groups on Facebook etc etc. If you want to play a particular game and your group doesn't want to for whatever reason, there is plenty of scope to find people who do want to play what you want. And if after all that, you still can't find someone willing to try or play the specific game you want, then the next best thing is to find another game that you do want to play and that others do as well. Not sure how you interpret that as impractical.

Farplane wrote:
Is it better to play a game we aren’t really bothered with to play with our friends or should we play the game we want to.

None is really better.

Farplane wrote:
Is it fair to tie him to planetfall when his only opponent will be me…

Nope.

Farplane wrote:
For me it’s easy, I can afford both systems, I could do both if I wanted to, but the other guy isn’t in the same position, it’s one or the other for him.

When I play chess, I usually bring black and white pieces. When I play historicals, I usually have 3 or 4 forces for each period/theater, so people who never played the game or don't have minis for the relevant period/theater can join and enjoy the game.

I've seen groups behave in a similar manner over here. It's not so much an "alpha" effect as it is the group looking at options from multiple gamers and deciding although I will admit there are people that can sway others on a decision point but usually it's not "look what I'm doing" and the sheep follow. I've noticed a decision for a particular system is usually timing or aesthetics or both or more variables are involved. Anyway, what I'm saying is in my experience it's hard to lead a group to a particular game let alone a campaign of multiple game systems.

"I hate the aesthetics of DZC"

I feel the opposite. Had someone shown me the new Planetfall miniatures BEFORE I closely or had ever looked at DZC I would have been interested but not excited over Planetfall. In fact way back when Spartan first showed the game models (the original designs) I liked them but not overy so. Like you I also thought about how it would be fun to tie in multiple game systems to a campaign. Since Plantfall seemed it wasn't going to be released any time soon if at all, I started looking around and found DZC. I liked those miniatures better, showed it to others who also seem to like DZC miniatures better if for no other reason than it's available NOW. Note that I can't get anyone interested in playing Firestorm Armada, or specifically getting someone else to buy miniatures for it. They'll happily play with mine though and I'm good with that for now. It's a possible scenario that the other gamers aren't sheep they simply like the miniatures and game play of DZC which they can play right now.

Note that I way back I saw the old Plantetfall miniatures and those looked OK and I would have bought into it. Then I saw DZC miniatures which didn't over excite me but I do like many of the models and enjoy the game play. Recently I saw the new Plantefall miniatures and honestly have zero interest in that game. The miniatures aesthetics just don't appeal to me. This is coming from someone that has multiple Firestorm Armada fleets!

I play soooo many different games if a group moves off into a genre/scale game system I don't like I now simply concentrate on another genre/scale game system the group or another group is playing. While buying and building up what I 'really' want knowing it'll happen in the future. But I respect that others don't have that option available to them.

What to do?

I'm assuming you're group is not "tournament' focused. I don't mean a split type of group I mean if the group plays tournaments regularly and their "non tournament" games are almost always practicing for a tournament. If they are then ignore what I'm about to recommend. Unless Spartan Games and their Planetfall and Firestorm Armada are now tournament friendly with the company actively supporting that.

If I were in your situation as described I'd proceed as planned. I'd advertise/communicate "positively" about the game(s) I want to play and never mention anything negative about other similar game systems, unless asked for an opinion of course. In other words because I can't stress this enough, I wouldn't go looking for a reason to show or verbalize any negativity of another related system at all. I'd have at least two full forces with at least one available to lend out temporarily. That's if I were truly inspired by the games and systems for the campaign. Then I would schedule time to play preferably while the group is around even if playing another game. Especially if they are playing another game. Gamers like gaming and I've seen many times when someone shows up with something "different" than the other games being pulled out the interest is peaked. That's an opening to show and discuss what you're doing. Dare I use this but highlight how you're...gulp..."forging a narrative" with the campaign and also the game play aspects.

One effective way I've moved people from one system to another is to play the "popular" game system. Without any negative comments about it. Be positive, learn and have fun. If you can't do that or don't like the miniatures at all then don't do it. Just back off and wait. Gamers are notorious for jumping systems as much as some never play anything but a single game. One day you may hear "I hate playing in cities all the time*" and then you may have an opening to mention Planetfall. Even better if you hear that while you and your friend are playing Plantefall, look up to quickly invite them to play.

