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I play Dark Angels and I love their fluff. I love the models, I love everything about them. But I've been struggling to win games, having only had a draw and one win. I've thought about switching to regular SM to run some other chapters and tactics, but it feels wrong I don't necessarily want to run an all RW spam list, but I like to win. I don't need to WAAC, but never winning sucks. What are your guys' thoughts? Should I jump ship or stick it out and keep grinding away, to find that perfect list?

The whole point of a hobby is to have a fun activity to do in your leisure time.

If not winning more games is spoiling that, and the remedy isn't going to spoil other's fun (and your proposal certainly shouldn't unless you mutate into some sort of cheese jerk) them I fail to see the problem.

Of course, there could be greater satisfaction long term with sticking with DA until you get so intimately acquainted with all the nuances that you start to win, but there will be gaming groups and environment that simply may be too focused on optimised lists for that to realistically happen without a new codex, if yours is like that, then that's probably not going to happen.

There's no problem running any flavour of marines as any other flavour of marines so long as everything is still wysiwyg wargear wise. Due to GWs poor balancing it's very common to run into bad situations like this so you gotta do what you gotta do.

Could we see your list?

Also, if you feel you absolutely must go with another SM chapter, you could always build it specifically as an ally detachment. That way, your main force is still Dark Angels.

I would do the same thing if I were you. It doesn't matter how they're painted as long as weapons are WYSIWYG. Run SM until DA get a new book that might actually be competitive. Definitely take centurions and probably a thunder fire cannon, they're ridiculous.

Yea pick up the SM codex and start plucking around with SM. I would see it as a bonus that you can fairly easily manage a switcheroo with DA and SM. The SM codex is by far the richest 40k codex since its the oldest and always has been the centerpiece and is never a dog in the competitive meta.

Eventually DA will get a new codex and at that point in time you can repurpose your models into DA. This is really just an issue of the cyclical nature of power creep and codex updates. Just embrace it since its an essential component of a dynamic game. And do cool things like run an ally of Ravenwing bikes for quick objective grabbers to make it feel like you are keeping in touch with your DA fluff.

Right now GK and SW are all the rage. Don't worry, DA will get their turn. And meanwhile SM is never out of season.

I feel like it's not WAAC to use Codex: Space Marines to play Dark Angels. They're a mostly codex adherent chapter anyway, so whatever. I've never really had a problem with it so long as they're still equipped appropriately.

Here's a pretty general list I run. Sometimes I throw in a Razorback or Azrael, also, Whirlwinds are kind of a maybe. Just got one and scratchbuilt the other, am testing them out to see whether I like them or not.

HQ
Librarian, ML2, Powerfield Generator

Troops
Tac Squad, 10 guys, Plasma Gun, Land Raider

Elite
DW Terminators, 10 guys, Assault Cannon X2, Chainfist

DW CCW, Lightning Claws X3, TH/SS X2, Land Raider w/ Multi Melta

Fast Attack
Ravenwing Attack Squadron, 6 guys, Plasma Gun, Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta

Land Speeder X2, Assault Cannon X2, Heavy Bolter X2

Heavy Support
Whirlwind X2

Also, i have only really run in to one guy in my meta who plays Fliers. I do need to get some AA, but it's not necessarily a mandatory for most games. Most people I play are DE and Tau with some Nids thrown in (the Nid player runs a Dual Flyrant list)

 jreilly89 wrote:
I play Dark Angels and I love their fluff. I love the models, I love everything about them. But I've been struggling to win games, having only had a draw and one win. I've thought about switching to regular SM to run some other chapters and tactics, but it feels wrong I don't necessarily want to run an all RW spam list, but I like to win. I don't need to WAAC, but never winning sucks. What are your guys' thoughts? Should I jump ship or stick it out and keep grinding away, to find that perfect list?

You didn't write the codex. Losing isn't fun for you or we wouldn't be discussing this right now.

Ravenwing is a very good army and it IS Dark Angels. So I say play it, or play the other way if it makes you happy but if you cant live with losing, switch. No sense cutting off your nose to spite your face so if you like to play Warhammer as dark Angels, be a success story with them.

Tactics are 65% of the game. You can make up for a lot when you DEPLOY well, when you remember what the mission is and stay focused on it and when you are not rigid in your willingness to try new ideas. Obstinate people lose more than flexible ones do. True story.

