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Made in us
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe





Ireland

Recently, on a Facebook group dedicated to showing off GW models, a member posted some pictures of sexually explicit conversions he had made. One of them was a Land Raider with stripper cages instead of side sponsons. I commented that this was offensive, but the general consensus amongst the commenters was that it wasn't. How do you feel about this? Would you feel comfortable walking into a hobby shop while someone showed off the blood covered strippers they had made?

The conversation went as follows...

Me: The technical skills are great, but then he has to add naked women to it. What's the point? This is why people think tabletop gamers are creepy basement dwellers. They go into shops and see stuff like this.

Him: Because I like it. I play a Debauchery themed army. Debauchery is a death metal band. Also I find it funny that you have no problem with blood, skulls, and gore, but you find nudity to be "creepy." Some double standards there?

Me: Sorry, I should have said sexist. The rest is quite obviously tongue in cheek, it's a silly game and a silly universe. But you are using women (in enslaved positions) as an accessory to this. Women are far too often shown as accessories in fiction, art, and real life, and you are encouraging this. However, while I don't have a problem with the tongue in cheek violence, your sexualisation of the blood and gore is just downright creepy.

Him: No, not at all. Strippers are not enslaved. Do they look enslaved to you?Warhammer hast tons of half naked guys covered in blood holding a weapon, but if I got a female in the same position it is sexist?
No sorry, it is your argument that is sexist.

Other: A lady in summer-ish beachwear and a girl with naked boobies and a chainsaw do not scream slavery to me to be honest..., I think you reaction to this particular model is a bit overreacted. I agree that the depiction of women in art etc is maybe not always as nice, but don't go crazy on this guy because of that, it's just not fair. I am a woman too and I just had to laugh a bit because of this model, I don't feel offended by this at all. I laughed my ass of because of the red river-thingy, because it maybe depicts the fear guys have of women's periods XD

Me: What do you mean not enslaved, in the Land Raider picture, they are literally in cages. The half naked men you speak of are not in sexualized poses, but your women are.

Anyway, just because the men and the women are both scantily clad does not make you an advocate of equality, because there is not a history of men being oppressed due to sexuality and sexual roles the way there is for women (disclaimer: not to say that it doesn't exist but it exists mostly non-hetero men and in far less numbers than it does for women).

Regardless of all the above, you are still creating a bad impression for the wargaming and modeling community, and discouraging new people, especially women, from taking part in this great hobby.


I find it hard to believe that so many people think this is okay. I'm honestly disturbed by it. I imagine some slimy dude jacking off as he paints the breasts. People like this are bad for the whole community. I understand that gaming communities often accept less "cool" people who are on the fringe of society, people who aren't as readily accepted into other groups, and that is fantastic, but that doesn't mean we have to accept all behaviour. What do you think?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Should put naked men in the cages and see what the response is.

I feel like women are already discouraged to join this hobby...

...but regardless adding sexuality to the game generally doesn't help get people interested as the game isn't about sex, its about toy models made from plastic/resin/metal/etc firing pretend missiles at people shooting brain bullets at them.

Much like adding politics or real world nonsense, like israeli army IG or nazi army IG, or taliban IG, no one wants to see that.

   
Made in gb
Leaping Khawarij




The Boneyard

Unfortunately without a picture of the offending article, its hard to comment on it. If its done thematically I honestly don't see a problem with it. However if its the only thing in the army themed as such It might be a little odd to put it politely.

I've only really been offended by one thing in painting and that was a KKK themed Redemptionist warband.

I own one of the limited run topless dark Eldar prisoners but I've never used it as It doesn't fit in any army i have at the moment

   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

It's as equally distasteful and rather silly as a band named "Debauchery". There should be a word for people who try too hard to be scary and alternative and just end up being extremely silly, which is true for most death metal bands. This word could be applied to songs that have lyrics about landslides of butchered baby parts and that sort of thing (look up Cannibal Corpse lyrics if you want to be entertained). It doesn't have any of the intended effect, it's just stupid.