I've seen this a lot, usually in regards to 40k i.e. everyone plays 40k and don't want to bother with any other game, so you end up having a place where they barely stock anything else because people just don't care. I have a store like this, they barely stock anything not 40k (barring CCGs and the like of course) because nobody wants to play FoW, or Infinity or Malifaux. They *stopped* carrying Warmachine for the same reason. It's almost mind boggling. Mention a game not 40k and you'll basically get "meh, not really interested. 40k for me" kind of replies, even from new people that have never played 40k before - they come in and actually want to start playing 40k as opposed to alternatives.

Sadly I don't have an answer for the OP as people seem really vehement about what they play, and often refuse to even try something else because it's different. Best thing I can say is to have two armies and try to get some demos in to show people. If it's not insanely expensive it might persuade them.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I've seen this a lot, usually in regards to 40k i.e. everyone plays 40k and don't want to bother with any other game, so you end up having a place where they barely stock anything else because people just don't care. I have a store like this, they barely stock anything not 40k (barring CCGs and the like of course) because nobody wants to play FoW, or Infinity or Malifaux. They *stopped* carrying Warmachine for the same reason. It's almost mind boggling. Mention a game not 40k and you'll basically get "meh, not really interested. 40k for me" kind of replies, even from new people that have never played 40k before - they come in and actually want to start playing 40k as opposed to alternatives.

Sadly I don't have an answer for the OP as people seem really vehement about what they play, and often refuse to even try something else because it's different. Best thing I can say is to have two armies and try to get some demos in to show people. If it's not insanely expensive it might persuade them.

It is a process, and the OP nailed it regarding "Alpha Gamers." It is a funny term but really nails it.

When I came to my store everyone played 40k. I didn't want to play 40k because in my heart I knew Warmachine was a better "competitive" game. I say competitive because I like reasonably balanced games where player skill wins out... as opposed to the more narrative 40k games which ARE fun, but simply a different focus. I came in hot, demoed W/H, got people interested, and now people are selling 40k armies to get more W/H. The product is flying off the shelves!!!

Then I learned about what has happened in other small metas. W/H (or Malifaux, Infinity, etc) would show up, spark a firestorm... then the catalyst player (or "alpha") would leave. The small meta would then revert to its old 40k ways, likely because there was no driving force for the alternate game and 40k is big enough that you can always find players for that.

The lesson? If you want to build a community, YOU have to be that "alpha" player. YOU have to be excited about your game and sell it to other players. If you want the game to grow on a larger scale, then have back-up "alphas" to fill in with your excitement when you leave. DIE-HARD players of 40k and fantasy are switching to W/H in my area, not because I drugged them (though that may have sped up the process), but because I got them to play the game and used POSITIVE comparisons. DON'T EVER BASH GW! People get defensive when you attack the game that they invested thousands of dollars in. Instead, get them to play your game with your models. Get them to see why it is better on their own. Yes, it is very much like a drug dealer giving free samples, if your game is good it will sell itself.

Yes, my wife calls me a drug dealer. As a PG, I can also proudly say that I have paid for my investment several times over in a few months of peddling my favorite game. Why? Because I don't bash other systems and I let people see for themselves why they should play my favorite game. The irony is that now I don't get to play as much because I run events for everyone else... but it is worth it.

If you love your game and you are convinced it is best, then go in, guns blazing. If it is just pride because you are angry, I *get* that. Take a breath, chill out, and evaluate whether campaigning for your chosen game is more important than simply joining your current meta in the direction it is headed now. Only you can answer that, of course. Good luck!

 Moktor wrote:

The lesson? If you want to build a community, YOU have to be that "alpha" player. YOU have to be excited about your game and sell it to other players. If you want the game to grow on a larger scale, then have back-up "alphas" to fill in with your excitement when you leave. DIE-HARD players of 40k and fantasy are switching to W/H in my area, not because I drugged them (though that may have sped up the process), but because I got them to play the game and used POSITIVE comparisons. DON'T EVER BASH GW! People get defensive when you attack the game that they invested thousands of dollars in. Instead, get them to play your game with your models. Get them to see why it is better on their own. Yes, it is very much like a drug dealer giving free samples, if your game is good it will sell itself.

