Night Lords' Redeeming Qualities thread

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**Maximus Bitch**

Of all the Traitor Legions, the Night Lords seem to be the most vilified.

So I'm creating this thread as I would like to collect a list of what people think are the redeeming qualities of the Night Lords.

If you don't think they have any, that's fine. This thread is not for arguing about whether the Night Lords are good or bad. It's just to find the good stuff about the Night Lords, their "silver lining".

Cheers, and Ave Dominus Nox!

**EmpNortonII**

The Night Lords rebelled. They didn't fall to Chaos.

While they may make use of the gifts of Chaos, they are not its slaves. They fight the Imperium because of the injustice of the Emperor after Curze cleansed Nostramo as the Imperium did to many worlds.

**Drakeslayer**

The Night Lords are BATMAN IN SPACE. Do they need any redeeming features?
Their redeeming qualities then, IMO, are as follows:
1) they're not totally devoted to the dark gods
2) they disapprove of possession and dealing with daemons
3) they're BATMAN
4) they're renegades and pirates, making for good story plots
5) they obviously listen to Depeche Mode. (Wait, is that a good thing?)
And finally, 6) Night Lords are BATMAN!

**Redcruisair**

Drakeslayer wrote:
1) they're not totally devoted to the dark gods

How is that a redeeming quality? No allegiance to any of the four gods or a greater lord just makes them into backstabbing mercenary scums, which is an awesome but not very redeeming quality.

Drakeslayer wrote:
2) they disapprove of possession and dealing with daemons

Krieg Acerbus and Vandred says hi.

Drakeslayer wrote:
3) they're BATMAN

Batman does not kill. Ever.

Drakeslayer wrote:
4) they're renegades and pirates, making for good story plots

So are the Red Corsairs, and many other warbands for that matter.

**Khonsu**

Who cares if they do not worship chaos as long as they are warp touched?
Oooh they're atheists wow that's cool.

**ChazSexington**

Khonsu wrote:
Who cares if they do not worship chaos as long as they are warp touched?
Oooh they're atheists wow that's cool.

Uh, atheism is the belief that gods don't exist. They are very aware of their existence.

Greatest redeeming feature for Konrad is that he knew parts of what was going to happen, or least it's implied. If you know the Imperium is going to engage in an apocalyptic war, pitting you against your father and both of you will die... Well, you're gonna go crazy with those visions eventually.

**Poly Ranger**

Their paint scheme looks awsome with dual lightening claws and jump packs...

**BlaxicanX**

Never really understood the "Batman in Space" thing.

I mean... yeah, they have the whole "bat" motif thing going on with the ears, but they're methodology and convictions make them seem more like Space Punisher.

**BrianDavion**

and honestly their refusal to follow the chaos gods strikes me as mostly lip service. I'm sure they have cults to the various ruinious powers among their ranks.

**SharkoutofWata**

Why do we have to redeem them? Why can't we just enjoy the bad guy? An Anti-hero. There is no single character I like more in the 40k universe than Zso Sahaal but that doesn't mean we need to find some honor in his pre-heresy ways. Enjoy the villain.

**Ashiraya**

They are evil super-batman in space.

Just like Batman, they are extremely skilled, use stealth and psychology to beat superior numbers, and use high tech; but in addition to Batman they are gigantic nasty monsters.

It's like a 40K Batman.

**mitch_rifle**

They're honest about who and what they are. I'd say they are the least ignorant of all the imperium's forces both traitor and loyal

**angelofvengeance**

They're very much the ends justify the means types.

**Ratius**

Why do we have to redeem them? Why can't we just enjoy the bad guy? An Anti-hero. There is no single character I like more in the 40k universe than Zso Sahaal but that doesn't mean we need to find some honor in his pre-heresy ways. Enjoy the villain.

My thoughts exactly. I cant find any real redeeming features for them. But thats how they are written and Im fine with that.

**Ailaros**

Redcruisair wrote:
Drakeslayer wrote:
1) they're not totally devoted to the dark gods

How is that a redeeming quality? No allegiance to any of the four gods or a greater lord just makes them into backstabbing mercenary scums, which is an awesome but not very redeeming quality.

Because they are taking a stand on principle, not because they are mindlessly obedient to a supernatural power. 1ksons fight because they're armor-robots who are compelled to do so, and khorne berzerkers fight because it's the only thing they can do anymore thanks to intentional brain damage and insane compulsion.

Night lords fight against the imperium because it's corrupt and brutal and awful in every way, and once they wake up all the sheeple they can restore order and liberty. What redeems them is that they epitomise the civil liberty aspect of chaos. They're still chaos, though, because they're donkey-caves about it. They're the occupy movement with guns, and, like other terrorist organizations like, formerly, ETA or the IRA, their fundamental disrespect for people they consider stupider or worse than them permits them to commit violence that is arguably against the entire point of what they're trying to achieve in the first place. Well-meaning, but flawed. That's really chaos in a nutshell.

I'd like them more, except for the stupid bat ears.

BlaxicanX wrote:I mean... yeah, they have the whole "bat" motif thing going on with the ears, but they're methodology and convictions make them seem more like Space Punisher.

