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Lately I have noticed both on Dakkadakka and at some Gaming stores that people seem to really have a strong distaste for Forge World stuff. Any idea where that might come from?

People have a strong dislike of expensive LoW stuff. I haven't really seen anyone hating on FW stuff in general. People have been loving my DKOK even if it's taking me an eternity to do them

People also tend to not like what they don't understand. I can imagine someone might be apprehensive about playing against an army when they know nothing about how it plays.

I've been seeing the opposite.

FW has always had a general distaste from most people until the last year when its gained more tournament acceptance.

Huh.

I had a guy insult me for running a "broken FW list"

After he beat me badly.

The guy began the game refusing to listen to my attempts to explain the differences of an HH list to a normal SM list and than spent the whole game complaining about the rules he refused to let me explain to him before playing. He ended saying I shouldn't have bought the HH book (something I waited a while to get) and just gotten a land raider. I know people are trying to "help" you when giving you advice but its annoying when the help involves berating you for your choices.

FW is common in my group and no one has any problems with it. Thats a good thing since I use a lot of FW models and the HH list. I dont however use LoW unless we agree to both of us playing one and even then its Konrad who while lethal is still only one close combat guy.

Bonus Story: complained loudly to the whole room about how all "the kids" just have crappy 1k point lists. In front of me. The only person under 20 in the room (at the time.) I might just be over sensitive but I felt like quitting 40k after that one horrible experience.


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But I hate LoWs personally.

IMO what happens is people get comfortable with the codex-only game most people start with, figure out how to win games, and build the perfect winning army. So why would they want to let in anything that could change the game and cost them victories? This is one of those things that really depends on where you play. Some places people are reasonable and you can use anything you like, some places are full of WAAC players and you have to build your army the way they want if you want to play any games.

I think the stigma comes from the days when FW was permission only and tended to have horribly broken, overpowered units that were the domain of collectors or special games. And Armorcast before that; I remember in the days of 2nd edition that Armorcast made things like Titans (and also things that didn't exist in the proper game yet like Falcons).

People hate LoW due to their extreame firepower and durability.

FW happens to supply 90% of the LoW unit type, (baneblades, titans, etc)

FW also has its own series of units and rules. some can be...... off.....

Like sometimes a unit can have a low cost but be powerful, or the other way around.
most FW units/upgrades (at least in my experience with the IG) are sidegrades or upgrades with decent pricing like bolting an autocannon to a Chimera or the Manticore Rockets instead of Storm Eagle (default codex rockets) on the Manticore launcher.

but those that are generally considered bad (I think one is a special Tau suit, but Im not certain) give the rest of FW a bad reputation which leasts to a large quanitity of people not bothering to actually try out the FW stuff and hating it without facts.

 Engine of War wrote:
People hate LoW due to their extreame firepower and durability.

Too bad most LoW don't actually have extreme firepower or durability. With the exception of a small number of units (titans, c'tan) LoW are way too expensive for what you get, and the main reason to take one is "huge tanks are awesome" not "I want to win".

Like sometimes a unit can have a low cost but be powerful, or the other way around.

You could say the same thing about everything else GW publishes, including codex rules.

(I think one is a special Tau suit, but Im not certain)

Speaking of not having the facts...

(The Riptide variant has been severely nerfed since the original experimental rules, and is mediocre at best.)

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Any idea where that might come from?

At lot of it comes down to attitude. I'm pro-Forge World, but when this topic comes up I frequently find myself judging some pro-Forge World players as total jerks who I'd never want to play against due to their attitude to other players, and that attitude winds up putting the other players backs up and reinforcing THEIR attitude towards Forge World and any player who want to use it.

There was also (until recently) a logical argument against Forge Worlds legality, but I won't go into it because most of the pro-Forge World camp preferred to twist the argument so they could dismiss it rather than actually come up with an answer to it, which again put the backs up of a lot of other players.

Personally, I plan on playing non-FW lists, at least for the foreseeable future. but if someone wanted to use FW models against me I'd be fine with that. It's all a matter of taste, but IMO you shouldn't let your own tastes interfere with someone else's (I mean, if they demanded to use a LoW when you really didn't want to go against one, that's one thing)

Sounds like the OP was running a Horus Heresy SM list against a regular list. I'm a massive fan of Forge World and can't think why anyone would refuse to play against it under normal conditions. Having said that it''s quite a stretch to expect to be allowed to play what is really a different game system [in terms of balance between different army selections] without a lot of discussion beforehand. I don't have a clue how all of the different Horus Heresy units work. Personally I'd play it because I'm pretty much an anything goes type of player, but I can definitely see why someone would be a little unhappy.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Having said that it''s quite a stretch to expect to be allowed to play what is really a different game system [in terms of balance between different army selections] without a lot of discussion beforehand.