So explain your plan, using the list you normally use. Maybe that would be a good thing to consider instead of switching armies?

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I play Dark Angels and I love their fluff. I love the models, I love everything about them. But I've been struggling to win games, having only had a draw and one win. I've thought about switching to regular SM to run some other chapters and tactics, but it feels wrong I don't necessarily want to run an all RW spam list, but I like to win. I don't need to WAAC, but never winning sucks. What are your guys' thoughts? Should I jump ship or stick it out and keep grinding away, to find that perfect list?

You didn't write the codex. Losing isn't fun for you or we wouldn't be discussing this right now.

Ravenwing is a very good army and it IS Dark Angels. So I say play it, or play the other way if it makes you happy but if you cant live with losing, switch. No sense cutting off your nose to spite your face so if you like to play Warhammer as dark Angels, be a success story with them.

Tactics are 65% of the game. You can make up for a lot when you DEPLOY well, when you remember what the mission is and stay focused on it and when you are not rigid in your willingness to try new ideas. Obstinate people lose more than flexible ones do. True story.

So explain your plan, using the list you normally use. Maybe that would be a good thing to consider instead of switching armies?

Honestly, not really sure how this was supposed to help? I feel I play as tactically as I can and I still lose to optimized lists.Don't get me wrong, in some games I'll definitely deployed badly/made bad tactical calls, but for 70% of my matches I feel I am playing them as best as I can. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the sentiment, but not really the advice I was looking for.

Maybe your dice hate you like mine hate me... Next time I play, I'm getting them drunk before the game.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Here's a pretty general list I run. Sometimes I throw in a Razorback or Azrael, also, Whirlwinds are kind of a maybe. Just got one and scratchbuilt the other, am testing them out to see whether I like them or not.

Librarian, ML2, Powerfield Generator

Tac Squad, 10 guys, Plasma Gun, Land Raider

DW Terminators, 10 guys, Assault Cannon X2, Chainfist

DW CCW, Lightning Claws X3, TH/SS X2, Land Raider w/ Multi Melta

Ravenwing Attack Squadron, 6 guys, Plasma Gun, Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta

Land Speeder X2, Assault Cannon X2, Heavy Bolter X2

Whirlwind X2

Also, i have only really run in to one guy in my meta who plays Fliers. I do need to get some AA, but it's not necessarily a mandatory for most games. Most people I play are DE and Tau with some Nids thrown in (the Nid player runs a Dual Flyrant list)

TWO Land Raiders? So two DS Terminator units, two land Raiders in their face round 2(ish). Big rush in round 2 or 3. if those Land Raiders get stranded early its up hill for two reasons: first the obvious and second that they cant block LOS for the Deep Strikers/approaching bikes etc. Ignores cover and artillery arent rare. I can see the problem. It doesn't help that the firepower mostly starts off the board/embarked, is short ranged or is fragile. Whirlwinds are great against your normal opponents (Tau and DE).

So how do you normally use it? Against what? And no that wasnt meant to be critical its just me thinking/typing out loud.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Here's a pretty general list I run. Sometimes I throw in a Razorback or Azrael, also, Whirlwinds are kind of a maybe. Just got one and scratchbuilt the other, am testing them out to see whether I like them or not.

Librarian, ML2, Powerfield Generator

Tac Squad, 10 guys, Plasma Gun, Land Raider

DW Terminators, 10 guys, Assault Cannon X2, Chainfist

DW CCW, Lightning Claws X3, TH/SS X2, Land Raider w/ Multi Melta

Ravenwing Attack Squadron, 6 guys, Plasma Gun, Attack Bike w/ Multi Melta

Land Speeder X2, Assault Cannon X2, Heavy Bolter X2

Whirlwind X2

Also, i have only really run in to one guy in my meta who plays Fliers. I do need to get some AA, but it's not necessarily a mandatory for most games. Most people I play are DE and Tau with some Nids thrown in (the Nid player runs a Dual Flyrant list)

TWO Land Raiders? So two DS Terminator units, two land Raiders in their face round 2(ish). Big rush in round 2 or 3. if those Land Raiders get stranded early its up hill for two reasons: first the obvious and second that they cant block LOS for the Deep Strikers/approaching bikes etc. Ignores cover and artillery arent rare. I can see the problem. It doesn't help that the firepower mostly starts off the board/embarked, is short ranged or is fragile. Whirlwinds are great against your normal opponents (Tau and DE).

