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Hi, I am trying to create a list which as much bang for it's buck as I can muster. The inclusion of Vypers is very deliberate as they have done well in every game I have ever played in a tournament.. they go in amongst 3 wave serpents down a flank and invariably survive (once, one died) and so they make up for the lack of shuriken catapults on the wave serpents

1 SpiritSeer 70
10 Defender Guardians 90
- Wave Serpent 135 Holofields(15), Scatter Laser(5)
10 Defender Guardians 90
- Wave Serpent 135 Holofields(15), Scatter Laser(5)
5 Fire Dragons 110
- Wave Serpent 135 Holofields(15), Scatter Laser(5)
5 Wraithguard 160
- Wave Serpent 145 Holofields(15), Scatter Laser(5), ShurikenCanon(10)
1 Fire Prism 140 Holofields(15)
1 Fire Prism 140 Holofields(15)
1 Wraithknight 240
3 Vypers 210 Scanon(10), Scatter Laser(10)
1800


Just wondering if anyone had any pointers / advice?

Personally I don't like the Vypers. They have far less damage output than say, 3 Warwalkers who, for the same points cost as the vypers, can take Bright Lances, Star Cannons, or Scatter Lasers depending on your fancy. The War Walkers also have Battle Focus, Scout(and therefore Outflank) as well as an Invulnerable save. They are also shooting twice as much as the Vypers.

Besides that, your list looks like it would struggle against Necrons. They have the durability to absorb your shooting, and the Tesla can wreck your serpents quickly. My advice for that is try to play the range game, and have your Wraithknight ready to pounce. You have better range with the Serpent Shields, Fire Prisms, and Wraithknight than anything Necrons can bring.

All in all, not a bad list! I think if you swap out the Vypers you'll be good to go

I agree swap the vypers. Have you looked at warp spiders? They're never a bad investment.

Also I'd consider putting shuri cannons on all your serpents just for that extra twin linked dakka.

Fantome wrote:
I agree swap the vypers. Have you looked at warp spiders? They're never a bad investment.

Also I'd consider putting shuri cannons on all your serpents just for that extra twin linked dakka.

Agreed. If you want some Dakka that can keep pace with the Serpents, Warp Spiders are the best possible option. You can get a full squad for the cost of the vypers(I would recommend 2 5man squads tho). The Warp Spiders are also harder to kill because they can constantly duck behind LOS block terrain.

As for the Shuriken Cannons, I actually never run my Serpents with them. They are great if:
A) You moved 6" or less
-This doesn't happen often with serpents...

B)The Target is within 24"
-The short range of the shuri cannon is the main reason why I don't take it. And it makes the serpents, which are already expensive, even more so.


The choice is obviously entirely yours, and I have found that Shuriken cannons are a 50/50 roughly in terms of who uses them and who doesn't

I agree with all of the previous statements.

in addition to:

Do you really need the fire dragons AND wraithguard doing the same job? You could do one of two things in this situation.

Use points from removing vipers to give the guard d-scythes, or drop the dragons for a unit of dire avengers and that would give you enough points for a jetbike squad.

I like it. The vypers really bring the dakka but really hate the dakka as well, to be fair Dakka also seems to hate the vypers. Starcannons give you a lot less hits but let you threaten different unit types such as riptides, dreadknights and terminators. But if you are going for str 6 spam you are better off with scatter lasers. But in that case you are actually better off with warp spiders.

About the fire prisms. I've only ever used 1 at a time, I feel like they can be hit and miss. They definitely keep your opponents infantry in check, making sure they stay in cover. The lance shot is really good but it's too bad that you only get 1 shot and its vulnerable to poor rolling. I've 1-shotted a leman russ or two with mine buts its kind of rare, you need to roll 3+ > 4+ > 5+ to one shot blow up pretty much anything on the ground without a cover save. That is an 11.11% chance btw. Double if you have 2 prisms.

Wraithknight is solid. I just ran mine with the suncannon + scatter shield and a jetseer with wraithforge stone and it worked out really well for me, he was super hard to kill. It was not a tournament setting though so not sure if this applies.

I vote +1 for the shuriken cannons on the wave serpents. often enough I will shoot the shuriken cannons and kill whatever vehicle I'm shooting at before firing off the serpent shield. The shield then saves me from a pen the next turn, game changer! Also in my area we ruled that the shield is not a gun but a gun-like effect from deactivating the shields. And therefore does not counts as one of the two weapons you are allowed to fire when moving over 6". It makes sense too because it's not like it's aimed or anything, the pilot pushes a button and the shield hits everything in front of it (it was also said that it should be a beam weapon but w.e eldar don't get beams).

Also +1 for d-scythes. Although your wraithguard are probably better or at par at tank hunting than the fire dragons (due to re-rolling 1s to hit) they are more expensive and aren't as resilient as you would like to think. They die to pie plate battle cannon shots just as easily as guardians do. D-scythes are amazing though. If their serpent doesn't get shot down then they can annihilate any unit in the game barring TWC and other 3++/4++ units. They are also decent at killing mcs if you are feeling lucky

I'd stick with the basic knight load out, the suncannon is amazing, but if your opponent has ever read these forums he will immediately go with a 2" spread for his units negating the suncannon entirely. Basically your opponent can make those small blasts hit one guy, which means you just threw 60 points down the toilet.

