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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Is competitive player hate prevalent in warmachine too? I'm really wanting to find a war game that competitive players and list are embraced. I basically want competitive play like Magic The Gathering except in war gaming form.
   
Made in us
Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

Warmachine players run the gamut just like magic and 40K players.

However, the one thing about warmachine is that skill is usually much more important than your list or deck. Yes there are good lists and bad lists, but even with a "good" list you aren't going to start winning based on the list alone.

Also, the ruleset for warmachine is very tight and clear. So in a competitive environment there are very few rules issues.

so in short, yes, there are a variety of levels of play for warmachine out there. And just like in Magic you will get people who complain about others. IMO, when you play games against others communicate ahead of time and let each other know what you expect.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

We definitely embrace the competitive attitude related to playing to win. Even "casual" warmachine players would, as far as list construction and rule knowledge, be more akin to competitive 40k players.

The playing field is basically much more level. Casual 40k players tend to derp around trying different lists for the heck of it. In warmachine, its the super competitive players who do that. Trying to find some unknown tech to get an edge. And smiling while they do it.

The game is 100% balanced around competitive play, so you really can't be hating on competitive players in warmachine. Because its basically everyone.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Oberleutnant





Honestly, the answer is entirely dependant on your location. Who plays in your area? They would be a better judge of the competative nature of your meta. Telling you about the 3-4 tournies that go down in a certain local won't do much good if all you can play against are the same 3 guys you play 40K against.

WM/H has a much smaller disparity between "good" and "bad" units and casters. Yes, some are better than others, but not so much that a competent player can't win with the lower side of the spectrum. Ability is much more tied to the amount of time you spend learning your list and less on the internet telling you the flavor of the week.








 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




ramman2004 wrote:
Is competitive player hate prevalent in warmachine too? I'm really wanting to find a war game that competitive players and list are embraced. I basically want competitive play like Magic The Gathering except in war gaming form.


Page 5. The ethos of warmachine. Read it, embrace it, live it.

Warmachine is not like 40k. 40k is a poorly designed game with a toxic, fractured and bitter player base, a lot of the time. There is an artificial divide fostered by these rubbish rules and entrenched positions between types of games And these styles of games. Tfg. Waac. Casual. Fluff bunny. Powergamers. So on.

Warmachine. It's a game. 40k has a lot of artificial divisions on what people feel you should be allowed to take. Because of reasons. Get it wrong, and you're ruining the game and a terrible human being to boot. Warmachine doesn't gave these artificial divides within the community. There is no 'fluffy', and no 'powergamer'. There is the same game for all. All defined by a single mission statement. Page 5.

So yes, you can play casually. You can also play competitively with no hang ups or nasty glances going your way. Often with the same list. Casual and competitive here is an attitude, not an army list.

However you play, just make sure you play like you got a pair.

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I feel the difference between 40k competitive player hate is due to 2 problems in 40k

1 - Bad Rules, to sneak advantages people intentionally misinterpret rules or intentionally abuse them
2 - Bad Balance, 40k has a common theme in which the slightly more expensive stuff, also happens to be slightly better on the tabletop.

So in WM/H it is definitely easier to constantly use competitive lists even in casual play


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in us
Big Fat Gospel of Menoth





The other side of the internet

It's not just competitive 40k that's divisive though, casual stuff can be a wedge too. Just mention ultramarines and your eardrums will burst from the hate screaming across the net. Dealing with the 40k fan base is exhausting and irritating from all of the petty dung they sling. I have yet to see ANY other game ferment such an attitude towards fellow players over something as simple as the color of your dudes.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

RAGE

Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

Overall my competitive warmachine experience has been rather positive. I can't say that for 40k.