Moktor speaks the truth. Negativity draws a crowd for a short time, but honesty and passion for something grabs and holds people's attention. If you have the means, build and paint opposing forces. Build terrain and demo tables. Pack it into your car (or drag it in a little wagon behind you) and demo it for anyone who even glances in your direction. If you can't convince the existing community, build a new one. Don't do it out of spite, do it because you have a vision and love the game.

BUT... That's a lot of work with no guarantee of success. You may find that where you live just won't support more gamers, or maybe the store or club doesn't want you running demos. In the end, it might be worth it to swallow your pride and simply enjoy the social aspect of hanging with like-minded people.

Just play the game you want to play, and have a blast doing it. Even if you are only playing with one other guy or on your own.

Have you considered buying planetfall minis when they come out and using them as one of the DZC forces? It's not like there's a tournament scene for either of these games that would make proxy models a limiting factor. Unfortunately it sounds like the group has already moved to DZC and it may be time to just go along with the flow. You did lay some groundwork, but no group is immune to shiny-model syndrome.

I'm one of the alpha gamers in my group (I don't have the gaming knowledge, but I am the "organizer") and currently in a gaming group that plays lots of different indie games. There are games I've made strong cases for and tried to promote, but I've also set many possible games aside because of lack of interest. It stinks, but that's kind of the way it is. Of course we mix brands of minis all the time on the tabletop, so that does make it easier to accommodate others.

As others have said, don't be negative, you'll just damage friendships and have less gaming.

Some great responses – thanks guys.

filbert wrote:My only advice would be not to let your interests and passions be dictated by other people; the same is true in all aspects of your life, not just wargaming. You can't make someone like or want to play a game they don't want to and vice versa so instead of trying to impose what you want to play on others or having other games imposed on you in turn, find opponents and friends who share a mutual interest or who at least are open minded enough to want to try new stuff occasionally. There are plenty of resources both here on Dakka and the wider web to find opponents and nearby friends. If you can't find opponents for the game you want to play or find people who want to start playing it then maybe consider playing a different game that interests you that you can find opponents for.

Unfortunately I don’t live in the states or UK. The wargaing scene here is pretty small and outside of the GW/PP the smaller companies games are hard to find players for and there aren’t exactly a ton of 10mm sci-fi games or space combat games out there.

I haven’t tried to impose my game on anyone. I made a pitch, people were looking forward to the release…Then I got outpitched.

Herzlos wrote:Doesn't DZC still do what you want? There's no reason you can't use Firestorm for the ship stuff and DZC for the ground stuff?

If you like Planetfall, then go for it, but if the group has decided they want DZC instead then work with them rather than against them.

In an ideal world I would say this is true. I’ve played a couple of demo games with the Alpha Gamer and I’m just not a fan of the game, though admittedly I was rather reluctant in playing those demos. But I’m not the negative blast the other game type. I prefer to focus on the merits of any game I want to play or want others to play rather than slate the alternatives.

The rest of the group has put their Firestorm plans on hold pending the release of this future Andy Chambers Dropfleet game.

We are a group of gamers who like story tie -ns and if there is the chance of an official model over a stand in, we tend to go for the actual models. There is a grand total of one person who uses proxy models where official models exist, that’s just how the group is.

Vertrucio wrote:Too much of one thing can still be an issue. Nothing is preventing you from continuing to play FSA as your space game.

It also might be that people were just interested more in the different aesthetics of DZC compared to the FSA stuff. Your group might have been looking for a ground game right now, as opposed to upcoming, and Spartan Games does have a bad reputation in some areas. The FSA/Spartan rules are also pretty different from what former 40k gamers are used to.

We also know Hawk Wargames is coming out with a space game from the designer of Battlefleet Gothic.

As above, on one hand you shouldn't let people dictate all of your buying habits.