It isn't a different game system, it's just a different army list. Now that LoW are part of standard 40k the difference between a 30k army and a 40k army is no more than the difference between two 40k armies.

I don't have a clue how all of the different Horus Heresy units work.

Then read their rules, just like you'd do in your first game against a 40k army you haven't played against before. Nothing in the 30k rules is all that complicated, if you're familiar with MEQ armies already you should be able to figure out how everything works pretty quickly.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Lately I have noticed both on Dakkadakka and at some Gaming stores that people seem to really have a strong distaste for Forge World stuff. Any idea where that might come from?

A big part is simple ignorance. For some reason many people think FW is all hideously broken "Pay to Win" stuff, when the vast majority is, if anything, the opposite, FW units have historically generally been notably inferior to most Codex equivalents. Their balance really isn't any worse than the Codex stuff, and most people, once challenged, have trouble coming up with something specific that is truly worse than something in a codex.

Others often think it automatically means trying to run a Reaver Titan in a 1500pt game. A lot of people also have gotten burned by people running stuff incorrectly with with incorrect rules, or flat out cheating (often with proxies) and that ruins their experience without checking into what really should have happened. Most of it is ignorance that they never take the time to rectify.

Some people see it as a "rich man's" thing, something beyond what they can ever get into and hate it because of that. That may have had a point a decade ago, but most FW books can be had at near (or under) Codex prices now, and many new GW plastic kits are coming out at, or very near, FW unit prices. For example, Dire Avengers and Tempestus Scions cost as much as Death Korps Grenadiers, and Ork Mek Gunz cost roughly as much as Thudd Guns with crew. Most GW character models now are almost identical in price to most FW character models.

Some of it is because people just don't want to add more stuff into the game, typically because they don't want a change in a metagame they are already comfortable with and don't want anything to upset that. At this point however, with multiple detachments, allies, formations, unbound, dataslates, sub-faction books, etc, it seems rather absurd to hate on FW specifically.

A big reason for stores to not like it is that they can't make money off of it so they just ban it.

Some people often also for some reason think Forgeworld is some 3rd party knock-off making what amount to "house rules", as opposed to a GW department making official products for use in normal play that either aren't profitable to do in plastic (Titans, Leman Russ variant hulls, differentiated IG regiments, ported over Epic models, etc) or just aren't appropriate for a normal Codex (Atlas support tanks, niche sub-factions, etc).

Forge World is unfamiliar.

People hate things that are unfamiliar until they become familiar.

That's all it is- and it's a thing that exists in every aspect of life. That 40K is a competitive game only compounds that issue, as you now bring in the feeling of "I don't know what some of the stuff in this guy's army does, and I'm losing/just lost. Did I lose because this guy's new stuff is broken?"

The problems is also rules. You can't check them yourself and opponents are only forced to show what is printed, not which printing of the book they have and which printing is now legal.

It gives a huge edge to people who can buy stuff online over those who can't. It is enough that they can buy those 4-5 serpents, which are hard to get at a store, but when they suddenly get units no one knows rules for and the only way to check those rules are a book, you don't know and have no option to check, if it is still legal or a pdf , which may be changed, few people will want to play against people with FW rules.

Also maybe in other areas it is different, but here the FW units that people talk about being used, are the OP ones.

 Peregrine wrote:

Then read their rules, just like you'd do in your first game against a 40k army you haven't played against before. Nothing in the 30k rules is all that complicated, if you're familiar with MEQ armies already you should be able to figure out how everything works pretty quickly.

Difference is that I've had years of playing against all of the armies in 40k so I know what to expect. Letting Orks get into CC is a bad idea, as is standing back and letting Tau shoot you. I also have lots of experience playing against the different weapons in 40k so I have a good idea of how effective they will be in different situations. 30k marines? Not a clue. Its a big ask to expect your opponent to buy 3 very expensive books just so you can field you new shines, or have to sit through 15 minutes of having the rules explained to you before the game begins. Finally, I would be very disappointed if the marines weren't 30k models. Having said that I would play it because I'm not competitive, but I can definitely understand someone who is more competitive being a bit peeved. AFAIK there is no tournament that allows 30k vs. 40k.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Bonus Story: complained loudly to the whole room about how all "the kids" just have crappy 1k point lists. In front of me. The only person under 20 in the room (at the time.) I might just be over sensitive but I felt like quitting 40k after that one horrible experience.

You should have filled the room with uppercuts.

There are a variety of reasons.
These include...
1. Seeing them (this is purely opinion based and differs between models/units)as being OTT in power.
2. Players seeing it is elitism from the players who have more money to spend and if they dont or are unable to spend as much they will be at a disadvantage.
3. Not understanding all of the rules.
The list goes on and I am not agreeing or disagreeing. Look for this thread to get closed as all of the other ones have been. Some forums are able to have perfectly calm and reasonable discussions on that topic, but I have yet to see it happen here. lol

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
Huh.