Another thing I have noticed with 40k is that when you travel for tournaments and the TO doesn't have some document talking about "house rules" for various situations rules arguments tend to be common. Different small communities for 40k have different interpretations for certain rules interactions while other groups have different interpretations. So some situation pops up, like once for me it was when I was moving my DE raiders, since rotation doesn't count as movement you can get "free" movement by deploying the raiders sideways on turn 1 and rotating forward before moving. Everyone I knew locally knew about this trick and knew it worked, but my opponent thought I was cheating and fought me on it to the point where I started just pushing the raiders I had moved back a few inches. So after that my opponent seemed to double check me on everything I did, and I probably would have table flipped if I hadn't been winning.

Though the thing is it is possible my opponent came from a local group that had always played that way and when he saw me do something different he may have thought I was trying to pull a fast one even though I wasn't.

There was also once a guy locally who was in the actual Marines who moved around a lot who pointed this out once as well.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/07 13:56:20


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Surtur wrote:
I have yet to see ANY other game ferment such an attitude towards fellow players over something as simple as the color of your dudes.


Don't go to Mobile. The Swan hate is palpable.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Monstrous Master Moulder




Rust belt

To the OP. Just make the switch to warmachine and put all those 40k problems behind you. When I made the switch to warmachine last March it felt like the weight had be lifted of my shoulders.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

Also if the OP does want to play warmachine competitively biggest advice I can give is always make sure to communicate with your opponent while you are playing. Tell your opponent what you are doing before you start rolling dice or moving models. If a charge is going to be close use proxy bases to make sure everything is legit BEFORE you move the actual model.

Games of competitive warmachine I have played where me and my opponent are communicating like this tend to go rather smoothly.

Edit: Also for charges is the distance is going to be close for whether or not you make the charge, sometimes it is easier to go ahead and measure you full "threat", distance you can move plus melee range before you move the model to see if you can make it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/07 14:12:50


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Platuan4th wrote:
 Surtur wrote:
I have yet to see ANY other game ferment such an attitude towards fellow players over something as simple as the color of your dudes.


Don't go to Mobile. The Swan hate is palpable.


You sure its not just Haley hate?

Cause she and Denny are probably the only genuinely broken models in the game.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

 Grey Templar wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Surtur wrote:
I have yet to see ANY other game ferment such an attitude towards fellow players over something as simple as the color of your dudes.


Don't go to Mobile. The Swan hate is palpable.


You sure its not just Haley hate?

Cause she and Denny are probably the only genuinely broken models in the game.

Some of it is haley hate, other don't like Cygnar. It isn't nearly as bad as the ultramarine hate I saw in 40k though.
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





I actually like Haley and Denny. :(
Don't play 'em, but I do like them.
I was thinking about starting Cygnar but I like the fluff of Khador too much to pass them up.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The problem with pHaley is that Temporal Barrier is very strong and there is no possible work around for it besides Lamentation or Mage Blight. And only a few factions have those spells.

Combine it with her largeish control area and access to control area extension and you have a stupid combo.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 Grey Templar wrote:
The problem with pHaley is that Temporal Barrier is very strong and there is no possible work around for it besides Lamentation or Mage Blight. And only a few factions have those spells.

Combine it with her largeish control area and access to control area extension and you have a stupid combo.

Ah, that makes more sense now. Thanks for the explanation. I've yet to face her. I might change my tune once I do. (We don't have a lot of Cygnar players around here. One of the reasons I was thinking of starting them.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

In short, its not fun to face. Like almost 40k stupidness of not fun. Almost.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Blood Hawk wrote:

Some of it is haley hate, other don't like Cygnar. It isn't nearly as bad as the ultramarine hate I saw in 40k though.

I feel there is very little Cygnar hate around
Most people love Cygnar, just tired of every Cygnar player they see being Haley and Stormwall


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Or Caine.

It's not that Haley is overpowered - she's not. There are plenty ways of getting her, or breaking her game.

