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I've been playing 40k since 3rd and I'm looking for something more balanced. I mainly play super competitive style and enjoy tournaments. My 2 40k lists are space wolves drop pod melta with an allied tig/cent star and wave serpent spam. Whenever I try to get a game in that isn't a tournament game everyone cries about whichever list I use. WMH seems to be more about competitive play. I looked at all the factions and ret is the only one I like the looks of enough to paint a whole army up. I've heard that all factions are competitive even at the highest levels but I'm wondering how true this is. If they are, can anyone point me to a good 50 point tournament list? I don't want to waste a bunch of money on models that won't be competitive like I did with 40k (I probably have about 3k points of SW that will never see the table because they aren't worth taking). Also I'm looking to do this without spending insane amounts of cash because I'm not selling my 40k armies. From what I understand, my list will be based on the HQ, caster, whatever you guys call them. Which casters are the top tier for ret or do they just excel at different things? Thanks for the help.

Welcome to WM you are gonna love it here.

First things first. Throw out everything you know, 40k wont help you here.

Casters are the key to your army, they determine the play style and units you want to take. There really are no "bad" units, just some that work better with different casters and other units/solo's etc.

Competitive Ret casters I believe are Vyros, and Rhan maybe Isseria but we shall see how she shakes out. Imperitas is the new character jack and from what I have seen its pretty fantastic.

Here is what I recommend and honestly most people will as well.

Get the battle box. Its $50 retail and you can find them all over for about $35. Get the soft cover rules book. DO NOT GET the "Forces of Ret" book or the deck. Download WarRoom and spend the $6 on the Ret deck. It gives you access to all the cards and rules reference. its all you will need. Oh and its a halfway decent army builder too.

http://www.forwardkommander.com/ is a fantastic list builder and is printable. I also use it as a model tracker.

Once you have your battle box put together play it, play it till you get bored with it. It will give you a chance to play with focus and get the turn phases down. Then add a unit / solo and play at 25pts. Learn how your caster interacts with units, how does their feat work. Then get to 35 pts and add scenario play. Throw in a different caster or 2 and see how it changes everything you do. After that jump to 50pts and your well on your way.

I was trying to avoid the battle box as I would prefer to have a 50 point list in mind and start building towards that from the beginning. I have a feeling I wouldn't end up using anything in the battle box in my final army. Thanks for the tip on the army book. What are some good sites for discount WM kits?


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I like the Vyros2, 2 aspis, 4-6 griffon and imperatus lists. Those are the coolest models to me and it seems to be a competitive list. How would a jack heavy list like that do in a tourney?

First off good call on giving Warmachine a try. I'm still really new having come over from 40k myself but the game is fantastically designed and I love how in depth your turns are and how important your actions and decisions are.

Anyway I've found the official forums to be a fantastic community with tons of info to help you wrap your head around things.

The stickied threads in each of the factions forums go into great detail of which models work best together and how to build a force around the models you like.

I'd start here (http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?16513-COUNCIL-OF-THE-NINE-VOICES-Overview-of-Retribution-of-Scyrah-Models-and-Tactics) and then start messing around with http://www.forwardkommander.com/ or Warroom when something looks appealing to you.

I am a competative player, you sound like the kind of competative player nobody wants to play. I'm sorry, its just how it is.

I will give you a run down. I play tournaments, usually 35/50pt Steamroller with up to 16 players, I have recently returned to wargaming this year and have come 5th, 4th and 3rd in my three tourneys. I play eHaley/Stormwall and N3mo eleap spam. These are two pretty powerful Cygnar builds.

You sound like you don't want to do anything but waac which contrary to popular belief isn't the WMH way . You will find many players want to make fun builds with interesting tactics, not be blown off the board without learning something because you want to take a netlist.

However, you will need a minimum of 2 lists and master up to 3. You may need to look in to character restrictions too, depending on the comp scene you have.

But as you are a waac player, there is. pVyros list out there which can do 1st turn caster kills, nobody will like you whatsoever, but its a viable list.

I am with darefsky on getting the battlebox to start out with. It's a great way to learn the rules and play the game, plus it will give you an idea if Ret are the faction for you.

