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Hello all. Just wondering what I should change in my list. And would blackguard work better then exeuctioners in this list?

LORD
SUPREME SORCERESS 185 290
Level 4 Wizard 35
Talisman of Preservation 45
Dispel Scroll 25
Law of Beasts/Life/Shadow

HERO
MASTER 70 163
Battle Standard Bearer 25
Sea Dragon Cloak 6
Cold One 12
Sword of Might 20
Charmed Shield 5
Dawnstone 25

CORE
DARKSHARDS 130
10 Darkshards 120
Musician 10

DARKSHARDS 130
10 Darkshards 120
Musician 10

DARKSHARDS 260
20 Darkshards 240
Musician 10
Standard Bearer 10

DARK RIDERS 110
5 Dark Riders 80
Musicians 10
5 Shields 5
5 Crossbows 15

DARK RIDERS 110
5 Dark Riders 80
Musicians 10
5 Shields 5
5 Crossbows 15

SPECIAL
COLD ONE KNIGHTS 315
9 Cold One knights 270
Dread Knight 10
Musician 10
Standard Bearer 10
Standard of Discipline 15

HAR GANETH EXECUTIONERS 393
29 Executioners 348
Driach Master 10
Musician 10
Standard Bearer 10
Banner of Swiftness 15

Repeater Bolt Thrower 70 70

Repeater Bolt Thrower 70 70

Repeater Bolt Thrower 70 70

RARE
DOOMFIRE WARLOCKS 125
5 Doomfire warlocks 125

KHARIBDYSS 160 160

In this case - with the COK, Reapers, and K-Beast providing armor-cracking ability - Black Guard are a better complement to what you have. Their volume of attacks and reliable rerolls makes them an excellent choice for chewing up softer troops, which saves your heavy hitters for taking on the heavy armor.

 Vulcan wrote:
In this case - with the COK, Reapers, and K-Beast providing armor-cracking ability - Black Guard are a better complement to what you have. Their volume of attacks and reliable rerolls makes them an excellent choice for chewing up softer troops, which saves your heavy hitters for taking on the heavy armor.

Cheers mate. Whats your thought about the list over all?

Not sure how much help I can give with this kind of list. I favor a MUCH more aggressive style - two big blocks (usually Executioners and Witches or, in a mounted list, COK, COC, and monsters) surrounded by a cloud of chaff.

You should still do well in the chaff battle - 40 Darkshards will sweep away enemy chaff pretty fast leaving your Dark Riders free to do their job. But if you're expecting the Darkshards to wipe out enemy combat blocks, you're going to be disappointed. Even 80 AP shots can only do so much at S3. Fortunately the COK, K-beast, and Black Guard should be able to handle most thing that can make it through the hail of fire, IF you are smart about using your Dark Riders and Warlocks to let only one enemy unit through at a time.

Thanks for the input Vulcan. I'm going to have a full Dark Elf army one day. With executioners, black guard ect.


But I'm a slow painter, as I don't get much free time to paint my own stuff.

 Vulcan wrote:
Not sure how much help I can give with this kind of list. I favor a MUCH more aggressive style - two big blocks (usually Executioners and Witches or, in a mounted list, COK, COC, and monsters) surrounded by a cloud of chaff.

This IS an aggressive army. If a combat block isn't in combat by T3, the game is lost.

I'd much prefer to see those darkshards in smaller units, that way they can do the old trick of marching up to protect flanks, without giving up too many points.

And it goes without saying that I look upon elf infantry with pure disdain, at this point, but Executioners are almost always a superior choice to black guard. They have less bad matchups and more favourable ones.

dark, I find your opinion of Dark Elves to be condescending, simplistic, and bordering on outright insulting - not to mention completely contrary to the opinions of the fine folk over at Druchii.net. Which is why I usually don't bother arguing with you; no point in bringing conflicting personalities into a generally polite gaming board.

However.

As a SUCCESSFUL DE general, I can safely tell you that DE infantry is NOT bad; in fact it is pretty excellent at what it does. And as a successful DE general, I do everything I can to make sure my infantry winds up in situations it CAN handle, and use my chaff to avoid situations it CAN'T handle. Which can be complicated, but isn't all that hard once you learn to think of it that way.