On the other hand, you need to let go of the negative feelings if you ever hope to want to get others into the games you play. Calling something crappy, disparaging this alpha gamer and group, etc. It's not conducive or productive for yourself or the community you want to establish. That negativity will alter how you act around people that play, and walking around with disdain for a game is a surefire way to get people to not want to play with you at all, let alone try the game you want them to play.

You talk about this "alpha gamer" but the reality is that it's all just gamers, groups, and interests. People seldom drop hundreds of dollars on new games based off one opinion. Instead, it's just likely people were interested in FSA and Planetfall since it seemed like the only other thing out there.

Instead, have two small demo armies on hand, fully painted, learn all the rules and invite people to play with you handling all the rules stuff for them. The key is to become the demo guy that can prove to them through actual play that the games you like are the better one.

I was trying to be a bit tongue in cheek regarding the “crappy” comment to be honest. I said in my OP that I can’t and wouldn’t force anyone to play a game they weren’t interested it. It just bugged me that they were interested in one thing for a couple of months before this other thing was dangled in front of them. I certainly don’t have a disdain for the game, it’s just not my preference.

Don’t get the wrong idea, I’m not having a go at the Alpha gamer. He’s the Alpha for a reason, great guy, really passionate. He has a lot of influence over people and his passion for something is infectious. I hear what you are saying that people don’t go off one opinion, and it totally wasn’t the case that Alpha just said, “lets do DZC” and everyone said “yeah, screw that FSA/Planetfall thing”. It wasn’t like that at all. He just has the charisma and enthusiasm to get people excited. You know the kind of guy who just knows how to pitch something to get others excited about it? He pitched the game, and the background, saw there was some interest and got the starter set, then started demoing the rules. He pushed and pushed hard and it worked for him… nearly worked for me except he got distracted by DZC .

Vertrucio wrote:
Otherwise, you might also want to give DZC a fair try, if you still don't like it, you can always use Planetfall stuff as a counts as army.

I can’t play with models I don’t like is the problem and really from the stuff I’ve seen of planetfall, I don’t think there is much crossover for DZC because it’s heavily focused on the dropships. There may be an argument that I need to give DZC rules another shot.

PHR are the only faction that even remotely interests me aesthetically and there are already two other players going for them… I always hated being the space marines of a game – ie the army that everyone has.

Vermis wrote:

 filbert wrote:
so instead of trying to impose what you want to play on others

That's a bit strong, isn't it? The game you say he's trying to 'impose', as Darefsky says, they were all over not so long ago.

Quite true, they were all over it and eagerly anticipating the release, each preview got them hyped up. It certainly wasn’t the case that I was forcing my will on others. Still haven’t as it happens. because 1. I’m not a dick and 2. People like what they like, it’s frustrating that it’s not what I like but that’s just how it is and 3. Even if I was inclined to try and force them into playing my game, or even had the ability to do such a thing, I’d have no interest in playing with someone who was brow beaten to being there

Vermis wrote:

find opponents and friends who share a mutual interest or who at least are open minded enough to want to try new stuff occasionally. There are plenty of resources both here on Dakka and the wider web to find opponents and nearby friends. If you can't find opponents for the game you want to play or find people who want to start playing it then maybe consider playing a different game that interests you that you can find opponents for.

This sounds so impractical to the point of looking like you never read the OP, with an extra helping of insult besides.

I drifted away from a game I didn't care to play. The result was that I also drifted away from the game club where the resident alpha gamer pushed it, and pushed it hard, and I haven't been there in months. And there's bog-all else nearby, or playing games I do like. It's not a heap of fun. I've been having similar thoughts about giving up the hobby because of it.



My advice, I dunno if it's much more practical, but it's advice I've been thinking about taking myself. Impose yourself. Take a leaf out of the AG's book and be assertive about what games you like and what you think the group will like. They already did like your suggestions, from the sounds of things! If they're so easily swayed to go for the immediate gratification, and if FA and PF are proper quality, I'd say - barring whatever DZC forces they've already built up - it won't be supremely difficult to blow their hobby butterfly back again. If you can afford both PF and DZC, get two PF forces. Lay on demo games. Looks like you've also got someone who's likely to be a willing opponent for onlookers, too.
I admit I don't know how easy or successful it'll be. I don't think it's impossible, though. And the novelty of DZC has to wear off some time...