In short, it'd make me think of the person as a bit of a creep.

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Incorporating Wet-Blending





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Without seeing it I struggle to comment.



 
   
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Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

It's probably this.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Art is often controversial, and not for everyone. Personally I would never criticize anyone for their artistic stance.
   
Made in us
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe





Ireland

Yes Frozen Ocean, that is it. He also has an equally distasteful Lord of Skulls/Knight which I am in the process of uploading. Unfortunately I'm on mobile using an awful mobile internet provider (TIM) so this could take a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes Frozen Ocean, that is it. He also has an equally distasteful Lord of Skulls/Knight which I am in the process of uploading. Unfortunately I'm on mobile using an awful mobile internet provider (TIM) so this could take a while.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/19 15:52:26


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It's probably this.


That is a pretty tame implementation of a death metal design out of 'heavy metal' or something like that. Some people like that stuff, some people don't. I think if I am going to put my judgmental hat on, Daemonettes are way more offensive to the casual observer. And some people will find any form of naked breast on what is perceived to be a children's toy offensive.

I don't see anything sexually explicit though. Maybe you don't know what that term means? Sexually explicit usually means 'sex acts' like penetration and such.

Sexually explicit material" as that term is used in this section means any pictorial material displaying direct physical stimulation of unclothed genitals, masturbation, sodomy (i.e. bestiality or oral or anal intercourse), flagellation or torture in the context of a sexual relationship, or emphasizing the depiction of adult human genitals: PROVIDED HOWEVER, That works of art or of anthropological significance shall not be deemed to be within the foregoing definition.


I would say it is NSFW, and it is nude... but none of it is what you describe or sexually explicit. Such descriptions are saved for 'KD: demon wetnurses' but that is a different discussion.

Since nothing there is any worse than the stock models GW releases, and this is pretty tame, seems like people are gonna dislike 40k as a whole way before they hate this one model. Claiming his model is creating a bad impression... GW's chaos god with satantic influences which involve one which is basically the sex/rape/S&M god does that already. If someone is gonna be offended, they will be plenty offended by the stock models and source material before they even see a bloody landraider with strippers on it.

Edit: I mean, their new release of dark Eldar is based around the concept of 'don't be taken alive' because they will torture, disembowel and rape you. That is the slogan. So if someone is gonna be offended, there is plenty to offend people.

Edit 2: And it is also pretty Heterosexist to basically determine what people should be offended by and assume all women everywhere would be offended by that and that women are not as multifaceted as men in their tastes. And death metal is a thing, Gwar just got a female lead singer. Is she going to cause women to dislike death metal? By assuming there are two analog points of view on sexuality and anything which goes against those views and might offend all women is where problems happen.

If you don't want to be associated with such things, pick another hobby with cleaner themes, or pick different friends who won't judge you by association and realize while they may not like everything, different people like different things. If you really are 'worried' about how women view your hobby, especially 40k, then the problem is with you since 40k is hardly defensible as a 'clean-themed' universe.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/19 16:09:42


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That's actually a pretty cool model, lol who'd a thought of something like that.

Something straight out of the 80's if you ask me

   
Made in us
Raging Ravener




All over the place

I think you are being WAY too sensitive on the subject. It shouldn't offend anyone. The only exception to this would be parents bringing their younger children around, which this would obviously be inappropriate for. Aside from that one case, I imagine anyone that get offended by things like this as a frumpy old bat that needs to fan herself to keep from fainting whenever a victorias secret commercial comes on TV.

I don't imagine anyone painting the models with sweaty palms or anything. Its a aesthetic decision that quite frankly fits in reasonably well with the fluff of Chaos and the story he has come up with for his army.