But she is extremely not fun to play against. She basically gives your opponent a huge turn where they control your army and dictate what you can do, both in terms of the, deciding your orders of activation, and the fact you have to sacrifice either movement or action on top of it. Back it up with an extremely useful toolbox spell list. Control casters Are defiantly a fun part of the game, but Haley is a severe, and poorly designed example of one. Any one, or even some of the above features? Fine. All of them combined pushes it to a level where yes, you can still beat her, but it's simply not an enjoyable experience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/07 20:53:13


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Saratoga Springs, NY

Nah, one of the things I don't like about Warmachine is that is is designed from the ground up as a balanced competitive game (isn't that a great complaint, eh?). Moreso that it is designed that way often to the exclusion of a lot of other things: non-existent campaign or narrative event rules, lack of any kind of variety in story driven scenarios (or any kind of variety whatsoever other than "35/50 point Steamroller" with the odd battlebox new player orientation thrown in) such a reliance on exact to the millimeter model placement that any kind of terrain other than squares of colored fabric isn't playable as designed.

Anyway, I would say that competitive players aren't looked down upon as much in warmachine because overall the game balance and level of competitiveness is much more even between options than it is in other games. That's one of the things the game was designed for, and it does that very well, although admittedly not perfectly, no game really does.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 01:21:06


Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!

BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. 
   
Made in us
Drakhun





Eaton Rapids, MI

 dementedwombat wrote:
Nah, one of the things I don't like about Warmachine is that is is designed from the ground up as a balanced competitive game (isn't that a great complaint, eh?). Moreso that it is designed that way often to the exclusion of a lot of other things: non-existent campaign or narrative event rules, lack of any kind of variety in story driven scenarios (or any kind of variety whatsoever other than "35/50 point Steamroller" with the odd battlebox new player orientation thrown in) such a reliance on exact to the millimeter model placement that any kind of terrain other than squares of colored fabric isn't playable as designed.

Anyway, I would say that competitive players aren't looked down upon as much in warmachine because overall the game balance and level of competitiveness is much more even between options than it is in other games. That's one of the things the game was designed for, and it does that very well, although admittedly not perfectly, no game really does.


Dude what are you talking about? There are narrative campaign rules in NQ all the time. Also they have "Historical battles" that you can play with specially designed cards for models, table set up etc. Some of the PG's are playing with new ways to run leagues where wins/losses/casualties carry over from week to week etc.

As to eHaley....everything in this game can be beaten. It's mostly in the player.

If you are looking to be a competitive (tournament) player. Just speak to your opponent before the game and let them know, Most folks (the ones I know and play with) will hold you to that standard. The nice thing about the rules is that a tournament player and a casual player can play against each other and still have a fun game. Its all in your attitude the rules will take care of themselves.

Now with 100% more blog....

CLICK THE LINK to my painting blog... You know you wanna. Do it, Just do it, like right now.
http://fltmedicpaints.blogspot.com

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 dementedwombat wrote:
Nah, one of the things I don't like about Warmachine is that is is designed from the ground up as a balanced competitive game (isn't that a great complaint, eh?). Moreso that it is designed that way often to the exclusion of a lot of other things: non-existent campaign or narrative event rules, lack of any kind of variety in story driven scenarios (or any kind of variety whatsoever other than "35/50 point Steamroller" with the odd battlebox new player orientation thrown in) such a reliance on exact to the millimeter model placement that any kind of terrain other than squares of colored fabric isn't playable as designed.


You ignore the frequent number of campaigns and historical missions in nq, as well as older campaign materiel in books like apotheosis and escalation.

Some more asymmetric attacker/defender scenarios would be nice though. But I can get those from forgeworld, and tweak them for WMH if necessary. So it's not that they're not there, folks just need a bit more imagination

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

Isn't everyone a competitive player like really?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 04:43:27


If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





Hollismason wrote:
Isn't everyone a competitive player like really?

I came into WMH as a fluff player from 40k. It's the fluff and story that drive me.
Why I like WMH is that I can play a fluffy army that is how I want it and still win games against competitive players. In fact, I get bonuses for being a fluffy player!



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Blood Hawk wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Surtur wrote:
I have yet to see ANY other game ferment such an attitude towards fellow players over something as simple as the color of your dudes.


Don't go to Mobile. The Swan hate is palpable.


You sure its not just Haley hate?

Cause she and Denny are probably the only genuinely broken models in the game.