To be fair that’s not completely impractical advice. It might simply be a case of biding my time until they have played DZC for a while and are open to more than one game at the same scale. At the moment the attitude is that we only need one 10mm game, but absolutely no reason they can’t eventually be convinced there is room for both games… possibly…maybe... Certainly beats giving up gaming…

lord_blackfang wrote:Looks like your gaming group dodged a bullet there, OP.

...ok…

Eilif wrote:Have you considered buying planetfall minis when they come out and using them as one of the DZC forces? It's not like there's a tournament scene for either of these games that would make proxy models a limiting factor. Unfortunately it sounds like the group has already moved to DZC and it may be time to just go along with the flow. You did lay some groundwork, but no group is immune to shiny-model syndrome.

I'm one of the alpha gamers in my group (I don't have the gaming knowledge, but I am the "organizer") and currently in a gaming group that plays lots of different indie games. There are games I've made strong cases for and tried to promote, but I've also set many possible games aside because of lack of interest. It stinks, but that's kind of the way it is. Of course we mix brands of minis all the time on the tabletop, so that does make it easier to accommodate others.

As others have said, don't be negative, you'll just damage friendships and have less gaming.

It is something to consider, but I haven’t seen anything that could take the place of the dropships… I will have to wait and see when the full range comes out.

Farplane wrote:

Eilif wrote:Have you considered buying planetfall minis when they come out and using them as one of the DZC forces? It's not like there's a tournament scene for either of these games that would make proxy models a limiting factor. Unfortunately it sounds like the group has already moved to DZC and it may be time to just go along with the flow. You did lay some groundwork, but no group is immune to shiny-model syndrome.

It is something to consider, but I haven’t seen anything that could take the place of the dropships… I will have to wait and see when the full range comes out.

Time to think "outside the range" my friend. Don't limit yourself to what one company is making. There's alot of folks making alot of good stuff that isn't directly connected to a game.

While 10mm is a bit limited, you'll find alot of dropships and similar vehicles in 6mm and 15mm ranges that are quite well suited 10mm gaming. A few brands to get you started that have dropshops, VTOL's and landers, mostly a considerably less than equivalent DZC prices. These are mostly 15mm compaines, but a search for 6mm dropship will find alot as well.

Khurasan
GZG
Rebel Minis
Clear Horizon Miniatures
Reavenstar miniatures

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

I think the OP shows that there was too much talk and when it came time for action, someone more action oriented was able to swoop in and actually move things forward. The OP may have sold the guy on the idea, but then he actually made it happen.

I don't even bother with the talk anymore. I don't have conversations where I say "what if we had a game like this" and try to build interest. Instead, I build and paint two forces and the terrain and invite a gaming buddy over for dinner and a game. Then at the small local cons and club nights not dedicated to a specific game, I bring the stuff there as well.

I want someone to build their own army if, and only if, they are genuinely interested after trying it. I don't ever want to be in the situation where my gaming depends on other people adopting the same game/scale/rules/miniatures as me before we can get started. The miniatures and the rules should stand on their own merits and not require me bolstering them by selling people the idea. I let the games I run speak for themselves.

Farplane wrote:


But to be honest, I think that’s just going to be it for me. I don’t like DZC so I won’t play it. I stopped playing 40k and that is the other major system in the store. I don’t see the point in playing something I don’t like, I did that for the last three years with 40k.

The funny thing is your "Alpha" gamer (which i'm reading this as someone has a man crush on him or something) could have been here posting exactly the same thing when you were convincing people to play firestorm aramda. People play what they think is fun. They enjoy DZC more. Sorry.

I like WHFB considerably more than 40k. In my area nobody plays WHFB everyone does 40k. I've tried to get people to play fantasy and they do not want to learn a new game. So i now play 40k because I still enjoy the game. Every now and then I drive for an hour an half to another city and get a game of fantasy in. Nobody wants to play my game either, i have no right to force people to play a game they don't want to.

 frozenwastes wrote:

I want someone to build their own army if, and only if, they are genuinely interested after trying it. I don't ever want to be in the situation where my gaming depends on other people adopting the same game/scale/rules/miniatures as me before we can get started. The miniatures and the rules should stand on their own merits and not require me bolstering them by selling people the idea. I let the games I run speak for themselves.