+1

If only they went around in black with a skull motif instead of flappy faced lightning squiggles...

**Psienesis**

Night lords fight against the imperium because it's corrupt and brutal and awful in every way, and once they wake up all the sheeple they can restore order and liberty. What redeems them is that they epitomise the civil liberty aspect of chaos. They're still chaos, though, because they're donkey-caves about it. They're the occupy movement with guns, and, like other terrorist organizations like, formerly, ETA or the IRA, their fundamental disrespect for people they consider stupider or worse than them permits them to commit violence that is arguably against the entire point of what they're trying to achieve in the first place. Well-meaning, but flawed. That's really chaos in a nutshell.

The NL represent, more than civil liberties, unfettered personal freedom... and why that's such a terrible thing. They are, by their very nature, terrorists to such extremes that we would probably need to invent a new word, like "ultra-megaterrorism" or "hyper-pantsgakking-terrorism" to describe their combat doctrine.

There's nothing redeeming about this Legion. They aren't meant to be redeemable. They're monsters in super-human guises.

**Ailaros**

That's what tyrannid are for, or even DE or orks to an extent.

What makes chaos so good is that they're so relatable. They're not faceless monsters, they're "normal people" who have made what look, on the face of it, reasonable decisions, and then live with the nightmare of their own consequences.

Chaos works because it could be you. It works because it reminds you that the Nazis were voted into power, anti-poverty measures since the 1970's have increased poverty, and that the path to hell is paved in good intentions and the desire to do things your way. They're the epitome of beware what you wish for, lest you get it.

They're not just yet another faceless, alien, unintelligible threat out there somewhere. It's the danger from within...

**TheCustomLime**

SharkoutofWata wrote:
Why do we have to redeem them? Why can't we just enjoy the bad guy? An Anti-hero. There is no single character I like more in the 40k universe than Zso Sahaal but that doesn't mean we need to find some honor in his pre-heresy ways. Enjoy the villain.

Because that would make them one-dimensional? Even Hitler had a good side.

**Psienesis**

I don't see the NL as anything like that. Just like Colonel Kurtz, they stopped being human and became beasts. They went into the jungle and, instead of taming it, they became beasts within it.

There's nothing relatable about the Night Lords. Nothing they or their Primarch experienced is anything like anything any of us on these boards, or any other human being who has ever heard of Warhammer 40,000 has ever, or will ever, experience. This is true about most of the Traitor Legions, specifically, but the setting in-general.

Yes, the Nazis were voted into power; it's also a really bad example because their nationalism and anti-semetism were not exactly unusual for the era, and the reason they came into power is directly a result of the Treaty of Versailles that ended the First World War. The Night Lords were not. They were not elected. They hold no office. They answer to no one. They are a rogue military resource, nothing more. They do what they do because they want to do it. They really have nothing but their own selfish interests in mind when they do it, too. They're not setting anyone free of anything. They're not striking against "The Man". They're simply butchering innocent people, and the response sent to defend those innocent people, for the lulz.

**Ailaros**

Psienesis wrote:There's nothing relatable about the Night Lords.

Nothing? Not one thing?

No one can relate to the bitterness caused by loss of faith, and the desire to reciprocate against those who still believe. No one can relate to engaging on a mindless level those who a person believes too stupid to engage on a rational one. No one can relate to being ordered to do something that you think will cause more harm than good, and having to weigh obedience against responsibility and utility. No one has ever felt the sting of being rebuked for doing one's job too well, or the listless yearning of fighting for a lost cause.

Nope. Completely unrelatable.

Psienesis wrote:Yes, the Nazis were voted into power; it's also a really bad example because their nationalism and anti-semetism were not exactly unusual for the era, and the reason they came into power is directly a result of the Treaty of Versailles that ended the First World War. The Night Lords were not.

It's an idea showing an example of something else by comparing similarities, not relating direct equivalency. It's an analogy. Sheesh.

Like the above, I think you're failing to appreciate how abstract ideas can be related to individual circumstances.

**Psienesis**

Nothing? Not one thing?

No one can relate to the bitterness caused by loss of faith, and the desire to reciprocate against those who still believe. No one can relate to engaging on a mindless level those who a person believes too stupid to engage on a rational one. No one can relate to being ordered to do something that you think will cause more harm than good, and having to weigh obedience against responsibility and utility. No one has ever felt the sting of being rebuked for doing one's job too well, or the listless yearning of fighting for a lost cause.

No, because I'm not a psychopath.

To quote Colonel Kurtz (and, by extension, Conrad Kurze):

Colonel Kurtz wrote:I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror... Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not, then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies! I remember when I was with Special Forces... seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a camp to inoculate some children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there, and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile. A pile of little arms. And I remember... I... I... I cried, I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out; I didn't know what I wanted to do! And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it... I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought, my God... the genius of that! The genius! The will to do that! Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we, because they could stand that these were not monsters, these were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men, our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment! Because it's judgment that defeats us.

**Ailaros**

Psienesis wrote:No, because I'm not a psychopath.

Perhaps you are. Feeling emotions, including negative ones, is part of being human. If you can't feel hurt or betrayal, then either you've achieved enlightenment or something's wrong.

