Logic of two different specialist weapons giving +1 attack

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**minigun762**

Considering that they are supposed to require a non traditional or conventional technique to properly use, do it make sense that they'd benefit each other.

For example, I believe you'd use a power fist in a far different capacity than you would a lightning claw.

**Zewrath**

I'm sorry, but what exactly is the question? Not sure if I understand.

**CShaffer**

Zewrath wrote:
I'm sorry, but what exactly is the question? Not sure if I understand.

I believe the question is why does this happen.

**minigun762**

Zewrath wrote:
I'm sorry, but what exactly is the question? Not sure if I understand.

Sorry, I was unclear.

Question is what is the justification for the argument that two different specialist weapons benefit each other?
Is there some bit of background that explains why a thunder hammer is used in a similar fashion to a lightning claw.

**Jinx Magiga**

Nope,purely mechanics

**Zewrath**

Oh.. Well, I don't think you're suppose to think too much about actual realism, I mean a Dark Eldar Succubus can literally dodge bullets, yet most mentally challenged Orks that swing slower than an Alzheimer's patient still hit her on a 4+.
My best guess is that the specialist weapon rule is there for added flexibility and so you don't have to pay 50/60 points for 2 fists/hammers. Although, AFAIK, the power fist doesn't really handle that much different than the lightning claw, according to fluff the lighting claw is essentially a power fist with it's power field focused on the retractable blades.

**minigun762**

Zewrath wrote:
Oh.. Well, I don't think you're suppose to think too much about actual realism, I mean a Dark Eldar Succubus can literally dodge bullets, yet most mentally challenged Orks that swing slower than an Alzheimer's patient still hit her on a 4+.
My best guess is that the specialist weapon rule is there for added flexibility and so you don't have to pay 50/60 points for 2 fists/hammers. Although, AFAIK, the power fist doesn't really handle that much different than the lightning claw, according to fluff the lighting claw is essentially a power fist with it's power field focused on the retractable blades.

True, true.

I just like understanding the "why" of things beyond "sorcery" or "game mechanic"

**BoomWolf**

Orks are not that slow....

besides, having game balance and fluff set aside, when it comes to CC, especially in a mass combat-even the most useless soldier will do SOME damage, out of pure randomness of swings landing on SOMETHING. (if the swing was any good is left for the "wound" roll)

**jreilly89**

Think of it as the same style as a person wielding two daggers, but the one in the left hand is intentionally held backwards. Often times it just adds a degree of flexibility, IF you're skilled with said style. Besides, I'd like to assume my Terminators have trained enough with a LC/PF combo to use it effectively. It's rather odd, but given enough training you could fight pretty well with it.

**Grey Templar**

Mechanics mostly.

But I see LCs being used similar to boxing gloves and/or punch daggers. Short and swift jabbing motions as well as lateral cuts.

You aren't slashing about. You are stabbing opponents or cutting across them to cause deep slash wounds. Not going for the relatively shallow wounds a wide slash would cause.

In that sense, they'd actually mesh with a PF quite nicely.

**ImAGeek**

A lot of stuff I've read about lightning claws in use in the Horus Heresy novels involves a stabbing type technique from what I recall... Especially Horus in Vengeful Spirit uses his talon as such.

**DaPino**

Think about it this way:

If someone is highly trained in the use of one specific weapon that requires a particular way of handling it, why could he not be trained in the use of a set of these weapons, regardless wether they are similar.
It doesn't really matter whether they 'handle the same way'. If you choose to wield 2 different weapons, you'll develop another, unique, fighting style which benefits using those 2 specific weapons. This style of fighting will probably be unrelated to the fighting style used to wield either of the weapons (although you might see some influences).

Example from real life:
Katana wielders use a different fighting style than broadsword wielders. But when people used a Wakazashi (essentially a smaller katana) along with their katana, their fighting style changed because they had 2 distinct weapons each fullfilling their own function.
Now you could say they're still 2 swords (although I tend to disagree because it would be like saying a shortsword and a claymore are the same because they both have a blade) but it happened with Mauls and Dirks as well in other parts of the world although it was not very common because dual wielding just wasn't viable in the army, it was more of a commoners tactic to wield 2 weapons.