Some of it is haley hate, other don't like Cygnar. It isn't nearly as bad as the ultramarine hate I saw in 40k though.


Specifically in Mobile, it's because they hold this belief that shooting is OP in the game and Cygnar is the "Shooty Faction".

It baffles my mind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/08 14:15:18


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 Platuan4th wrote:


Specifically in Mobile, it's because they hold this belief that shooting is OP in the game and Cygnar is the "Shooty Faction".

It baffles my mind.


Shooting is kind of OP, that is why every single scenario forces you to move to the middle of the board and prevents shoot-and-run from being a viable army wide tactic.

And speaking as a Cygnar player, this is a good thing, otherwise the game would be pretty frustrating for non-shooting armies.
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 Platuan4th wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Surtur wrote:
I have yet to see ANY other game ferment such an attitude towards fellow players over something as simple as the color of your dudes.


Don't go to Mobile. The Swan hate is palpable.


You sure its not just Haley hate?

Cause she and Denny are probably the only genuinely broken models in the game.

Some of it is haley hate, other don't like Cygnar. It isn't nearly as bad as the ultramarine hate I saw in 40k though.


Specifically in Mobile, it's because they hold this belief that shooting is OP in the game and Cygnar is the "Shooty Faction".

It baffles my mind.

Really? In my limited experience, I've found shooting to be kinda under powered. I play Convergence and we have a strong shooting game, but once a CC army gets close, I'm usually kinda toast.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 MWHistorian wrote:
Spoiler:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Surtur wrote:
I have yet to see ANY other game ferment such an attitude towards fellow players over something as simple as the color of your dudes.


Don't go to Mobile. The Swan hate is palpable.


You sure its not just Haley hate?

Cause she and Denny are probably the only genuinely broken models in the game.

Some of it is haley hate, other don't like Cygnar. It isn't nearly as bad as the ultramarine hate I saw in 40k though.


Specifically in Mobile, it's because they hold this belief that shooting is OP in the game and Cygnar is the "Shooty Faction".

It baffles my mind.

Really? In my limited experience, I've found shooting to be kinda under powered. I play Convergence and we have a strong shooting game, but once a CC army gets close, I'm usually kinda toast.


In 11 years, that has been my experience as well. These people have watched my Gators walk all over shooting lists(and I'm not even bringing my "You can't shoot me!" Barny list) and my shooty Rhulic list get thoroughly spanked by CC and combined arms lists.

And yet the belief still persists. I'm just glad that I'm far enough away they're not my regular group.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Kommando



Washington, DC

Warmachine's rules design seems to take the attitude of, "If it's good enough for competitive play, it'll work for other things!"

PP also has plenty of outreach to the competitive scene, with lots of official tournaments, rules, prize kits, etc.

Some of the rules for competitive play can seem intimidating (like death clock), but you soon realize that they make it more focused on the game itself rather then "TFG" interactions like stalling, ambiguous rule-lawyering, etc.

Just because the competitive scene has more support doesn't mean that the other parts of the game are weaker -- the game has lots of varied, "fun" formats.

...I do honestly feel like Warmachine attracts less hobbyists, though. There are plenty of skilled painters, but many fewer kitbashes/conversions, partly because the rules for conversions in competitive play are kinda strict.

Of course, it takes all kinds, and it depends a lot more on who you play with then the game itself!

Orks - "Da Rust Gitz" : 3000 pts
Empire - "Nordland Expeditionary Corps" : 3000 pts
Dwarfs - "Sons of Magni" 2000 points
Cygnar - "Black Swan" 100 pts
Trollbloods - "The Brotherhood"
Haqqislam- "Al-Istathaan": 300 points
Commonwealth - Desert Rats /2nd New Zealand 1000 points 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Florida

It's never been a problem for me, though I haven't gotten a game in for a while now. The group that was playing nearest to me still plays weekly, so they've all gotten pretty good.

As far as hobbyists go, I have to agree with ComTrav. Every time I do play, there's a lot of bare metal on the table.

\m/ 
   
 
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