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Just a quickie

Slaughtermaster, Level 4 (Lore of Heavens), Ironfist, Armour of Destiny, Crown of Command, Channeling Staff

Bruiser, Battle Standard Bearer, Heavy Armour, Tailsman of Endurance, Sword of Striking, Enchanted Shield

Butcher, Level 2 (Lore of Maw), Ironfist, Hellheart

- Guts (9), Fc, LoG, Standard of Discipline
- Bulls (3), Ironfist, Champion
- Bulls (3), Ironfist, Champion

- Sabretusk
- Sabretusk
- Leadbelchers (6)
- Leadbelchers (6)
- Maneaters (4), Brace of Ogre Pistols, Musician, Standard, Flame Banner (Scout, Poison)

Ironblaster

2400/2400

Bruiser is illegal. He's only allowed 50 points of magical items.

I'd also change the kit up on your level 4. Fencers Blades and Glittering scales is the way to go.

As for the special, you have nothing to deal with any combat blocks that make it through the leadbelchers, who are, and let's face it, not the most reliable. They're hitting on 5s at long range, with a random number of shots. And whilst you're at it, split the leadbelchers into 3 units of 4. Two units of 6 is overkill, and often results in redundant. expensive models.

Also, I'd swap the setup on the maneaters to stubborn,and immune to psych. 2 with pistols, 2 with great weapons. That way you have more shots, and a mop up combat block.

5+ ward is 30, sword is 15, shield is 5. It's legal.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
5+ ward is 30, sword is 15, shield is 5. It's legal.

Misread it. My bad.

To be fair, I'd still go great weapon, and 3+/4++.

+2 strength instead of +1 to hit? Okay

 therealsuperman wrote:
+2 strength instead of +1 to hit? Okay

You're generally striking last, and a 3+/4++ is FAR better than a 3+/5++.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 therealsuperman wrote:
+2 strength instead of +1 to hit? Okay

You're generally striking last, and a 3+/4++ is FAR better than a 3+/5++.

Seconded.

He would have a redundant shield, so I'll go Talisman of Preservation, Dragonbane Gem and GW, it's a 5+/4++.

I tried Fencers Blades, Glittering Scales before and didn't like it, took wounds from snipe spells and miscasts too easily, so I won't change that

2 units of 6 seem powerful, but you're right 3x4 is more versatile

The Maneaters all have pistols so I would loose shots giving GW to them, plus the pistols count as X hand weapons so it's a mass of strength 5, seeing as with scout they are designed to support, S5 seems enough, and poison because I'll be hitting on 6's anyway

When you say I have no special to deal with units that get passed the leadbelchers, I have my combat block bunkering my Heroes, do I need something else?

 therealsuperman wrote:
He would have a redundant shield, so I'll go Talisman of Preservation, Dragonbane Gem and GW, it's a 5+/4++.

I tried Fencers Blades, Glittering Scales before and didn't like it, took wounds from snipe spells and miscasts too easily, so I won't change that

2 units of 6 seem powerful, but you're right 3x4 is more versatile

The Maneaters all have pistols so I would loose shots giving GW to them, plus the pistols count as X hand weapons so it's a mass of strength 5, seeing as with scout they are designed to support, S5 seems enough, and poison because I'll be hitting on 6's anyway

When you say I have no special to deal with units that get passed the leadbelchers, I have my combat block bunkering my Heroes, do I need something else?

Try dropping a unit of bulls and make your unit of maneaters 6. 3 with pistols and 3 with greatweapons. it allows you to shoot as well as brings some nasty str7 to the mix

If your BSB is on combat, T5, and a 4++ ward should save him. Else he doesn't make way.

As for the level 4, the second best load out for him is fencers blades+armour of destiny. Do NOT stick the stubborn hat on him. Losing your stubborn General is far worse than losing your general.

 namiel wrote:

 therealsuperman wrote:
He would have a redundant shield, so I'll go Talisman of Preservation, Dragonbane Gem and GW, it's a 5+/4++.

I tried Fencers Blades, Glittering Scales before and didn't like it, took wounds from snipe spells and miscasts too easily, so I won't change that

2 units of 6 seem powerful, but you're right 3x4 is more versatile

The Maneaters all have pistols so I would loose shots giving GW to them, plus the pistols count as X hand weapons so it's a mass of strength 5, seeing as with scout they are designed to support, S5 seems enough, and poison because I'll be hitting on 6's anyway

When you say I have no special to deal with units that get passed the leadbelchers, I have my combat block bunkering my Heroes, do I need something else?

Try dropping a unit of bulls and make your unit of maneaters 6. 3 with pistols and 3 with greatweapons. it allows you to shoot as well as brings some nasty str7 to the mix

I like that, I think I'll try it!

I can't see why the stubborn crown is so bad, your right it's better too loose him without it than with because he's cheaper, but he gives stubborn in a unit that isn't the highest leadership

 therealsuperman wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 therealsuperman wrote:
He would have a redundant shield, so I'll go Talisman of Preservation, Dragonbane Gem and GW, it's a 5+/4++.