So how do you normally use it? Against what? And no that wasnt meant to be critical its just me thinking/typing out loud.

Hey no worries. Usually I use my Ravenwing to get up in my opponents and harass them, although recently I have considered trying out their outflank rule. LandSpeeders I use as pure dakka and harassment. My TL Las Raider I usually use to blow away the biggest vehicles and my Redeemer I point at the squishiest/most threatening units, then throw my CCW termies at them. My Librarian I keep for his invuln field and throw around some prescience/psychic scream. The Whirlwinds I've onjly used in one game, and they seem decent, although I have yet to use them against the armies I normally fight (Friday the guy I normally go against brought a fairly strong Nids list with little swam and a lot of T6 creatures).

I've also considered/want when it becomes financially feasible to get a Dreadnought/drop pod combo.

Yes, outflank them always. Two reasons. One, they have the range from either side to affect the battle. Second they instantly change enemy deployment and anything you do that squeezes the enemy to a more central location hekps assault armies be more effective. Just BEING in reserve affects them.

In a list like this if you have them magnetized, i might suggest the GodHammer pattern more just because early on, it would be nice to kill an important anti-tank threat. The flamers are very awesome with Power fo the Machine Spirit, but that is more than likely the one that dies first if i dont miss my guess. If the enemy gets you stranded, the Godhammers will continue to produce, whereas the flamer one wont. slight list change but consider it.

Whirlwinds are really great for what they do just by being on the table. Enemies space themselves out and slow themselves down to avoid being too good a target for the Whirlwind. Against Tau and DE, they are particularly handy for ignoring cover and making them pay when you pop their transports (more reason for the God hammers). Whirlwinds and the speeders combine pretty well against massed squishies.

As for Nidzilla lists...more reasons for Godhammers.

I don't think highly of Dreadnoughts. They certainly are not the answer to Monsters most of the time (well maaaaaybe a Furioso....maybe... maaaaaybe...).

I'd add a Flakk Missile Launcher to the troops unit. cheap easy way to add anti air you mentioned. Tyranids like their flyrants.

Honestly, I was in the same boat with Tyranids and hating the codex and the mono-build lists that came from it. I jumped ship and just played my first 1000pt game with my brand spanking new Eldar sniper army with Assassin ally and had a blast. No taking units I dislike just because they're good and a 'must-have', no compromising between the 3rd edition relics and modern 7th strategies, no hassle on being outclassed in every important phase while my single favorite unit, Genestealers, get slaughtered before they get anywhere near combat.

I bailed on the weak codex, put it on the back burner as I kinda sorta vaguely work towards improving that army, and jumped into an interesting army with bits I liked and just had what was easily my most enjoyable game since returning to 40k.

I wouldn't say sell the old army, but there's nothing wrong with getting a new one, building from square one up through the points levels and enjoying a 'better' codex. Especially if you're simply looking at the jump to standard Marines. Not that big of a divergence there and you should be able to find what you're after between fluff and lists. Even taking Dark Angel allies with whatever you land on just to keep some of your favorite units in the games.

I use codex space marines when i play greenwing, much more variety and flavour, dark angels arent just all about death/raven wing.

Which is what i think let's us down for the codex the lack of variety for just playing a standard company of marines

Just play your DA with the SM Codex, or alternatively do a SM CAD + DA Allies army. Dark Angels is probably the weakest Imperial codex after Blood Angels ( which is so old I´m not sure if even counts. ) Nothing wrong with being displeased about that.

I personally play the latter and I win more than I lose. I use a variety of SM and DA units in my army, and to be honest by combining the best of both you can actually get a more effective list than by just pure SM. There are some nice combos one achieves by doing this. For example, you can get a Scouting SM Smashbane by having him join Ravenwing -bikes. Cheaper than doing White Scars + Khan, and leaves you with more armywide options.


Modeling Stormtalons, Bike Squads and pretty much everything meshes together really nicely when using SM+DA. There´s some examples in my armyblog ( signature. ) You can paint all bikes and flying things black and have them look like Ravenwing, and so on.

If you want to be competitve, I´d drop Terminators of any kind. It´s sad, but they really haven´t been a competitive unit for a long time.

 Jancoran wrote:
Yes, outflank them always. Two reasons. One, they have the range from either side to affect the battle. Second they instantly change enemy deployment and anything you do that squeezes the enemy to a more central location hekps assault armies be more effective. Just BEING in reserve affects them.