**ZebioLizard2**

Katana wielders use a different fighting style than broadsword wielders. But when people used a Wakazashi (essentially a smaller katana) along with their katana, their fighting style changed because they had 2 distinct weapons each fullfilling their own function.

Ironically I feel that is the purpose for the Power Dagger in the Alpha Legion rules for HH, it's meant to be a cheap specialist weapon that fulfills the role of a smaller weapon to fight alongside their bigger more potent specialist weapon.

**BoomWolf**

Actually its probably most often used to have an "on initiative" backup to your axes when you just don't need the power of the axe, but do need to strike at initiative.

**ImAGeek**

I think the Power Dagger is basically to give another specialist weapon (such as a paragon blade) a cheap extra attack.

**vipoid**

I don't think 2 different specialist weapons should give an extra attack.

But then, nor am I sold on pistols or extra CCWs giving extra attacks. I mean, shouldn't the extra attack be with the pistol/CCW's profile - rather than your main weapon? Otherwise, how exactly are you getting an extra attack with it? Possibly you're parrying with the extra CCW... but surely you're not parrying with a sodding pistol? And, by that logic, shouldn't a shield give you an extra attack - since parrying is their only function?

**Zewrath**

vipoid wrote:
I don't think 2 different specialist weapons should give an extra attack.

But then, nor am I sold on pistols or extra CCWs giving extra attacks. I mean, shouldn't the extra attack be with the pistol/CCW's profile - rather than your main weapon? Otherwise, how exactly are you getting an extra attack with it? Possibly you're parrying with the extra CCW... but surely you're not parrying with a sodding pistol? And, by that logic, shouldn't a shield give you an extra attack - since parrying is their only function?

GW explains the extra attack from the pistol is used this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtAH7kGEqic&t=1m36s

**CthuluIsSpy**

Zewrath wrote:
vipoid wrote:
I don't think 2 different specialist weapons should give an extra attack.

But then, nor am I sold on pistols or extra CCWs giving extra attacks. I mean, shouldn't the extra attack be with the pistol/CCW's profile - rather than your main weapon? Otherwise, how exactly are you getting an extra attack with it? Possibly you're parrying with the extra CCW... but surely you're not parrying with a sodding pistol? And, by that logic, shouldn't a shield give you an extra attack - since parrying is their only function?

GW explains the extra attack from the pistol is used this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtAH7kGEqic&t=1m36s

Relic, actually.
But yes, I think that's what GW had in mind.

**Zewrath**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Relic, actually.
But yes, I think that's what GW had in mind.

I don't have the books on me, but I'm quite sure GW mentions in the 5th/6th BRB that the extra attack actually is used like this, but rather than resorting to the pistols S and AP, they just count as +1 attack for the sake of simplicity.
I could be wrong though.

**vipoid**

Zewrath wrote:

GW explains the extra attack from the pistol is used this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtAH7kGEqic&t=1m36s

Ok, fine, so why doesn't that translate to the tabletop?

I mean, if pistols are fired in combat, then surely the extra attack should be with the pistol's profile?

**CthuluIsSpy**

Ah, probably. I vaguely remember something like that, yes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vipoid wrote:
Zewrath wrote:

GW explains the extra attack from the pistol is used this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtAH7kGEqic&t=1m36s

Ok, fine, so why doesn't that translate to the tabletop?

I mean, if pistols are fired in combat, then surely the extra attack should be with the pistol's profile?

Balance. Imagine a space marine with a plasma pistol.
He now has a free S7 AP2 attack, which can be combined with whatever power weapon he has equipped now.

**vipoid**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Balance. Imagine a space marine with a plasma pistol.
He now has a free S7 AP2 attack, which can be combined with whatever power weapon he has equipped now.

Which might actually make the Plasma Pistol worth its excessive cost.

**Zewrath**

vipoid wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Balance. Imagine a space marine with a plasma pistol.
He now has a free S7 AP2 attack, which can be combined with whatever power weapon he has equipped now.

Which might actually make the Plasma Pistol worth its excessive cost.