Unlike WH/WH40K just getting a list off the net and then expecting it will work for you is probably a bad way to invest your money. A lot of people who take these lists to tournies have played them extensively, they have tweaked them, they understand the strengths and weaknesses of the lists, what is a good match-up, what is a bad match-up, order of activation, etc.

Plus you might buy all the models for a netlist and realize you either don't like the faction, the list doesn't fit your play style, and/or doesn't work in your local meta and suddenly you have invested time and money in a bunch of models which you don't want anymore.

I would start slowly and build up.

That's my 2pence

Toofast wrote:
I was trying to avoid the battle box as I would prefer to have a 50 point list in mind and start building towards that from the beginning. I have a feeling I wouldn't end up using anything in the battle box in my final army. Thanks for the tip on the army book. What are some good sites for discount WM kits?


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I like the Vyros2, 2 aspis, 4-6 griffon and imperatus lists. Those are the coolest models to me and it seems to be a competitive list. How would a jack heavy list like that do in a tourney?

It would loose, badly.

WMH is not about the army that you take, its about how you use it. If you expect to take a list of the net and just win with it you'll be sorely disappointed, there is a reason why those lists usually only excel when used by the people that created them and gobbo76 has already explained the why of it.

Take the advice that others here have given you, start small and build from there. If you are going to play in an established group, expect to loose and loose badly for the first few months and if you jump straight into 50 pts during those first few months you'll not only loose but chances are that you won't even understand the reasons why you lost because you'll be suffering from rules overload.

Having said all of that, if you just wan't a netlist then look up Ravyn's Snipe-Feat-Go list. That will give you exactly 1 win against someone that doesn't know what it does and probably is about as close to the traditional meaning of netlist as you'll get in WMH.

tigerstyle wrote:
I am a competative player, you sound like the kind of competative player nobody wants to play. I'm sorry, its just how it is.

I will give you a run down. I play tournaments, usually 35/50pt Steamroller with up to 16 players, I have recently returned to wargaming this year and have come 5th, 4th and 3rd in my three tourneys. I play eHaley/Stormwall and N3mo eleap spam. These are two pretty powerful Cygnar builds.

You sound like you don't want to do anything but waac which contrary to popular belief isn't the WMH way . You will find many players want to make fun builds with interesting tactics, not be blown off the board without learning something because you want to take a netlist.

However, you will need a minimum of 2 lists and master up to 3. You may need to look in to character restrictions too, depending on the comp scene you have.

But as you are a waac player, there is. pVyros list out there which can do 1st turn caster kills, nobody will like you whatsoever, but its a viable list.

Dude? What? The guy is asking for help with lists and is new to the game. He is coming with preconceived 40k notions Just like we all did, and you tear into him like that? Not cool man. Double not cool for playing eHaley/Stormwall.




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Oh and Discount Games Inc. is my favorite place to grab PP models online. Jay the owner runs Chain-Attack (podcast) and he won Iron Gauntlet last year. He sells at 35% off and free shipping over $50.

He had a few army bundles up to co-exit with PP's summer sale, his were better and they come with a strategy guide from the creator of the lists (all highend tournament winners).

http://www.discountgamesinc.com/bundles.html

Welcome to Warmachine

Let's see the most used casters in the WORLD MASTERS TOURNAMENT which is a 50 pt tournament for Ret are...

Vyros2 and Issyria
Rahn was used a bit too
Ossyran and Kaelyssa in a few lists

Vyros2 list is basically
1~2 Aspis
3~7 Griffons
Rest support

Issyria is a little more random but usually
Hyperion
Mage Hunter Strikeforce
Aiyana and Holt
Halbediers
Stormfall Archers

As far as the battlebox is concerned~
Kaelyssa wasn't used much but was used in WTC
Chimera and Manticore were also only used a small amount, but again were used
Griffon was spammed like crazy under Vyros, but is only seen with Vyros

Oh and as far as competitive casters go, in the 2013 tournament. The team that got highest with Ret was 2nd place and that guy used Ossyran and Rahn~.