In a list like this if you have them magnetized, i might suggest the GodHammer pattern more just because early on, it would be nice to kill an important anti-tank threat. The flamers are very awesome with Power fo the Machine Spirit, but that is more than likely the one that dies first if i dont miss my guess. If the enemy gets you stranded, the Godhammers will continue to produce, whereas the flamer one wont. slight list change but consider it.

Whirlwinds are really great for what they do just by being on the table. Enemies space themselves out and slow themselves down to avoid being too good a target for the Whirlwind. Against Tau and DE, they are particularly handy for ignoring cover and making them pay when you pop their transports (more reason for the God hammers). Whirlwinds and the speeders combine pretty well against massed squishies.

As for Nidzilla lists...more reasons for Godhammers.

I don't think highly of Dreadnoughts. They certainly are not the answer to Monsters most of the time (well maaaaaybe a Furioso....maybe... maaaaaybe...).

I'd add a Flakk Missile Launcher to the troops unit. cheap easy way to add anti air you mentioned. Tyranids like their flyrants.

Right on, thanks for all the help man. Just to clarify, what's the Godhammer variant? I keep hearing it get tossed around. Also, really about the dreadnoughts? I've seen a lot of people run them with either a Flamer and Assault cannon or the various other weapons. Yeah they get focused next turn, but that turn they come in they seem to really pound people.

Also, what are your thoughts on the DA flyer? I'm probably gonna take an Aegis Line for the AA, but was curious as to the Dark Talon for ground harassment. Not too fond of the Jetfighter just because of its limited missiles

 jreilly89 wrote:
Right on, thanks for all the help man. Just to clarify, what's the Godhammer variant? I keep hearing it get tossed around. Also, really about the dreadnoughts? I've seen a lot of people run them with either a Flamer and Assault cannon or the various other weapons. Yeah they get focused next turn, but that turn they come in they seem to really pound people.

Also, what are your thoughts on the DA flyer? I'm probably gonna take an Aegis Line for the AA, but was curious as to the Dark Talon for ground harassment. Not too fond of the Jetfighter just because of its limited missiles

"Godhammer" is the name of the lascannons on the Phobos-pattern land raider - the Phobos is the default type of land raider (2x Twin Lascannons, 1x Heavy Bolter).
I sometimes use a podding Dread with a multimelta to go with a Deathwing Assault to take out a vehicle, haven't taken one for just stompy/dakka for a while, so I don't know how viable they are in 7th.
I use a Nephlim in friendly games, as it can threaten the types of flyers I see often (Croissants, Dakkajets, Sunsharks, Stormtalons), but wouldn't bother if I was expecting Stormravens / Heldrakes. Never tried out the Dark Talon.

 Quanar wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Right on, thanks for all the help man. Just to clarify, what's the Godhammer variant? I keep hearing it get tossed around. Also, really about the dreadnoughts? I've seen a lot of people run them with either a Flamer and Assault cannon or the various other weapons. Yeah they get focused next turn, but that turn they come in they seem to really pound people.

Also, what are your thoughts on the DA flyer? I'm probably gonna take an Aegis Line for the AA, but was curious as to the Dark Talon for ground harassment. Not too fond of the Jetfighter just because of its limited missiles

"Godhammer" is the name of the lascannons on the Phobos-pattern land raider - the Phobos is the default type of land raider (2x Twin Lascannons, 1x Heavy Bolter).
I sometimes use a podding Dread with a multimelta to go with a Deathwing Assault to take out a vehicle, haven't taken one for just stompy/dakka for a while, so I don't know how viable they are in 7th.
I use a Nephlim in friendly games, as it can threaten the types of flyers I see often (Croissants, Dakkajets, Sunsharks, Stormtalons), but wouldn't bother if I was expecting Stormravens / Heldrakes. Never tried out the Dark Talon.

Gotcha. Yeah, that's one of the LR variants I currently use. Dreads can't charge after podding in, right? And idk, I feel like a jetfighter could take on most of the flyers I see (couple flyrants and a croissant) but I feel they're just better at ground harassment. Why are they so bad against Storm Ravens/Heldrakes?

The Godhammers weakness, as stated in many tacticas for ages, is that it´s trying to be an antitank and an assault vehicle at the same time.