I second this statement.

**ZebioLizard2**

Zewrath wrote:
vipoid wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Balance. Imagine a space marine with a plasma pistol.
He now has a free S7 AP2 attack, which can be combined with whatever power weapon he has equipped now.

Which might actually make the Plasma Pistol worth its excessive cost.

I second this statement.

Third, I've been sick of that thing being the cost of a base space marine and yet never has been useful to buy, because for some reason it's one of those "over-valued" things they test with.

**Skinnereal**

Anyone trained well enough to use a specialist weapon is trained to use 2.

**Solis Luna Astrum**

vipoid wrote:

I mean, if pistols are fired in combat, then surely the extra attack should be with the pistol's profile?

Great idea! Lets slow the game down even more!

**vipoid**

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
Great idea! Lets slow the game down even more!

a) Compared to all the other crap at the moment, I really don't think this will slow the game down much. It's just a small droplet in the vast, convoluted ocean that is 40k's rules.

b) If you want to speed it up, remove the 'pistols/extra CCWs granting extra attacks' rule entirely. At the very least, that's fewer dice to roll.

Skinnereal wrote:
Anyone trained well enough to use a specialist weapon is trained to use 2.

Ok, they're trained to use both - hence there being no chance of them cutting off their own leg or somesuch.

However, that doesn't explain where the extra attack is coming from.

**Skinnereal**

vipoid wrote:
However, that doesn't explain where the extra attack is coming from.

I now see the problem:

1 ccw = normal attacks
2 ccw/ pistol = normal attacks +1

1 specialist weapon = normal attacks
1 specialist weapon +ccw/pistol = normal attacks
2 specialist weapons = normal attacks +1

So, why doesn't a PF and a stick allow the extra attack?
And, if Spec-WeapA isn't the same as SpecWeapB, how does combat work at all without a Gets-Hot type effect?

In DnD terms, any model that can take 2 special weapons gets the Dual-Wield feat

**CthuluIsSpy**

vipoid wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Balance. Imagine a space marine with a plasma pistol.
He now has a free S7 AP2 attack, which can be combined with whatever power weapon he has equipped now.

Which might actually make the Plasma Pistol worth its excessive cost.

You might have a point there

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
vipoid wrote:

I mean, if pistols are fired in combat, then surely the extra attack should be with the pistol's profile?

Great idea! Lets slow the game down even more!

I believe there's already a rule in the game where you get another attack that's resolved at a different strength and is rolled separately.
Don't the techpriests have something like that?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skinnereal wrote:
vipoid wrote:
However, that doesn't explain where the extra attack is coming from.

I now see the problem:

1 ccw = normal attacks
2 ccw/ pistol = normal attacks +1

1 specialist weapon = normal attacks
1 specialist weapon +ccw/pistol = normal attacks
2 specialist weapons = normal attacks +1

So, why doesn't a PF and a stick allow the extra attack?
And, if Spec-WeapA isn't the same as SpecWeapB, how does combat work at all without a Gets-Hot type effect?

In DnD terms, any model that can take 2 special weapons gets the Dual-Wield feat

Maybe it just takes too much coordination? Like trying to drum properly with a sausage in one hand and a rubber chicken in the other.

**vipoid**

Skinnereal wrote:

I now see the problem:

1 ccw = normal attacks
2 ccw/ pistol = normal attacks +1

1 specialist weapon = normal attacks
1 specialist weapon +ccw/pistol = normal attacks
2 specialist weapons = normal attacks +1

So, why doesn't a PF and a stick allow the extra attack?
And, if Spec-WeapA isn't the same as SpecWeapB, how does combat work at all without a Gets-Hot type effect?

In DnD terms, any model that can take 2 special weapons gets the Dual-Wield feat

That's a big part of it, yeah.

I mean, I thought the point was that specialist weapons were difficult to use - hence you can't easily use other weapons with them. So, why is it that holding two specialist weapons - which are both awkward to use - make it easier to use them?

I could maybe understand it if you only got the bonus for wielding two of the same specialist weapon, but allowing it for any combination just seems preposterous.