As for the Vypers, yes, Warp Spiders are much better and right from the codex, if forge world is allowed, hornets are basically the same point but a billion times better. Much more durable, and much more potent, double pulse lasers is dakka.

the problem isn't that shuriken canons aren't brilliant (they are) but that the list is heavily optimised and so full of compromise. I do agree that the wraithguard and fire dragons have similar roles, and I do also think that the fire prisms are not "reliable" but they are cheap, and wriathguard and fire dragons plus the option of wrarithknight and fire prisms means that I should be able to wipe 2 AV14's (or equivalent necrons) off the board per turn

I do think this list lacks str 8 weapons (like pulse lasers and bright lances) and my original list had falcons with bright lances rather than fire prisms but they are simply more expensive, and this list has str 10 to make up for it.

D-Sythes are less of a complication: while "good" they simply do not do anything well enough outside of volume str6/7 in my experience of using them str4 is just too low. Not every army is toughness 3. I have seen dsythes be neither good against equal points of terminators (the d-sythes had two shots, because they deployed then they were charged) yet only one terminator died.. so I am slightly biased against d-sychthes .. (i.e. they are expensive)

Warp spiders seem to be getting a lot of plus points but I have 20 of them (painted) and I use them a lot and they simply aren't up to assaulting aggressively they are an harassment unit once the big hit has come and I decided (tho they are my fave unit in the codex, if not the whole of 40k) that 11 of them is not as good as 3 vypers at aggression. Especially 3 Vypers that are not a unit.

also while the warwalkers are similar it is a Heavy slot that is not available


when I have used Vypers they have always done incredibly well.. they run in and amongst the 4 wave serpents and I can tell you now they *never* get shot at, it's too illogical - all the guns that hurt vypers hurt wave serpents too - even if the wave serpents and vypers didn't pretty much obliterate almost everything that can hurt them and the extra target flexibility is really useful.

Sometimes you just like a unit and they work well for you, I guess that's you and vypers. If you haven't read This Article you should check it out. It's an interesting read for sure.

thanks, and while I am not offended in any way I am not sure "they work well for me" because of any inherent bias on my part.. they are one of the few models I think that come into their own in play.. I own every single thing ever made for Eldar in squads of at least 10 and have tried many combos, and they are not as good as war walkers simply because of movement and jink.. (in fact war walker need star engines in squads of 2 to be worth it in my opinion) I liked the article and he was definitely basing his opinion on real life experience rather than just guessing but he was wrong about the Shuriken Catapult/Scatter Laser combo - (my choice) because they are synergistic on strength and twin link the canon which actually makes it *better* than a scatter laser because of the rend probability. additionally as a digression: I would never take star canon in a million years. (for the same reason of synergy)

but I appreciate the love warp spiders have but they are just too random: I have lost entire squads because they rolled a 3 in the assault phase move. Not a gamble worth 190 points.

I cannot stress this enough (this author mentions it) for some odd reason people do not shoot vypers.. I don't know if it's there reputation or the fact they look innocent.. but I can assure you people don't - even good / great players don't - they are not worth bolter firing even because you need two 6's to down one and they are not worth high ap shooting because there are higher value targets abroad. People perpetually "leave them 'til next turn" (perhaps thinking to try later) and never get round to them

ConanMan wrote:
thanks, and while I am not offended in any way I am not sure "they work well for me" because of any inherent bias on my part.. they are one of the few models I think that come into their own in play.. I own every single thing ever made for Eldar in squads of at least 10 and have tried many combos, and they are not as good as war walkers simply because of movement and jink.. (in fact war walker need star engines in squads of 2 to be worth it in my opinion) I liked the article and he was definitely basing his opinion on real life experience rather than just guessing but he was wrong about the Shuriken Catapult/Scatter Laser combo - (my choice) because they are synergistic on strength and twin link the canon which actually makes it *better* than a scatter laser because of the rend probability. additionally as a digression: I would never take star canon in a million years. (for the same reason of synergy)

but I appreciate the love warp spiders have but they are just too random: I have lost entire squads because they rolled a 3 in the assault phase move. Not a gamble worth 190 points.

I cannot stress this enough (this author mentions it) for some odd reason people do not shoot vypers.. I don't know if it's there reputation or the fact they look innocent.. but I can assure you people don't - even good / great players don't - they are not worth bolter firing even because you need two 6's to down one and they are not worth high ap shooting because there are higher value targets abroad. People perpetually "leave them 'til next turn" (perhaps thinking to try later) and never get round to them

That is because vypers are bad.. when you have a unit so bad people dont even bother to shoot at it, it should tell you something about the unit you're playing.

Warp spiders dont get shot at because if you are good with them it is impossible to shoot them. They do a ton of damage.. str 7 vs vehicles,str 6 with mono vs troops, 2 shots each, 5 from the exarch. Hitting on 3's or 2's with exarch and rerolling. a squad of 10 will lay down the hurt crippling a unit and then running away.