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I personally suggest having a small amount of a lot of different things in WM/H

You will basically never used more than 1 or 2 Griffons in anything other than Vyros

That Vyros build caught my eye due to the play style (long chain finished by imperatus) and the fact that I love the Vyros model and all the war jack models. To gobbo and phantom, I understand I have to learn how to play the list to win with it. I still think I stand a far better chance of winning if I take a proven tournament list and learn how to play it than by starting with the battle box and buying random stuff. I'm not sure why you think that Vyros2 list is bad because 46% of the ret players at the last major tournament used some variation of that list and did very well with it. Using that list isn't rocket science, I'm pretty sure if I play 20-30 games with it and read what people have to say about it on the PP forum I will get the hang of it.

Calling me WAAC for taking good lists with the intention of actually winning an inherently COMPETITIVE game rather than just playing fluffhammer is a TFG statement. There's a difference between being WAAC (a cheater) and being competitive. If you haven't figured out how to make that distinction in your years of war gaming, I feel sorry for you but it reflects a lot more on you than it does on me.

@OP: Just want to throw this out there: While WM/H is billed as an environment that is more likely to have a competitive atmosphere... this is not always true.

My local meta is composed almost entirely of experimental lists that use sub-optimal units. The guys that come in with the net-lists typically roflstomp the locals and then find that nobody wants to play them anymore. YMMV of course.

I'd also like to second the "start with battlebox" approach. The netlists often skew heavily towards one portion of the game to the exclusion of others. Knowing all the options available is extremely important in tournament play, especially when your dice fail you. Starting with the battlebox will also give you ideas for your second list.

In a pinch, you won't really be out too much materials as you get 1x Griffon that you want, the heavy can add any parts from the Shayel heavy kit to make any dude on that chassis, and if you really want to repurpose the other light, you can buy him the right arms off the web-store in metal. Kylessa is basically free.

Thanks for the tips everyone. I believe I'm going to go with vyros, imp, griffon and aspis to start with a 15 point army and learn how they work together. I will expand into other lists later. Is the ret colossal worth taking? I love the model but don't see it being used in any lists. I'd hate to drop $100 on a shelf model.

Colossals as a whole tend to be good (Gargantuans are a bit underwhelming) due to the fact that they are innately focus efficient. To elaborate, when building a list in warmachine you typically have two resources you have to manage, points and focus. Points are a very tangible and constant resource, since you agree to play at a set value, and then try to build as close to it without going over. Focus is a bit of a different beast. Depending on your list, you have a certain amount of focus generation (typically through your warcaster and some support solos) and focus drains (warjacks, spells, and camping being the big three). However, unlike points, there isn't a clear mechanical system to prevent you from over-taxing yourself on focus. It is why one of the most common pieces of advice given to new players is not to load up on warjacks, as it is extremely easy to load a 50 point list full of warjacks only to have most of them do next to nothing due to the lack of focus. Certain casters get around this through various means (Vyros2, for example uses the spell Synergy with a bunch of light warjacks so that they can do a ton of damage without expending much focus, Karchev in Khador does it by having amazing battlegroup support spells, Syntherion in Convergence does it by combining the factions innate ability to 'recycle' focus on warjacks with the ability to upkeep spells for free, etc.) but in general there is a cap on how many warjacks you want to run based on how much focus each jack wants, what spells your warcaster wants to cast, and what they want to 'camp' their armour to. Once again, there are no hard and set rules to calculate this limit, but this is largely the reason that 1-3 jack lists are the rule rather than the exception.

Building off the above, Colossals tend to be good since they are innately focus efficient. The 'best' example of this is the Stormwall in Cygnar. The Stormwall can basically be thought of as two Defender warjacks with a bunch of bonuses, at a bit more than twice the cost. However, because it is a single 'jack instead of two of them, the Stormwall also requires less focus to run, meaning that a lot of warcasters that 'wanted' the ability to run an additional heavy but couldn't 'afford the focus cost' of a second one could get a Stormwall and effectively have the best of both worlds. The Stormwall is generally considered the most powerful Colossal in the game, but the others are all various flavours of good, if a bit more narrow in their applications. I have seen some Issyria lists run a Hyperion, alongside some alternative lists, but I don't follow the competitive meta-game closely enough to really provide further guidance.

I'd start with a caster that is considered top tier and that you think you will like. Then start building your list based on that caster. I started with a concept of a 35 point list in my head. And then as I built up towards that I modified it to what I wanted.

Once you learn the game and get up to 35 point lists or so then grab another caster and start building a list with them. You will use some of the same models, but you will need to get more as well. This will help grow your collection.