The OP's situation is a bit different since the game he wants to play isn't out yet. However, I think your approach to introducing new players to the game is a good one. Being able to give folks the chance to try the game before commiting is a great way to go. Also, the Miniatures and Rules standing on their own merits. For us at the club, it sometimes works similarly but with a twist.

More often, the club will decide we want to play a certain kind of gaming, say Post Apoc for example. Folks will use what post apoc minis they already have and we'll either debate the merits of rulesets we've played in the past or try new ones to see if it's going to be to our liking. Generally it's after we've settled on a ruleset that folks are more likely to buy a force or expand the force that they have of that genre.

Of course we have the beneift of a flexible club and mostly generic rulesets, so while we do often paint up new armies for new games, most of the club members already have miniatures for 28mm sci-fi and Fantasy in Skirmish and Platoon sized games, post apoc skirmish games, spaceship games and even small scale (10mm in our case) large battle sci-fi games. Not that it stops us from buying and painting more minis, but auditioning a ruleset is comparatively easy task for the club, requiring only one person to buy the game and the rest to show up with some minis from their collection.

I think the OP should give DZC a try for the rules. If the rules are even somewhat agreeable, then pick a faction who's playstyle you like best or who's army lists best fit the planetstorm miniatures faction you like best. Then just run the minis you like with that DZC list and have a good time. If the DZC rules don't quite float your boat, maybe your friends will be willing to play planetstorm with their minis. Then everybody wins.

Farplane wrote:

Unfortunately I don’t live in the states or UK. The wargaing scene here is pretty small and outside of the GW/PP the smaller companies games are hard to find players for and there aren’t exactly a ton of 10mm sci-fi games or space combat games out there.

Where do you play? That looks like an Irish flag, or am I mistaken?

If it is, (whispers), I might know some people.

For a long time I would just put my "game" in the closest and wait. That worked a few times - waiting for the current "in" thing to run its course . Someone wanting to try something else.

I'd say start talking the hype of the game, especially now that Planetfall is about to drop. Show the prerelease stuff and wait for it to come out. Don't give up hope!

OP ha! been there!
Our group always gets distracted "by something shiny".
Wait a bit, borrow stuff to play, play along and enjoy.
Even buy a bit of stuff.
When the interest starts trailing off, pull out your "finished" firestorm stuff all fully realized.
I find it all comes full circle eventually.
Just don't get rid of anything...

Full Thrust, Starmada, Batteltech, Epic, 40k, Black Powder, Battletech: Alpha Strike, X-wing, Watch your 6, Federation Commander, Starfleet... It just goes on and on with them. It is never boring though!

What to do when nobody plays the game you like anymore? Well instead of becoming a gamer, you become a collector then. This is what happened to me 30 years ago with Battletech. We played a lot, but then it just dried up, nobody want to play anymore. Wasn't cool back then.

So I became a collector of a few Fasa games. I stuck with Battletech for about 5 years, then gave up on it, once I did not like the direction of the artwork they went with. I got rid of all my stuff. Lesson number one learnt. NEVER, EVER give up ANYTHING or at least EVERYTHING. I regret it and wished I kept it.

Other option is to adapt. You want to keep playing? Then you need to see what others are playing. For me years later I got the "Itch" to play again. So I got into 40K. Didn't get into it at first but this time I just shelved them. I am glad I did because years later I got back into it.

Now, I have the itch again to play but nobody plays anymore. I wanted to be collector again, but with GW prices, I see there is else where. So my GW money went to other companies now.

Now I am making my own company. I have the itch for something to do with gaming with minis. Will it take off? Who knows what can happen. Thing is, use your energy for what ever you want to do.

Look for new gamers. Can't find games? Become a collector. Don't want to collect? Take time away and just shelf everything but don't get rid of anything.

As a side note, I saw Armada was doing ground combat, got interested, and once I saw the minis, I was so turned off my focus will be on Dropzone Commander. I don't see anything good in Armada ground combat version. That could be one reason why people are turned of on Armada. The minis are not that nice looking, especially when compared to Dropzone Commander.