And as for alienating female to the game, I doubt VERY highly that women are more put off by the occasional boob on a tiny plastic model versus the hordes of socially awkward/inept guys that tend to play these games that have to break out the inhalers as soon as they are within the same room as a female. Yeah I know we aren't ALL like that but I can say with confidence that almost none of you can say that there isnt a minimum of 1 creepy dude at your FLGS. THAT is what puts people off about the game. The people. Not the models.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

calamarialldayerrday wrote: I'm honestly disturbed by it. I imagine some slimy dude jacking off as he paints the breasts.

That's a problem with your imagination, then.

Saying that the person in question is intentionally promoting the degradation of women would be like saying that people intentionally promote violent crime because they modelled their minis with guns and knives, or that they want someone's immortal soul to literally burn alive for the remainder of all eternity when they say "damned teenager".

The only thing people intend is what people intend. If you're reading more into it, then it's YOU reading more into it. People shouldn't be required to run around with a copy of their artist statement every time someone chooses to take offense to something they've created.


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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator





Pittsburgh, PA, USA

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I find it hard to believe that so many people think this is okay. I'm honestly disturbed by it. I imagine some slimy dude jacking off as he paints the breasts. People like this are bad for the whole community. I understand that gaming communities often accept less "cool" people who are on the fringe of society, people who aren't as readily accepted into other groups, and that is fantastic, but that doesn't mean we have to accept all behaviour. What do you think?


You're entitled to an opinion on someone else's work, but I find it slightly bizarre that you make the leap from an explicit mini to some guy using it as masturbation fuel. Freud might have something to say about that Unfortunately, if you look for things on the Internet to get offended about, you'll miss a lot of the good stuff. It's best just to click "Next" and move on. I've never seen anyone win a morality discussion, so why bother?

   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

the_Armyman wrote: I find it slightly bizarre that you make the leap from an explicit mini to some guy using it as masturbation fuel. Freud might have something to say about that

Yeah, it seems that a person believing that people are sexually uncontrollable around toy soldiers says more about the person than about the people with the toy soldiers.


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Bournemouth, UK

It's a model based on the 40k Universe and although GW like to target kids under 16, the fluff is grim and dark. This model is awesome and fits right in with it.

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Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

I think there are genuine tragedies in this world, and people being exploited for commercial gain and whatnot, this ain't one of them.

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
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Never Forget Isstvan!





Chicago

The oversensitiveness is real OP

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Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

Do I find it kind of crass and tasteless? Yes.

Do I find it so offensive that I want it banished? No.

To me, it just is kinda juvenile. Not anything I'd want to put out on a table and say "yeah check that out".

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





SoCal

I do find it offensive, but as above, I don't want it banished.

Some people and groups try a little too hard.

Oversensitiveness is an issue, but so is a complete lack of such, which is one of the things that wargamers get stereotyped as. In this case, with good reason.

I'm also an artist, but I would still criticize someone for their artistic stance, even if I would still consider random crass stuff as art. Because frankly, there's a lot of really gakky art out there that has every right to exist.

   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Yeah, I think you are being way too sensitive. This is honestly pretty tame. You see far more sexist stuff on most other forms of entertainment.

Also, really, I have to agree with the dude on the violence vs sex double standard thing. He is right; society does have a double standard there. And the game - and your avatar! - is extremely explicit when it comes to violence. Literal rivers of blood, huge piles of skulls, limbs being hacked - sorry, chainsawed - off, an entire species that literally lives on inflicting as much pain and torture as they can! And you simply brush that off as "tongue in cheek"? If that stuff doesn't turn people away who are looking for wholesome fun, what on earth makes you think a couple of nude miniature women are going to?

Also, really:

I'm honestly disturbed by it. I imagine some slimy dude jacking off as he paints the breasts.


If it bothers you so much, stop thinking about it.

People like this are bad for the whole community.


People who judge an entire community based on a single person aren't worth listening to.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





It depends on the context of your gaming environment.

With a group of mature (or not so much ) adult males? Sure, no problem. Its all in good fun.

Around people who might possibly be offended or made uncomfortable, like females, younger players (<18) and parents? No, absolutely not.