I had a guy insult me for running a "broken FW list"

After he beat me badly.

The guy began the game refusing to listen to my attempts to explain the differences of an HH list to a normal SM list and than spent the whole game complaining about the rules he refused to let me explain to him before playing. He ended saying I shouldn't have bought the HH book (something I waited a while to get) and just gotten a land raider. I know people are trying to "help" you when giving you advice but its annoying when the help involves berating you for your choices.

This is just a case of trying to play a game against an donkey-cave.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Then read their rules, just like you'd do in your first game against a 40k army you haven't played against before. Nothing in the 30k rules is all that complicated, if you're familiar with MEQ armies already you should be able to figure out how everything works pretty quickly.

Difference is that I've had years of playing against all of the armies in 40k so I know what to expect. Letting Orks get into CC is a bad idea, as is standing back and letting Tau shoot you. I also have lots of experience playing against the different weapons in 40k so I have a good idea of how effective they will be in different situations. 30k marines? Not a clue. Its a big ask to expect your opponent to buy 3 very expensive books just so you can field you new shines, or have to sit through 15 minutes of having the rules explained to you before the game begins. Finally, I would be very disappointed if the marines weren't 30k models. Having said that I would play it because I'm not competitive, but I can definitely understand someone who is more competitive being a bit peeved. AFAIK there is no tournament that allows 30k vs. 40k.

Why is that different? Welcome to every new player's experience ever. I've been playing 40K for two years and I'm still unfamiliar with how some of the factions work.

In the past, FW was most well-known for releasing overpowered units. Which wasn't true, actually, as most of their releases are underpowered, but some examples were ridiculously over the top (e.g. Thudd) and those stood out.

In 7th, however, GW has officially stated that they do not want the game to be balanced and purposefully removed every last trace of balance 40k ever had. As a consequence, you might throw in anything by anyone, including FW, in your games. It just doesn't matter anymore.


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 Bronzefists42 wrote:


The guy began the game refusing to listen to my attempts to explain the differences of an HH list to a normal SM list and than spent the whole game complaining about the rules he refused to let me explain to him before playing. He ended saying I shouldn't have bought the HH book (something I waited a while to get) and just gotten a land raider. I know people are trying to "help" you when giving you advice but its annoying when the help involves berating you for your choices.

Tbf, I would not play a HH list with SM list either. Not because of any difference in power level, but playing 30k vs. 40k is just stupid to me as it completely breaks with any logical background story and takes immersion away.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Tbf, I would not play a HH list with SM list either. Not because of any difference in power level, but playing 30k vs. 40k is just stupid to me as it completely breaks with any logical background story and takes immersion away.

You mean like the hello kitty marines or the armies based on football teams or the drop pod army based on the smurfs where the pods are done up as mushroom houses. i've been told these armies dont exist but I've seen the pictures.
The new trend is leading me back towards "for fun" games with buddies and away from competitive games. I wouldnt mind a 30k army vs a 40k army.

Who plays 7th and can say that he plays the game "competitively" with a straight face?

I use a 30k list against a 40k list. I just think it's better to represent my favourite legions and characters the way they were meant to be played rather than proxy them In with C:SM

I wouldn't play 30K vs. 40K either. Mostly because the 30K army would be at an inherent disadvantage up until about 2500 points.

 Sigvatr wrote:
In the past, FW was most well-known for releasing overpowered units. Which wasn't true, actually, as most of their releases are underpowered, but some examples were ridiculously over the top (e.g. Thudd) and those stood out.

Actually the thudd guns aren't a very good example. In 4th/5th edition (when they were first created) they were a mediocre unit at best, the old artillery rules made them incredibly easy to kill and their only redeeming quality was that they were cheaper than the far superior Griffon. Then 6th edition arrived and brought the sheer idiocy of the new artillery rules, where all of the meatshield crew are T7. All FW did was replace AV 10/10/10 with T7 W2 in the stat line just like the other artillery units (the codex TFC, for example), and even then it took quite a while for people to figure out what had happened.

There's no hate in my gaming group and people accept FW. Id sum up the general attitude as follows: "Guys, these days I looked at the FW models at their website and so wanted to buy a <insert any army's big stuff here>. But I stopped when I had 450 Euro in the shopping cart. Ah well, some day..."

Actually it's not that I couldn't free the money for it now that I work fully since years. It's more about realizing you will pay 500 Euro for a heap of resin, of which the sheer worth of materials is at 30 Euro maximum.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Who plays 7th and can say that he plays the game "competitively" with a straight face?

Anyone who paid for a trip to a tournament or sign up at a tournament.