In the meantime grab anything else that you find helpful to either list and slowly build up two 50 points list. The nice thing about this game is other than a few skew lists you generally only need one of any given unit or model. So no need to buy 3 or 4 squads of marines and a bunch of drop pods, etc. So while the individual model price might be as much or more than GW, you buy a lot less.

If you really want to play at competitive levels more than just the LGS tourney then you will need to have at least 2 lists, probably 3. But by the time you get two lists and have played a bunch then you will have a much better idea of what you want.

I might also recommend the Privateer Press forums. There is some good stuff there for beginning play.

If you want competitive play check out Muse on Minis. Some of the better players in the world frequent that board and the discussions tend to be geared towards higher levels of competitive play.

My only advice is to not spend much at first until you nail down your playstyle. I wasted a lot of money on a Cygnar army that i just simply didn't like beyond looks and fluff. Also, do not get discouraged when you lose. The game is all about positioning and timing and being off by a miniscule amount can cost you the game.


Ouch, triple post.

A few things to add:
1) If you really are just starting, you can't go wrong with a battle box. The balance of WMH means that everything in the battlebox is useable at any points level.

2) Be careful about building up to a 50pt list with minimum investment Armies which work at 50pts don't necessarily work at 35, in the same way that a 1500pt list for 40k isn't just a 2000pt list missing a few units. Sometimes you need a critical mass, or a you might spend your 35pts getting the core of the 50pts together but it doesn't work because you don't have any of the interference/support units needed. Similarly, some lists can be far better at low points because the enemy can't always bring counters to it (eg, Colossals at 35 or even 25 points)

3) Don't try to netlist. There are a few that work very well for beginners, but you'll probably find yourself losing just as much with any list for your first handful of games as you get used to the mechanics, no matter how many world tournaments it has won.

4) If you really want to get in to competitive WMH, be aware that you'll need 2-3 lists that are quite varied. This is partly why you may as well just start with a battle box and build up a collection of whatever works at the lower points levels, because 99% sure you'll use those models somewhere in the three tournament lists.

Toofast wrote:
That Vyros build caught my eye due to the play style (long chain finished by imperatus) and the fact that I love the Vyros model and all the war jack models. To gobbo and phantom, I understand I have to learn how to play the list to win with it. I still think I stand a far better chance of winning if I take a proven tournament list and learn how to play it than by starting with the battle box and buying random stuff. I'm not sure why you think that Vyros2 list is bad because 46% of the ret players at the last major tournament used some variation of that list and did very well with it. Using that list isn't rocket science, I'm pretty sure if I play 20-30 games with it and read what people have to say about it on the PP forum I will get the hang of it.

Calling me WAAC for taking good lists with the intention of actually winning an inherently COMPETITIVE game rather than just playing fluffhammer is a TFG statement. There's a difference between being WAAC (a cheater) and being competitive. If you haven't figured out how to make that distinction in your years of war gaming, I feel sorry for you but it reflects a lot more on you than it does on me.

eVyros is popular for several reasons. The biggest is that he supports a playstyle that is unique within Ret which lets him cover some of the major holes that people usually build to exploit against Ret. Ret have fantastic infantry, but its all single wound infantry and so are all really squishy but Synergy + Griffons give us an ARM skew/quasi heavy infantry. For that exact reason he is a terrible starting caster, he supports a specific skew army build well but that's it.

Having started Ret recently I would highly recommend getting the Battlebox + 1 of the infantry units (Strike Force or Halberdiers probably) + a couple of solos (a MHA so you can learn how crazy one shotting casters with a 2pt solo is + an Arcanist) and maybe one other caster (anyone other than Issyria would be a good choice). This gives you a decent range of stuff and a couple of casters to try out and you can expand from there. You will find that basically everything in the faction is usable (Destors, the Scyir, the Heavy Rifle team and Nayl are the only contenders imo) but some units are only really viable with specific casters + other support models. This is why you want to start out small, get your head around what each caster uses + find your favourite caster and then get the stuff you need. Starting with a caster like Garryth and buying a Hyperion will only cause you headaches and a sad wallet.

Unless your name is Cygnar, I would rate Colossals as good enough to be played often. However not good enough that you feel you must take them every time.