Played 2 games of DzC and it's really fun. I can't see how much fun Armada is going to be, so I would' give up on DzC.

Any reason why you don't like DzC? Going back to reread the long post you made last to see if the reason is there.

frozenwastes wrote:I think the OP shows that there was too much talk and when it came time for action, someone more action oriented was able to swoop in and actually move things forward. The OP may have sold the guy on the idea, but then he actually made it happen.

I don't even bother with the talk anymore. I don't have conversations where I say "what if we had a game like this" and try to build interest. Instead, I build and paint two forces and the terrain and invite a gaming buddy over for dinner and a game. Then at the small local cons and club nights not dedicated to a specific game, I bring the stuff there as well.

I want someone to build their own army if, and only if, they are genuinely interested after trying it. I don't ever want to be in the situation where my gaming depends on other people adopting the same game/scale/rules/miniatures as me before we can get started. The miniatures and the rules should stand on their own merits and not require me bolstering them by selling people the idea. I let the games I run speak for themselves.

That would generally be my approach but to be fair, the game didn’t exist as anything other than previews, I physically couldn’t have swooped into action…

NickF509 wrote:

The funny thing is your "Alpha" gamer (which i'm reading this as someone has a man crush on him or something) could have been here posting exactly the same thing when you were convincing people to play firestorm aramda. People play what they think is fun. They enjoy DZC more. Sorry.

In this case it’s more like people play what they think is fun and what is out to be played.

If the products existed to be bought at the time we were talking I might be in a happier position now, but as PF isn’t out yet, that wasn’t the case. I’m not saying they don’t find it fun because obviously they do, people don’t play games they don’t like… for the most part. Essentially they haven’t picked DZC because it’s more fun, they couldn’t have because they don’t know how PF plays. Hey, it could turn out PF sucks and they would have moved on to look for something else anyway, I don’t know.

NickF509 wrote:

I like WHFB considerably more than 40k. In my area nobody plays WHFB everyone does 40k. I've tried to get people to play fantasy and they do not want to learn a new game. So i now play 40k because I still enjoy the game. Every now and then I drive for an hour an half to another city and get a game of fantasy in. Nobody wants to play my game either, i have no right to force people to play a game they don't want to.

Agreed completely, my OP actually touches on this, it isn’t up to me to force people to play my game and that isn’t what my post was about, it was more about what should *I* do?...

Eilif wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

I want someone to build their own army if, and only if, they are genuinely interested after trying it. I don't ever want to be in the situation where my gaming depends on other people adopting the same game/scale/rules/miniatures as me before we can get started. The miniatures and the rules should stand on their own merits and not require me bolstering them by selling people the idea. I let the games I run speak for themselves.

The OP's situation is a bit different since the game he wants to play isn't out yet. However, I think your approach to introducing new players to the game is a good one. Being able to give folks the chance to try the game before commiting is a great way to go. Also, the Miniatures and Rules standing on their own merits. For us at the club, it sometimes works similarly but with a twist.

More often, the club will decide we want to play a certain kind of gaming, say Post Apoc for example. Folks will use what post apoc minis they already have and we'll either debate the merits of rulesets we've played in the past or try new ones to see if it's going to be to our liking. Generally it's after we've settled on a ruleset that folks are more likely to buy a force or expand the force that they have of that genre.

Of course we have the beneift of a flexible club and mostly generic rulesets, so while we do often paint up new armies for new games, most of the club members already have miniatures for 28mm sci-fi and Fantasy in Skirmish and Platoon sized games, post apoc skirmish games, spaceship games and even small scale (10mm in our case) large battle sci-fi games. Not that it stops us from buying and painting more minis, but auditioning a ruleset is comparatively easy task for the club, requiring only one person to buy the game and the rest to show up with some minis from their collection.

I think the OP should give DZC a try for the rules. If the rules are even somewhat agreeable, then pick a faction who's playstyle you like best or who's army lists best fit the planetstorm miniatures faction you like best. Then just run the minis you like with that DZC list and have a good time. If the DZC rules don't quite float your boat, maybe your friends will be willing to play planetstorm with their minis. Then everybody wins.