Occasionally it will make you feel like you have to take those Lascannon shots to ensure something blows up while still in the backline/middle ground of the table, and on the other hand you would need to advance to ensure that whatever it´s carrying gets delivered.

That´s why I´d recommend the Crusader or the Redeemer. I played Godhammer for around 10 games and realized the problem it has is real, and switched to a Crusader. ( Altough I rarely use LR´s anymore, the only really competitive one is the dakkabanner combo. )

As for Dreadnoughts, a podding Dread/Ironclad that can threaten tanks and infantry ( flamer + antitank weapon/CCW for example ) is a great wrench to shove in their plans. It will demand the enemies attention during the turn you have it arrive, for a Dreadnought just rampaging freely in the backlines can hardly ever be left unattended. For lists that use target saturation or alpha strike it´s a perfectly viable option.

I use a combination of Vindicator(s), Smashbane+bikers of different kinds, Imperial Knight and drop podding marines/dreadnoughts. All will be in the opponents face by turn 2 - none of them can be ignored so choices have to be made, and some -will- survive and cause mayhem, usually making the opponents game very defensive and disoriented. Usually Smashbane and the Knight get most of the attention, and they can take it. This gives the rest of my army free reign to do what they want unless the enemy rolls really well. Gunlines so far have been an autowin, they suffer from a highly mobile alpha strike the most.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Gotcha. Yeah, that's one of the LR variants I currently use. Dreads can't charge after podding in, right? And idk, I feel like a jetfighter could take on most of the flyers I see (couple flyrants and a croissant) but I feel they're just better at ground harassment. Why are they so bad against Storm Ravens/Heldrakes?

Correct on not being able to charge after podding, but that's what the Melta for. And as Runic mentions, it's a threat that needs to be dealt with.
The Nephilim is bad against AV12 flyers because aside from the Lascannon it has nothing that can cause a penetrating hit. The reason to take a flyer is to avoid having to hit on 6's, but with the Neph you just replace it with glancing on 6's instead. And if you do take the Las, it's only a single shot which is not terribly reliable.

That's why I feel like it's meant to be air support, not flyer defense, which makes me sad because it looks WAY cooler than the Turkey or the flying refrigerators.

@RunicFIN: Vindicators are definitely next on my purchase. Currently, I'm torn between that and a drop pod/dread combo. I feel the vindicator has a little more durability/threat to it. If you had to take one or the other, which would you guys pick?

It's easy enough to retrofit a Nephilim as a counts-as Storm Talon... or better, Avenger Strike Fighter.

 jreilly89 wrote:
@RunicFIN: Vindicators are definitely next on my purchase. Currently, I'm torn between that and a drop pod/dread combo. I feel the vindicator has a little more durability/threat to it. If you had to take one or the other, which would you guys pick?

Depends a bit on what the rest of the list will be. Both are a threat that can´t be ignored for different reasons. Vindicator can potentially oneshot expensive units and it has a strong psychological effect on most opponents. The dropdread doesn´t do as much potential damage, but no one likes something behind/admist their own army that also has the potential to tie up, shoot or plain melee something important to bits.

If you don´t have any Drop Pods going, take the Vindicator. If you have atleast 2 Drop Pods in your list, take the Dread and drop it simultaneously with another pod on turn 1, or solo afterwards ( turn 1 solo pod is always a bad idea. )

In general I´ve found a high threat + high target saturation alpha strike is a great strategy. The psychological effect is immense. Imagine you are getting a scouting Smashbane, Callidus Assassin, Vindicators, Dropdreads, Meltaveterans and a maybe even a Knight waltzing on your face at the same time. It´s not an easy situation to handle, for Smashbane alone can potentially wreck over half of a players army, so can the Knight if you get lucky. The amount of attention it takes to kill both of them ( unless it´s a tailored list ) is massive, and that still means there´s marines, dreadnoughts, an assassin and vindicators going party time elsewhere around your army. I find the combination of Drop Pod units ( 3 optimal imo, so you have 2 arrive on turn 1 ) and fast, mobile normally deployed units is best so you don´t have to worry about getting shot off the board if you don´t get to go first.

And if you do...

 RunicFIN wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
@RunicFIN: Vindicators are definitely next on my purchase. Currently, I'm torn between that and a drop pod/dread combo. I feel the vindicator has a little more durability/threat to it. If you had to take one or the other, which would you guys pick?