Garguantuans however for the most part do not really work, unless its Mammoth.

Honestly, I think PP kinda of derps when it comes to BE and Gargs...

The idea of both work insanely well in Warmachine where FOCUS is a very rare and precious commodity, so finding units that are useful without the mechanic is key!

In Hordes, FURY needs to be made to function. Beasts are how you make them, thus you need beasts and a lot of them to create enough FURY each turn. Even more so it is stupid to have all your FURY generation on one big beast and risk running dry if they manage to kill it. So BE's that generate no FURY are inherently bad and Gargs who follow the other problem of putting eggs in 1 basket... It doesn't help either that Gargs are more heavily melee focused, thus have weaker guns. Well with the exception for Mammoth who was given decent guns.


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In summation, Hyperion is pretty good, however it is not a mandatory buy.

 Talamare wrote:
Unless your name is Cygnar, I would rate Colossals as good enough to be played often. However not good enough that you feel you must take them every time.

Garguantuans however for the most part do not really work, unless its Mammoth.

Honestly, I think PP kinda of derps when it comes to BE and Gargs...

The idea of both work insanely well in Warmachine where FOCUS is a very rare and precious commodity, so finding units that are useful without the mechanic is key!

In Hordes, FURY needs to be made to function. Beasts are how you make them, thus you need beasts and a lot of them to create enough FURY each turn. Even more so it is stupid to have all your FURY generation on one big beast and risk running dry if they manage to kill it. So BE's that generate no FURY are inherently bad and Gargs who follow the other problem of putting eggs in 1 basket... It doesn't help either that Gargs are more heavily melee focused, thus have weaker guns. Well with the exception for Mammoth who was given decent guns.
.

Its funny then that with Gargantuans being so bad and PP having derped so much in their development, that Chuck managed to win Hardcore in GenCon with a list with 2 Archangels in it...

Well a friend got the starter box and asked if I wanted to split it with him. He's taking khador so I have menoth. Of course the Menoth side doesn't come with anything actually run at competitive levels but I will try it out and see how I like the game. If I like it I will probably build a nice ret army. Also after looking at major tournament results, cryx and khador seem to be at the top of the heap with 5 major wins each, then legion with 4 and menoth with 3. The other factions have only won 1-2. Is this an accurate assessment of the current meta? Also, out of 236 menoth lists in tournaments this year, 0 lists took Exemplar cinerators as a unit choice. 84% of the lists included choir. Somehow I'm not seeing the wonderful internal and external balance compared to 40k here... Also after pricing armies, can anyone tell me how 2 50 point armies is any cheaper than an 1850 point 40k army?

pKreoss is far from useless. Lamentation, Purification (from memory), Knockdown feat, he's got some good game.

And no, it isn't really. You should watch the Chain Attack twitch/youtube stream, and you'll see these guys win with all the armies they play, be it Cygnar, Khador, Trolls, everyone.

Cinerators are an example of a unit that is much reviled. Choir are an amazing toolbox unit. It is almost like saying 'psykers are in a lot of eldar lists, I can't believe this internal balance'. Same with Trenchers for Cygnar. But recently I've been playing a Trencher army, and I beat an eCaine list which was a variation on the eCaine list that you see rocking up in tournaments around the world. Not that its the only way to run eCaine, it's just the current way that people like to run him. But I still won, with an army full of Trenchers (literally, only Trencher models, a caster and some jacks). The really good players, the absolute top, could probably replicate that sort of thing at those levels, with enough practice (and a useful freaking UA for the commandos, I mean come on how long have they been waiting, but that's just my complaining). But they don't, because they like the armies that they like.

The 2 50 pt armies being cheaper is super subjective. I could be making 2 armies that are almost identical, for example a Madrak list with a heap of Warders and Champs, and an eGrissel list with similar. Those lists will be buckets cheaper than an 1850 40K army, but still play in relatively unique ways because of the caster. Or I could be making 2 cygnar lists, one an eStryker list full of in faction storm infantry and cavalry, and one an eCaine army full of Mercs like forgeguard and boomhowlers. In that case, it could be more expensive than an 1850 list. Note that I haven't actually priced these exact examples out, they are just used to illustrate how lists can share models and retain their individuality through caster selection, or they can not share models, be individual that way, and cost more.