I tried Fencers Blades, Glittering Scales before and didn't like it, took wounds from snipe spells and miscasts too easily, so I won't change that

2 units of 6 seem powerful, but you're right 3x4 is more versatile

The Maneaters all have pistols so I would loose shots giving GW to them, plus the pistols count as X hand weapons so it's a mass of strength 5, seeing as with scout they are designed to support, S5 seems enough, and poison because I'll be hitting on 6's anyway

When you say I have no special to deal with units that get passed the leadbelchers, I have my combat block bunkering my Heroes, do I need something else?

Try dropping a unit of bulls and make your unit of maneaters 6. 3 with pistols and 3 with greatweapons. it allows you to shoot as well as brings some nasty str7 to the mix

I like that, I think I'll try it!

I can't see why the stubborn crown is so bad, your right it's better too loose him without it than with because he's cheaper, but he gives stubborn in a unit that isn't the highest leadership

Put your shooters up front and your bigguns in the back. The front rank will benifit from the extra attacks from the pistols and the guys in back will get 9 str 7 wacks.

The stubborn crown isnt bad, at all. If you deathstar is being taken out you have bigger problems than losing your general with a stubborn hat, it wont matter. Keeping a 700+ point block stubborn for points denial and pure hitting power is important.

If you've got 9 guts and two characters. You shouldn't be losing combat. Unless you're just bad. With the bruiser and slaughtermaster just blocking up models and a champ in the front rank, you will be winning. Even if you lose the characters. But, the issue is, if you lose the general, you can panic from a unit dying or from shooting. Aka the units biggest threats. Sticking the stubborn hat on a butcher means your opponent had to choose between one pip of LD, rerolls, or stubborn. And a sensible player will get rid of the stubborn first.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
. Aka the units biggest threats. Sticking the stubborn hat on a butcher means your opponent had to choose between one pip of LD, rerolls, or stubborn. And a sensible player will get rid of the stubborn first.

well that blew my mind, so put the hat on the butcher, grab the hellheart on the SM and trade the channel staff for OTS?

 therealsuperman wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
. Aka the units biggest threats. Sticking the stubborn hat on a butcher means your opponent had to choose between one pip of LD, rerolls, or stubborn. And a sensible player will get rid of the stubborn first.

well that blew my mind, so put the hat on the butcher, grab the hellheart on the SM and trade the channel staff for OTS?

That seems like a good plan.

The reasoning behind the stubborn, is that you can mitigate the LD and rerolls with static res. The stubborn just makes ogres pseudounbreakable. They won't lose much. And with the leadbelchers used properly, the threats that they have should be mitigated enough that the gutstar won't run.

I personally like MAW on the level 4 and a firebelly for the back up. That breathe is more than worth the cost difference, and a few useful magic missiles can go a long way. Ideally, you want flaming sword and fireball.
I'd only go with heavens if I had MR3 in the unit, and planned on dropping comets point blank.

-Matt

I wanted heavens to help with what avenger was saying for using leads property, rerolling 1's n 6's spells are brilliant in a shooting army

I don't like the Maw lore if I'm honest, I could loose the Hellheart for the Lodestone regardless?

I played this list recently. Heavens is good on a level 4. You use the comet to force the enemy to come to you.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I played this list recently. Heavens is good on a level 4. You use the comet to force the enemy to come to you.

You're running a gunline, you don't really need to force the opponent to come at you.
Having 1 unit re-roll 1's works a lot better on a death star then it goes on 6 lead belchers.
Against T3 targets at close range, it's doing ~2 or 3 extra wounds; which is what you'd get out of a fireball against the same T3 target. At long range, or vs higher toughness, the fireball is better.
Being able to boost up to 36" or 48" range (and boost to 2D6 or 3D6) is very nice for picking off those annoying fast cav untis.

-Matt

I played against the list. I should have stressed that. I don't play ogres.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
I played this list recently. Heavens is good on a level 4. You use the comet to force the enemy to come to you.

You're running a gunline, you don't really need to force the opponent to come at you.
Having 1 unit re-roll 1's works a lot better on a death star then it goes on 6 lead belchers.
Against T3 targets at close range, it's doing ~2 or 3 extra wounds; which is what you'd get out of a fireball against the same T3 target. At long range, or vs higher toughness, the fireball is better.
Being able to boost up to 36" or 48" range (and boost to 2D6 or 3D6) is very nice for picking off those annoying fast cav untis.