And while in general, I agree with you (uh-oh, the world might end!) that Executioners are superior to Black Guard, IN THIS CASE the Black Guard provide something he lacks in the list that Executioners won't provide - multiple attacks for clearing out hordes.

Witches would do it better, to be sure. But he specifically asked whether to use Black Guard instead of his Executioners (probably because he has the BG/Exe models and doesn't want to drop the rather stupendous amount of cash it would take to get a big unit of Witches), so I answered his question.

 Vulcan wrote:
dark, I find your opinion of Dark Elves to be condescending, simplistic, and bordering on outright insulting - not to mention completely contrary to the opinions of the fine folk over at Druchii.net. Which is why I usually don't bother arguing with you; no point in bringing conflicting personalities into a generally polite gaming board.

However.

As a SUCCESSFUL DE general, I can safely tell you that DE infantry is NOT bad; in fact it is pretty excellent at what it does. And as a successful DE general, I do everything I can to make sure my infantry winds up in situations it CAN handle, and use my chaff to avoid situations it CAN'T handle. Which can be complicated, but isn't all that hard once you learn to think of it that way.

And while in general, I agree with you (uh-oh, the world might end!) that Executioners are superior to Black Guard, IN THIS CASE the Black Guard provide something he lacks in the list that Executioners won't provide - multiple attacks for clearing out hordes.

Witches would do it better, to be sure. But he specifically asked whether to use Black Guard instead of his Executioners (probably because he has the BG/Exe models and doesn't want to drop the rather stupendous amount of cash it would take to get a big unit of Witches), so I answered his question.

The only reason I say that dark elf infantry are bad is because of the fact that fast cav are far superior.

Fast cav make all the better elf lists. And a fast cav list is a situation that no elf list can handle, I know this to be a fact.

I did say that it's how I find infantry, which is grounded in the UK tournament scene lists.

Vulcan. The only models i have bult in my dark elf army at the moment is 30 crossbows, 5 warlocks, caludron. I have a massive box with all the models new on sprue. I do have 30 witches I can add to the army iff i must. I have no issues ajusting the list and money isn't a real big factor for me. As I only have 2 armies and put allot of time and effort into them so money isn't no big deal.

If you guys have any suggestions of big adjustments to my list I'm all ears. I'm a painter before a gamer.

Dark elf fast cav is pretty hoss, yes.

Dark Riders are ASF S4 on the charge, 4+ save (there's literally NO reason to take them without shields), and for a slight extra price get 2 S3AP shots. And they're CORE!

Warlocks have 2 S4 ASF poison attacks, 6+/4++ saves, two very useful spells, a channel attempt, and near-immunity from miscasts... for only five points more than Dark Riders.

Both have one problem: Dealing with large blocks in straight up combat. You can do the 'Brolocks' build - five combat characters with 1+ saves fronting a unit of 10+ Warlocks - and it will handle blocks well... one at a time. It is vulnerable to '6' spells and - to a lesser extend due to fast-cav mobility - other standard anti-deathstar tactics. Beyond that, DE fast cav wins by avoiding major combats and picking off small enemy units for a 11/9 victory.

DE Infantry, on the other hand, will SHRED most combat blocks in one round. Witches will decimate any other infantry unit short of Ironbreakers/Chaos Chosen/other heavily armored or warded unit. Executioners will chop down even the heaviest normal cavalry, and are a credible threat to monstrous cavalry when frenzied (easily achievable with a 100-odd point Brewhag, or a 150ish point special character). Yes, they will suffer when facing ASF stuff, but that's why you shouldn't put Executioners into combat with ASF stuff.

Of course, by itself, DE infantry will have a struggle getting the combats it wants. This is why the best, most versatile DE armies use COMBINED ARMS to win. Fast cav, harpies, shades, darkshards, and even MSU infantry clear the way for the big blocks to get into the fights they want to see, and block the way for opponents the infantry does NOT want to fight.

As far as DE infantry not being able to deal with fast cav, that's only partially correct. Darkshards can deal with fast cav just fine. Most people run fast cav in unit of 5. 20 Darkshards reforming to shoot at a flanking unit of fast cav will hit 13 times, wound 6.5 times, and kill 4 Dark Riders or 3 Warlocks. What's left is now combat ineffective, even when it passes it's panic test.