I know kreoss1 can be useful but the rest of the stuff doesn't seem to be run very much. By the numbers based on 236 lists:

Kreoss1 - 22 - 23.16%
Crusader - 1 - 0.42%
Vanquisher - 48 - 20.34% (could be useful but don't see it being run with harbinger or reclaimer which seem to be the top casters)
Repenter - 15 - 6.36%
Exemplar cinerators - 0

Compared to the top choices
Harbinger - 57 - 60.00%
Reckoner - 154 - 65.25%
Devout - 79 - 33.47%
Choir of Menoth - 199 - 84.32%

Toofast wrote:
Well a friend got the starter box and asked if I wanted to split it with him. He's taking khador so I have menoth. Of course the Menoth side doesn't come with anything actually run at competitive levels but I will try it out and see how I like the game. If I like it I will probably build a nice ret army. Also after looking at major tournament results, cryx and khador seem to be at the top of the heap with 5 major wins each, then legion with 4 and menoth with 3. The other factions have only won 1-2. Is this an accurate assessment of the current meta? Also, out of 236 menoth lists in tournaments this year, 0 lists took Exemplar cinerators as a unit choice. 84% of the lists included choir. Somehow I'm not seeing the wonderful internal and external balance compared to 40k here... Also after pricing armies, can anyone tell me how 2 50 point armies is any cheaper than an 1850 point 40k army?

Where are you getting those numbers from?

@Toofast: You are overly fixated on the statistical numbers. While they may give you a snapshot of what is currently popular in the meta, it is not the end-all-and-be-all of the game. Other than the cinerators, which I have no experience with, the others all have particular roles where they are very good:

Choir is seen all the time because they supply a straight buff to Menite warjacks at a low price.

Vanquisher: Fires a template weapon that, while low range, causes models hit to suffer the continuous effect fire - which is by itself, a medium power hit. This is good on its own, and very good when paired with casters who like fire. (eFeora especially).

Repenter: Everyone gives this guy a hard time, but with the choir, it turns its somewhat inaccurate medium power flamethrower into a passably accurate high power flamethrower. Combined with pSeverius's global buff (on top of the choir buff) - the flamethrower becomes a highly accurate, stupid powerful flamethrower. Flamethrowers also cause automatic continuous effect fire. This guy is also at the cheapest end of warjack cost and is stupidly durable for the cost. As the repenter is a warjack, it means his attacks are boostable - making this guy very credible removal of all things.

Crusader: He is very basic, and the points reflect it. Hits like a truck and costs very few points. Not the greatest due to its vanilla statline, but sometimes, quantity has a quality all its own.

Kreoss is an extremely toolbox caster and can take any opponent into deep waters IN SPITE of coming in the starter box. I'd venture that he's the second most versatile caster included in Warmachine starters other than Deneghra (who is top tier). He has above average focus count and his feat is extremely potent (knockdown all enemies within 14") and he has excellent denial ability with lamentation which causes double cost spells/upkeeps.

pKreoss is one of the better Menoth casters. He is a bit one dimensional and everyone knows what his trick is, but there are very few builds which counter it.

The typical Pop'n'drop list is something like the following.

pKreoss
-Reckoner
-Vanquisher
-Redeemer

2 vassals
Taryn di la Rhovissi(merc solo)

The rest is up to the player but this is the core.

Its based primarily around assassinating the enemy warcaster on Feat turn. Feat, everything shoots the knocked down caster. Taryn is there to stop models that are immune to knockdown from blocking LoS.

If the Pop'n'drop isn't going to work, the list can easily fall back on it being a decent attrition list as well. And pKreoss has a good all around spell list.

He's a simple but brutally effective caster.


The top Menoth casters are,

pKreoss
Kreoss3
Harbinger
pSeverius
eFeora

Not necessarily in that order.

You see other casters a lot too because almost everything can be made to work and because skill is the important decider. Thats why you shouldn't look at model usage in Masters tournaments to determine what is good. Masters players are highly skilled and often bring more niche choices because they can pull that caster/unit off and catch people off guard with less commonly seen units and casters.

High Reclaimer is a good caster, but he's very difficult to play properly. Everything in this game works, if you have the experience to run a particular unit. High Reclaimer is definitely an experienced player's caster.