Our group is prone to buying models from the range they are playing, just because we are generally campaign/story gamers and like the “cinema” of the battles. I’m personally not opposed to the idea and if I end up playing DZC I may well do just that although I doubt it will make it pop in my head – I’d be concerned the miniatures would just look out of place up against a DZC force.

I have a game of DZC scheduled for tomorrow to give it a fair try.

Davor wrote:

As a side note, I saw Armada was doing ground combat, got interested, and once I saw the minis, I was so turned off my focus will be on Dropzone Commander. I don't see anything good in Armada ground combat version. That could be one reason why people are turned of on Armada. The minis are not that nice looking, especially when compared to Dropzone Commander.

Obviously taste in miniatures is very subjective. As it happens the group is still somewhat split on the looks of the models. Half of us prefer the PF minis and the other half prefer DZC. I’ve been talking with a couple of the guys since I first started the thread and it seems they would have preferred to wait for PF but ultimately they just want to play the game with the most opponents so that’s DZC and they are happy enough to jump on board… can’t blame em for that.

Davor wrote:

Played 2 games of DzC and it's really fun. I can't see how much fun Armada is going to be, so I would' give up on DzC.

Any reason why you don't like DzC? Going back to reread the long post you made last to see if the reason is there.

Mostly it’s the miniatures and the background that don’t appeal and that’s down to personal taste. As for the gameplay, I didn’t enjoy it – hard to pinpoint exactly why because I haven’t played a lot but I’ve seen a few games at this stage. I suppose part of it was down the units basically having the rock paper scissors approach to unit types… I’m going to give it another try but I can’t get over the models at all.

Farplane wrote:
[
Our group is prone to buying models from the range they are playing, just because we are generally campaign/story gamers and like the “cinema” of the battles. I’m personally not opposed to the idea and if I end up playing DZC I may well do just that although I doubt it will make it pop in my head – I’d be concerned the miniatures would just look out of place up against a DZC force.

I have a game of DZC scheduled for tomorrow to give it a fair try.

Glad to hear that you're giving DZC a try. Maybe you'll end up loving it.

Still, I would push a bit with the idea that game that mixes minis can be just as campaign/story as one that doesn't. As long as the faction is visually consistent within itself it won't look any different than the DZC factions look from each other. Building a backstory for your force can only increase the story element of your gaming. Just don't be lazy about it. Your friends will likely be more accepting of alternate models if you present them painted and with a good backstory than if you just plunk them down and say "this is what I'm playing with."

As before best of luck whatever you decide to do.

Farplane wrote:

frozenwastes wrote:
Mostly it’s the miniatures and the background that don’t appeal and that’s down to personal taste. As for the gameplay, I didn’t enjoy it – hard to pinpoint exactly why because I haven’t played a lot but I’ve seen a few games at this stage. I suppose part of it was down the units basically having the rock paper scissors approach to unit types… I’m going to give it another try but I can’t get over the models at all.

Fair enough. I am curious, since FA is not out yet, how do you know you will like the game? Just in case you don't like FA, do you have anything else as a back up? Is there any other games that are like FA, DzC that you can fall back on to play or at least use for your imagination to make what you want to do?

Davor wrote:


Fair enough. I am curious, since FA is not out yet, how do you know you will like the game? Just in case you don't like FA, do you have anything else as a back up? Is there any other games that are like FA, DzC that you can fall back on to play or at least use for your imagination to make what you want to do?

I like firestorm armada and I've played uncharted seas and dystopian wars - all are spartan games and I've enjoyed them all. Firestorm is the only one that took traction here really - the fantasy & steampunk themes of the others just weren't that popular. So it's an educated assumption that since I like 3 of the other games they have produced which all have similar mechanics, that I will also like planetfall.

Of course it's entirely possible it sucks when it comes out... And no I don't have a backup plan for that scale

That sucks Farplane. For me 30 years ago, like I said, I basically gave up on everything once nobody was interested in it. I don't think there is anything else you can do.

You have two options. 1: adapt and play with the rest of the group. 2: Quit and say at least you tried.

Hope the best for you. Let us know how DzC works for you.