Depends a bit on what the rest of the list will be. Both are a threat that can´t be ignored for different reasons. Vindicator can potentially oneshot expensive units and it has a strong psychological effect on most opponents. The dropdread doesn´t do as much potential damage, but no one likes something behind/admist their own army that also has the potential to tie up, shoot or plain melee something important to bits.

If you don´t have any Drop Pods going, take the Vindicator. If you have atleast 2 Drop Pods in your list, take the Dread and drop it simultaneously with another pod on turn 1, or solo afterwards ( turn 1 solo pod is always a bad idea. )

In general I´ve found a high threat + high target saturation alpha strike is a great strategy. The psychological effect is immense. Imagine you are getting a scouting Smashbane, Callidus Assassin, Vindicators, Dropdreads, Meltaveterans and a maybe even a Knight waltzing on your face at the same time. It´s not an easy situation to handle, for Smashbane alone can potentially wreck over half of a players army, so can the Knight if you get lucky. The amount of attention it takes to kill both of them ( unless it´s a tailored list ) is massive, and that still means there´s marines, dreadnoughts, an assassin and vindicators going party time elsewhere around your army. I find the combination of Drop Pod units ( 3 optimal imo, so you have 2 arrive on turn 1 ) and fast, mobile normally deployed units is best so you don´t have to worry about getting shot off the board if you don´t get to go first.

And if you do...

So far, I don't have any drop pods, the only other thing in my list is my DW assault termies I think I will take Vindicator, just because of the large blast S10 AP2 goodness, especially, so my RW bikers can outflank all over them

I like drop podding in Blood Angel Fragiosso Dreads but for melee, the normal ones justr arent very good and they get beat on INIT by a huge chunk of the nastiests close combat stuff, plus your looking at a playform that costs almost as much as the storm talon. Meh. I had them with my Grey kNights because the Reinforced Aegis thing used to be more than awesome. But when they changed them...

The Godhammer has been explained. the GodHammer should move and not rely on its firepower above moving most of the time as was said but if you already know that going in, I like it better. Thats a Generalship issue. Just move it likeit has no LasCannons and then fire them as an afterthought. It will end up being more useful over time when it gets immobilized/other than destroyed in this list where anti tank is sparse (and I assume we're still talking about this list). The Godhammer simply provides you a great plan B

Also: I was somewhat surprised to see two LandRaiders and do agree that I think I'd want 6 more terminators instead, personally. But he CAN use them to shield the deep Strikers and thats not a wasted point in this list. I just hate to see themn be useless if immobilized, as the Flamer one will be.

Shouldn't the DA be using crusaders along side a dakka banner and power field techmarines with an aegis , supported by drop pod sm or SW melta units?

 Jancoran wrote:
I like drop podding in Blood Angel Fragiosso Dreads but for melee, the normal ones justr arent very good and they get beat on INIT by a huge chunk of the nastiests close combat stuff, plus your looking at a playform that costs almost as much as the storm talon. Meh. I had them with my Grey kNights because the Reinforced Aegis thing used to be more than awesome. But when they changed them...

The Godhammer has been explained. the GodHammer should move and not rely on its firepower above moving most of the time as was said but if you already know that going in, I like it better. Thats a Generalship issue. Just move it likeit has no LasCannons and then fire them as an afterthought. It will end up being more useful over time when it gets immobilized/other than destroyed in this list where anti tank is sparse (and I assume we're still talking about this list). The Godhammer simply provides you a great plan B

Also: I was somewhat surprised to see two LandRaiders and do agree that I think I'd want 6 more terminators instead, personally. But he CAN use them to shield the deep Strikers and thats not a wasted point in this list. I just hate to see themn be useless if immobilized, as the Flamer one will be.

That's disappointing about Dreadnoughts because, well, giant robot. Yeah, the Godhammer is currently a lot of my anti-tank, but a lot of the meta I've run into doesn't have much tank in it/are all DE skimmers with AV 10/11. And I feel like even if they don't do that much, having two LRs is just scary and forces people to really focus their fire.

Theres no kill like overkill. Id rather auto glance, pen on 2's a couple times a round CONSISTENTLY on my Dark eldar/ Tau enemy than...not?

Like I say, Im trying to find minor ways you can modify the PLAN and not wholesale chuck the list. the list CAN do its job butyou need to give a Respectful nod to the opponent. He's playing to win too and your plan for when things go sideways needs to be at least 75% as good as the one where it all goes to plan. Just saying!