Cinerators are truly a useless unit, they do exist in WMH! They are useless because their two main special rules basically require your opponent to mess up. And Bastions are the same cost but better in every way.

The two special rules Cinerators have are Flame Burst and Relentless Advance.

Relentless Advance requires your opponent to damage you to give you a speed buff. No opponent is going to do that, so you'll be stuck at Spd4 slogging up the field. In which case Bastions have a better threat range because they have reach(4+3+2 charge threat as opposed to 4+3+.5 charge threat)

Flame Burst require your opponent to bunch models up. Some units, those with shield wall, do bunch up, but any worthwhile player will realize that spreading out will serve him better than the +4 armor for being in shield wall will against pow12 weapon masters.

Bastions have Reach(probably the best ability in the game), Blessed attacks(ignoring buff spells is huge), and have Sanguine Bond(which can ensure all your Bastions survive to melee, even if its only with a couple boxes each)

As stated by others, this ain't 40K.

it takes more to win than a championship list. Skill and knowledge is much more important.

I liken this game much more to magic. There is a counter for everything and if you don't recognize your opponents list/combos then you will run into trouble.

There is also a steep learning curve. And if you want to play competitive tourneys it will be even steeper as you have to not only know your lists but everyone else's as well so you know which of your lists to drop for that game.

overall, if you are looking for a tight rule set and a tough tourney scene then Warmachine is probably your thing. But there is no easy way to get to the top. It is alot of work. Expect to put in alot more work than you would in 40K.

but once you do the game is much more satisfying.

Toofast wrote:
Well a friend got the starter box and asked if I wanted to split it with him. He's taking khador so I have menoth. Of course the Menoth side doesn't come with anything actually run at competitive levels but I will try it out and see how I like the game. If I like it I will probably build a nice ret army. Also after looking at major tournament results, cryx and khador seem to be at the top of the heap with 5 major wins each, then legion with 4 and menoth with 3. The other factions have only won 1-2. Is this an accurate assessment of the current meta? Also, out of 236 menoth lists in tournaments this year, 0 lists took Exemplar cinerators as a unit choice. 84% of the lists included choir. Somehow I'm not seeing the wonderful internal and external balance compared to 40k here... Also after pricing armies, can anyone tell me how 2 50 point armies is any cheaper than an 1850 point 40k army?

Here is the difference
Choir is a 2 point support unit, so every list can fit it in
Every army has 1 bad unit, for Menoth that usually ends up being Cinerator

I don't know the total result of all the tournaments this year, even if the numbers you posted are accurate. The ones from last year are different. Finally the faction's popularity matters, some of the best players have often switched factions for a while from their normal faction more popular faction and easily dominate tournament. Proving that it is not the army, its the player. So Cryx with their 5 wins is not impressive when they are often 2-4x more popular than other armies.

2, 50pt lists is about the same cost as a 1850 40k Army. However in the Tournament scenes, 50pt Tournaments are considered large tournament. I would relate 2500pt 40k to 50pt WM/H and 1850pt 40k to 35pt WM/H.

Baby steps... Your trying a full out sprint when you should be taking baby steps. Your going to lose and lose a lot at first. Don't expect the net list to carry you to the top.

 Talamare wrote:

Toofast wrote:
Well a friend got the starter box and asked if I wanted to split it with him. He's taking khador so I have menoth. Of course the Menoth side doesn't come with anything actually run at competitive levels but I will try it out and see how I like the game. If I like it I will probably build a nice ret army. Also after looking at major tournament results, cryx and khador seem to be at the top of the heap with 5 major wins each, then legion with 4 and menoth with 3. The other factions have only won 1-2. Is this an accurate assessment of the current meta? Also, out of 236 menoth lists in tournaments this year, 0 lists took Exemplar cinerators as a unit choice. 84% of the lists included choir. Somehow I'm not seeing the wonderful internal and external balance compared to 40k here... Also after pricing armies, can anyone tell me how 2 50 point armies is any cheaper than an 1850 point 40k army?