In close combat, 5 warlocks against a block of Witches is hosed. Let's give the Warlocks the flank (which is not guaranteed against a competent DE player). Witches normally run 3 deep, with a Cauldron that is effectively 5 deep. So all the Warlocks get to fight... as does the Cauldron. Frenzied witches deliver 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.375 wounds, 1.64 dead. The cauldron crew drops another 4 attacks (2 hits, 1.5 wounds, .75 through) and the Hag (even without a magic weapon) does 4 attacks, 2.64 hits, 2.33 wounds, 1.66 dead. Total 4.05 dead warlocks. Yes, the warlocks will drop 10 attacks on the Witches (You could go after the cauldron, but with T6/4++ save it's not going to suffer much against the 4-6 attacks you can direct against it. The Hag is somewhat softer, but even she gets a 6+/5++ save. You'll get far better CR against the unit). They'll get 5 hits (plus 1.65 from the horses), and do 3 wounds (plus .84 from the horses)... and after the 5++ save the Witches loose roughly two of their number. So they CR is 2 dead Witches, plus flank, plus charge - +4. Witches have 4, plus two ranks, plus banner - +7. The surviving warlock needs a 4+ to not run for his life.

Needless to say, if the Warlocks don't get the flank, the larger number of Witches available to fight will wipe out the Warlocks with ease.

Of course the witches will pursue, which may be what you want in the first place. But it's not impossible for the Witches to wipe the Warlocks out entirely, especially if the hag has a magic weapon or a combat character is bunkering in there.

In short, saying DE infantry is worthless is... well, worthless.

The Brolock bus is a fast cav unit that beyond a "six spell" infantry has no way with dealing. By the time any infantry unit that worries it strikes, that unit is on double 1s and can't get through the 1+ wall.

Saying that the fast cav lists can only avoid combats is a false statement. There are several examples of dark rider deathstars. The characters aren't just a wall. At 96 points each, they're also chaff. And the peg characters, which are some of the strongest things in the book, are far more suited to supporting fast cav.

The warlock bus is one of the best lists the book can make, and tbh, there is no infantry list that I can't beat using it.

To kronicpsycho:

The stuff you have built so far suggests a shooting list. If you wanna go that route I recommend:
- shadow magic
- black guard (benefit more from mindrazor and cauldron than execs do)

More generally, I don't think cold ones are good character mounts. You can get to a 1+ armor without being mounted, and get more mobility from a dark steed than a cold one.

Ooops, I missed that. Yeah, you want the BSB on a Dark Steed. It saves you points and gives you significantly better mobility if you have to bail him out of the COK. He can then bunker in with the Dark Riders or Warlocks without slowing them down.

Although you'll want to give him some armor; in the OP you've got him riding around in his BVD's...

List was something I put together when the book first hit. I don't want to build all NY stuff and get wrecked tho so if people have any sujestions on changes more then welcome.


My original thought when wanting this list was shoot stuff redirect some stuff chop stuff with executioners.


Please note I'm not a serious gamer haven't really player since my skaven army which was about 1 year ago

Thanks in advanced to all that help.


Regards


James

So I should just change the core out or witches, and dark riders. and if i dont get black guard instead of executioners?

I find Black Guard and Witches to be pretty interchangeable, yes. 2 S4 attacks yield very similar results to 3 S3 poison attacks under most circumstances. Both falter against saves of 3+ or better. And the 5+ save of the BG is offset by the 30% fewer bodies they have per set point cost. So it really boils down to if you have enough points left in your special allocation to make a credible threat of Black Guard, or if you need to fill core allocation instead. Both fill the same role, shredding other units with medium-to-low saves.

However, even small units of Witches and BG can be useful in the chaff-clearing role. I routinely use a 'tirestrip' of ten Witches in front of my main blocks for close-in chaff clearing, portable cover against shooting, and frenzy-blocking. And when it's time for the main combat to begin, I throw the survivors into combat a turn ahead of the main blocks, where they do damage all out of proportion to the numbers before they die... and leave things clear for the main blocks to do their job.

(Why a 'tirestrip'? Because in this role, they do much the same thing as a 'roadblock', but rip up any unit that runs them over in the doing.)

I see thanks vulcan : )