Same thing goes for say, swearing.

I love the idea of the Angry Marines Chapter and would like to do an army one day, but I would never show that army off to say, a young kid, his parents, or someone who I know would be offended.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/19 16:55:20


 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

I'm struggling to see how the model that started the discussion can be termed "explicit?"

When I saw someone supply a link and clicked on it, I was expecting something slightly stronger than a couple of sort of pole dancers where most of the nudity is in fact implied.

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Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

Sometimes people have different definitions of things than you do, Azrael.

I personally do not find it "explicity" by my yardstick, but I do find it kinda low class and juvenile.

 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





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Now, I read 'sexually explicit' as something pornographic, i.e. two or more people 'making the beast with two backs' for want of another term.

This is crudely portrayed nudity, think in all honesty most people will find it a point somewhere between crap and amusing.

It would have been classed as 'sexually explicit' at some point in the 1960's in the developed/liberal parts of the world...

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I think there are genuine tragedies in this world, and people being exploited for commercial gain and whatnot, this ain't one of them.


Absolutely.

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Devon, UK

 curran12 wrote:
Sometimes people have different definitions of things than you do, Azrael.

I personally do not find it "explicity" by my yardstick, but I do find it kinda low class and juvenile.


The First Online Dictionary I Found On Google wrote:

adj.
1.
a. Fully and clearly expressed; leaving nothing implied.
b. Fully and clearly defined or formulated: "generalizations that are powerful, precise, and explicit" (Frederick Turner).
2. Forthright and unreserved in expression: They were explicit in their criticism.
3.
a. Readily observable: an explicit sign of trouble.
b. Describing or portraying nudity or sexual activity in graphic detail.


They may have different definitions, but they're wrong definitions.

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Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Ironically most women I know think stuff like this is funny, slightly wierd, perhaps intersting or amusing but seldom have any real issues with little soldiers being nude - male or female.

The model in question is cool - not sure about Korne worshipers keeping women in cages - more likely to be Word Bearers or Slaanesh or Tzeentch - I could see various heads stuck all over the place being more Khorne.

The imagery of the model would very well with Dark Eldar - indeed just picked up some female prisoners and considering the same thing type of display on a Raider - likely with a female Archon based on the Coven Throne. I'll see if there is some male ones to go along with them - after all the Dark Eldar are no bothered which sex filfthy Monkeigh are - they are just animals / things to torment

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/19 17:09:57


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This??

Spoiler:






Is that it? I are disappoint.

Someone should forward this image to Anita Sarkeesian. Her perspective should be interesting...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/19 17:19:22


 
   
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 Azreal13 wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
Sometimes people have different definitions of things than you do, Azrael.

I personally do not find it "explicity" by my yardstick, but I do find it kinda low class and juvenile.


The First Online Dictionary I Found On Google wrote:

a. Readily observable: an explicit sign of trouble.
b. Describing or portraying nudity or sexual activity in graphic detail.


They may have different definitions, but they're wrong definitions.


My bolding there - I don't think that many people would regard that as 'graphic detail'

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Does the OP have a problem with Sisters of Battle? After all they are sexualized. Power armour with breasts? Look at female soldiers now in the army, you don't see no breasts, but yet the SoB in miniatures and especially in artwork is sexualized big time. Skinny women with large breasts.

I would hate to see how you would react to GW old miniatures of demonettes.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

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 Pacific wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
Sometimes people have different definitions of things than you do, Azrael.

I personally do not find it "explicity" by my yardstick, but I do find it kinda low class and juvenile.


The First Online Dictionary I Found On Google wrote:

a. Readily observable: an explicit sign of trouble.
b. Describing or portraying nudity or sexual activity in graphic detail.


They may have different definitions, but they're wrong definitions.


My bolding there - I don't think that many people would regard that as 'graphic detail'


You can also call the daemonettes graphic in detail but no one complains about them. Or all the blood and gore that makes the game grimdark as graphic detail

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