Here is the difference
Choir is a 2 point support unit, so every list can fit it in
Every army has 1 bad unit, for Menoth that usually ends up being Cinerator

I don't know the total result of all the tournaments this year, even if the numbers you posted are accurate. The ones from last year are different. Finally the faction's popularity matters, some of the best players have often switched factions for a while from their normal faction more popular faction and easily dominate tournament. Proving that it is not the army, its the player. So Cryx with their 5 wins is not impressive when they are often 2-4x more popular than other armies.

2, 50pt lists is about the same cost as a 1850 40k Army. However in the Tournament scenes, 50pt Tournaments are considered large tournament. I would relate 2500pt 40k to 50pt WM/H and 1850pt 40k to 35pt WM/H.

Indeed. Most high end competitive players have multiple factions and they'll switch it up depending on how they feel or what they're kicking on right now.

It also depends on the Steamroller missions for that year. Certain builds handle each new scenario packet better so things swing around.

But generally units that see no play are ones to avoid. But Cinerators aren't the worst unit Protectorate has. That goes to Cleansers and their UA.

Toofast wrote:Well a friend got the starter box and asked if I wanted to split it with him. He's taking khador so I have menoth. Of course the Menoth side doesn't come with anything actually run at competitive levels but I will try it out and see how I like the game. If I like it I will probably build a nice ret army. Also after looking at major tournament results, cryx and khador seem to be at the top of the heap with 5 major wins each, then legion with 4 and menoth with 3. The other factions have only won 1-2. Is this an accurate assessment of the current meta? Also, out of 236 menoth lists in tournaments this year, 0 lists took Exemplar cinerators as a unit choice. 84% of the lists included choir. Somehow I'm not seeing the wonderful internal and external balance compared to 40k here... Also after pricing armies, can anyone tell me how 2 50 point armies is any cheaper than an 1850 point 40k army?

most of the menoth stuff is quite useful, to be fair.

As to what's on top, it depends.

here are some german (i think) results:
http://www.tabletoptournaments.net/t3_armies.php?gid=7&cid=0&latest=1 its selecttion is limited, but shows some interesting numbers. average placement numbers are fairly close amongst all the factions (mercs/minions aside, but they're not real factions anyway). remember too that the tournament wins, tournament placings (top 3) cant be viewed in isolation - you need to understand the popularity of those factions too. cryx dominating the numbers of tourney wins, for example means very little when you realise that they are the most popular faction.
endgaming.net did a similar service, but its down at the moment.

tournament results tend to swing, and a lot of local results will vary. what doesnt vary, regardless of faction is that you tend to see the good players on top.

there are various tournament rankings up there on the internet (muse on minis are quite popular) and all show enough variation to suggest most factions see their fair share at the top table. Anecdotally, i've seen this too.

regarding your percentages, dont mistake popularity for effectiveness. you dont need the choir to be effective. but if you want to run a lot of jacks, they're a good shout. in any case, how about you play some games before you criticize it about internal, or external balance, instead of a bit of theory with no experience backing it up?

regarding pricing - the general argument is its cheaper to buy in to warmachine, but in the long run, it can get quite expensive. that said, there are 2 50pt list pairings that come in on the cheaper side, often times with common units appearing in both, and just a caster being different. Say, iron fangs, a spriggan and widowmakers. 24pts right there and it can form a core of your two lists.

I often see the anti-warmachine crowd stating things like "they say its a cheaper game, when it really isnt", when they're spreading misinformation; most warmachine players dont say that, instead they will say its cheaper to buy in to the game, its probably cheaper to get up to 50pts, but in the end, it ends up being quite pricey, especially with two list formats and wanting multiple options to pick your two lists from.

Toofast wrote:I know kreoss1 can be useful but the rest of the stuff doesn't seem to be run very much. By the numbers based on 236 lists:

the numbers say a lot less than you think they do. last year, a guy won the swedish masters with grayle and mohsar, two of the least popular circle casters. one of the best players in the UK - jamie Perkins - won a UK masters event with Kossites, and another guy won a US invitational with assault kommandos - both units that "the forums" decry, and sadly see less table time than iron fangs and winter guard. and yet, both players still played at the top table.

PhantomViper wrote:

Where are you getting those numbers from?

from his comments about the High reclaimer being as popular as he is, i suspect they're from the WTC lists, which themselves are skewed due to their team nature and wouldnt help form an accurate view of a faction - you wont see the proper breadth of choice of any faction in these "team" games - its just one of many formats PP run.