-Matt

I cant jusity loosing 3 units of leadbelchers for 1 hero who may or may not be left enough dice to cast fireball, my enemy let me have it and still share dice for my lvl 4... who would have to use MAW which Im not a fan of, apart from regen and stubborn its not a great lore. The template gives you a 1/6 chance of you killing yourself, 1+ strength 1+ toughness are 2 different hard to cast spells, instead of the beast easy to cast both bonus spell, a panic test....if your not immue and a low strength hit with no armour save

I'm not saying swap leads for the firebelly, I'd swap the butcher.
Lore of maw is a lot better than you're giving it credit for.
Stubborn is extremely useful for a gunline. It lets a 50 point redirecting speed bump tie up an opponent for multiple turns.
+1 toughness and regeneration lets you do a grinding gunfight.
The magic missile is 2D6 hits, which even at S2 is going to put a wound or two on anything; very useful against those 1+/2+ save targets.
+1 strength helps when you eventually see combat, which is again useful against those pesky high-save opponents that you can just shoot off the table.
The template isn't great, that's the spell I swap for the attribute.
Don't discount the lore attribute. +1 to cast/dispel the next spell and heal a wound on a very tough to kill caster is really good.

But if you don't like MAW, try double firebelly. You'll get way more damage output from 2 bellys than 1 heavens-master. You can squeeze 2 bruisers and 2 belly's into a 2400 point list. And, double breathe weapons is crazy good.

Lore of the maw is good. But the BS3 gunline needs heavens. I played the list. And without bubblevergence, the list has no ranged threat.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Lore of the maw is good. But the BS3 gunline needs heavens. I played the list. And without bubblevergence, the list has no ranged threat.

Harmonic just isn't that good, take a look at the math. It's 2 wounds extra for a unit of 6 leadbelchers. Bubble away; 12+ for 4 wounds is pretty sub-par. Sure you can roll horrible initially and make it look good, but on average it doesn't rate that good.
I can find better uses for ~300 points of wizard.

I do know a bit about gunline ogres, I run them; with 16 leadbelchers. And you want that 2nd cannon.

I actually love the Armor of Destiny+Ironfist combo, but with Gutmagic instead of Heavens.

I'd actually swap lores on your wizards. Lvl2 heavens is still very good as the best spell is the Signature spell and whatever the second ends up being is a bonus. Lore of the Maw is truly a great lore. Especially when you consider the lore attribute on top of what it does. Bubble +1T, +1Str, or Regeneration is ballbustingly good. And with a Lvl4 you are almost assured to get at least 2 of those.

That way you have 2 useful casters instead of 1 useful and one you're just paying a tax with.

I would also combine the 2 units of Ogres into a unit of 6 with Bellower and Banner. 3 Ogres isn't going to accomplish much beyond being easy points for your opponent.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I actually love the Armor of Destiny+Ironfist combo, but with Gutmagic instead of Heavens.

I'd actually swap lores on your wizards. Lvl2 heavens is still very good as the best spell is the Signature spell and whatever the second ends up being is a bonus. Lore of the Maw is truly a great lore. Especially when you consider the lore attribute on top of what it does. Bubble +1T, +1Str, or Regeneration is ballbustingly good. And with a Lvl4 you are almost assured to get at least 2 of those.

That way you have 2 useful casters instead of 1 useful and one you're just paying a tax with.

I would also combine the 2 units of Ogres into a unit of 6 with Bellower and Banner. 3 Ogres isn't going to accomplish much beyond being easy points for your opponent.

Actually, to get the best out of heavens, you need more spells. Sure, the sig is one of the best, but if you roll 2 of the 3 damages, you have no buffs, and vice versa. The level 4 heavens gives you versatility, in one of the best lores in the game. And whilst Gut magic is good, it's not quite in the top 3.

While Heavens is definitely better on a Lvl4, Gutmagic is worse on a Lvl2 than Heavens is on a Lvl2.

I'd rather have 2 mostly optimized wizards than one optimized and one that's struggling.

 Grey Templar wrote:
While Heavens is definitely better on a Lvl4, Gutmagic is worse on a Lvl2 than Heavens is on a Lvl2.

I'd rather have 2 mostly optimized wizards than one optimized and one that's struggling.

With a list like this, you don't cast with the level 2. Your level 4 eats the dice. Dropping comets to force people into short range, and then to keep them there.

I have experiance playing both heavens and maw with the level 4. It really depends on how it synergies with your playstyle. I run an all close combat ogre list the only shooting is one cannon and gnoblars. For this list maw greatly outweighs heaves but if your list is more focused on the shooting then for sure heaves is better. Trying to fit 3 casters in to add the firebelly is worth it. What do you hope to accomplish with your level 4?

Bumping up to 2500

Slaughtermaster, Level 4 (Lore of Heavens), Ironfist, Armour of Destiny, Power Stone, Sword of Striking, Other Tricksters Shard

Bruiser, Battle Standard Bearer, Heavy Armour, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield

Butcher, Level 2 (Lore of Maw), Ironfist, Crown of Command, Channeling Staff

- Guts (9), Fc, LoG, Standard of Discipline
- Bulls (3), Ironfist, Champion
- Bulls (3), Ironfist, Champion

- Sabretusk
- Sabretusk
- Leadbelchers, Musicain (5)
- Leadbelchers, Musicain (5)
- Maneaters (6), Brace of Ogre Pistols, Musician, Standard, Flame Banner (Scout, Poison) OR (Poison, Sniper)

Ironblaster

2500/2500