Ailaros wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:I mean... yeah, they have the whole "bat" motif thing going on with the ears, but they're methodology and convictions make them seem more like Space Punisher.

+1

If only they went around in black with a skull motif instead of flappy faced lightning squiggles...

Oh, they do, sort of:

Definitely more Punisher and less Adam West.

**SharkoutofWata**

A better (but prolly not formatted right) picture would be:

Spoiler:

**Jimsolo**

Their founder had the clarity to recognize the poison he had brought to the Imperium and destroy the source before it could spread further.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Ailaros wrote:
Psienesis wrote:No, because I'm not a psychopath.

Perhaps you are. Feeling emotions, including negative ones, is part of being human. If you can't feel hurt or betrayal, then either you've achieved enlightenment or something's wrong.

Ailaros wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:I mean... yeah, they have the whole "bat" motif thing going on with the ears, but they're methodology and convictions make them seem more like Space Punisher.

+1

If only they went around in black with a skull motif instead of flappy faced lightning squiggles...

Oh, they do, sort of:

Definitely more Punisher and less Adam West.

There’s a dream I have from time to time. And in the dream I don’t stop. I kill the soldiers and the hitmen. The extortioners and the racketeers, the dark old feths who send them out to fight — I hold the trigger down until they’re all gone —

But I don’t stop.

The innocents are just watching, like always. The slack-jawed thousands, gazing at the beast. My family lie red and shredded in the grass. I face the crowd and bring the weapon to my shoulder. If my world ends, I tell them, so does yours.

The recoil starts and I wake up.

It’s just a dream, I always tell myself. It’s just a dream.

It’s just a dream.

**EmpNortonII**

Psienesis wrote:
Night lords fight against the imperium because it's corrupt and brutal and awful in every way, and once they wake up all the sheeple they can restore order and liberty. What redeems them is that they epitomise the civil liberty aspect of chaos. They're still chaos, though, because they're donkey-caves about it. They're the occupy movement with guns, and, like other terrorist organizations like, formerly, ETA or the IRA, their fundamental disrespect for people they consider stupider or worse than them permits them to commit violence that is arguably against the entire point of what they're trying to achieve in the first place. Well-meaning, but flawed. That's really chaos in a nutshell.

The NL represent, more than civil liberties, unfettered personal freedom... and why that's such a terrible thing. They are, by their very nature, terrorists to such extremes that we would probably need to invent a new word, like "ultra-megaterrorism" or "hyper-pantsgakking-terrorism" to describe their combat doctrine.

There's nothing redeeming about this Legion. They aren't meant to be redeemable. They're monsters in super-human guises.

They're kind of like ISIS.

**Ashiraya**

EmpNortonII wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Night lords fight against the imperium because it's corrupt and brutal and awful in every way, and once they wake up all the sheeple they can restore order and liberty. What redeems them is that they epitomise the civil liberty aspect of chaos. They're still chaos, though, because they're donkey-caves about it. They're the occupy movement with guns, and, like other terrorist organizations like, formerly, ETA or the IRA, their fundamental disrespect for people they consider stupider or worse than them permits them to commit violence that is arguably against the entire point of what they're trying to achieve in the first place. Well-meaning, but flawed. That's really chaos in a nutshell.

The NL represent, more than civil liberties, unfettered personal freedom... and why that's such a terrible thing. They are, by their very nature, terrorists to such extremes that we would probably need to invent a new word, like "ultra-megaterrorism" or "hyper-pantsgakking-terrorism" to describe their combat doctrine.

There's nothing redeeming about this Legion. They aren't meant to be redeemable. They're monsters in super-human guises.

They're kind of like ISIS.

No, that's the Word Bearers.

**locarno24**

Agreed on the atheist thing.

The Night Lords are fully aware that the chaos gods exist, but (for most of them) that's no good reason to go around doing anything as stupid as believing in them!

And....no. The scariest thing about them - the 'proper' night lords, like Sevatar and Talos - is that they aren't psychopaths. They're sociopaths. They're quite* sane, but have dispassionately decided that the most time-efficient approach to getting what they want is skinning you alive with a flensing scalpel.

If I had to pick one redeedming quality, it's that because of the above, a lot of them aren't the cackling psychopaths that they are made out to be (and Kurse definitely was). If you read the verious Night Lords books, a surprising number of them end up getting killed doing something stupid and/or noble, despite their best efforts to the contrary.

* well, as sane as chaos marines get.

**EmpNortonII**

locarno24 wrote:

If I had to pick one redeedming quality, it's that because of the above, a lot of them aren't the cackling psychopaths that they are made out to be (and Kurse definitely was). If you read the verious Night Lords books, a surprising number of them end up getting killed doing something stupid and/or noble, despite their best efforts to the contrary.

* well, as sane as chaos marines get.

I have to defend Kurze. There's only one or two Primarchs that landed on a world worse than Nostramo. There were none cursed with his visions.

The Emperor could have helped him at any time and didn't. Kurze was driven insane- he didn't choose his path.

**Redcruisair**

EmpNortonII wrote:
he didn't choose his path.

How so?