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This thread is NOT going to be like other threads about 'balancing' armies which are actually threads about buffing your army silly. What I want in a codex is one that is not complained about, not considered 'OP' and stays loyal to the fluff.

Some changes should be the removal of Supportive Fire. It was fun whilst it lasted, but its against the fluff. What I believe should happen is that it should be swapped with Darkstrider's Fighting Retreat rule. This would mean that Tau would remain unique, but instead of avoiding combat through completely destroying the enemy from overwatch, they would get to fire overwatch and then fall back d6 inches, increasing the charge range for enemies.

Markerlights shouldn't be able to boost overwatch. Snapshots in general, yes, but not for overwatch.

Railguns should be buffed, perhaps removing multiple hullpoints on a pen result or something?

The Ion Accelerator should probably be reduced to be AP3 as the Ion Cannon is AP3.

Stealth suits should have something similar to the invisibility power instead of stealth and shrouding.

Shas'vre should be BS4. It makes no sense how someone at the middle rank of the fire caste shoots worse than an AM veteran who is still just a guardsman.

HYMP Broadsides should be more expensive, maybe 10 points to upgrade the HRR to it, therefore making there the HRR more useful.

What are your thoughts on these suggestions and do you have any suggestions too?

New: Guys, out of curiosity, where would you rank the Tau, at the moment, in terms of competitiveness with 1 being the very best army?

Ethereal powers should be like guardsmen orders. Have to pass a ld test on a single unit (2 if wheelchair dude)

Fighting retreat is better than Supportive Fire by far. Basically it reduces an enemy's average charge distance - assuming you move directly away - to 3.5", or only 1.5" if they're assaulting through cover.

IME Markerlights aren't used that much for boosting during overwatch, and if Supportive Fire is taken away that goes away entirely.

I don't know if Railguns need a buff - they've already got a 33% chance to destroy a vehicle with each penetrating hit and do it at extreme range. Given Tau's easy access to Ignores Cover, BS boosts and Tankhunter that SHOULD be good enough.

Stealthsuits already have a 3+/2++, they do not need to be improved beyond that.

raverrn wrote:
Fighting retreat is better than Supportive Fire by far. Basically it reduces an enemy's average charge distance - assuming you move directly away - to 3.5", or only 1.5" if they're assaulting through cover.

IME Markerlights aren't used that much for boosting during overwatch, and if Supportive Fire is taken away that goes away entirely.

I don't know if Railguns need a buff - they've already got a 33% chance to destroy a vehicle with each penetrating hit and do it at extreme range. Given Tau's easy access to Ignores Cover, BS boosts and Tankhunter that SHOULD be good enough.

Stealthsuits already have a 3+/2++, they do not need to be improved beyond that.

Fighting Retreat is only better if there are no nearby Tau units. This change was more for fluff purposes as Tau don't really hold ground, so it just made more sense IMO.

That is true about Markerlights, I didn't think that part through

With railguns, only one Hammerhead can take Longstrike, so only one can have Tankhunters. Whenever I use them, they never do anything as blowing a vehicle up is way too hard in 7th. 1 shot is simply not enough.

To get the 2+ cover they need to be in a ruin though. Also, 18 inch guns are not that good, especially when they are really fragile and would be just within charge range to shoot. My suggested changes to both stealth suits and railguns were mainly an attempt to get people to use them as other units completely overshadow them. With these changes, there would be more of a decision to be made between stealth suits/riptide/crisis suits, rather than just riptide/crisis suits, and hammerhead/broadsides instead of just spamming broadsides.

Markerlight fix:

Counters can be used for:
-Fire Seeker missile, rules in the current state
-Improve BS of the shot by one per counter spent
-Reduce the enemy's cover save by one per counter spent

A unit may only do one of those during any Shooting phase.

Here's my changes.

Remove Submunition Rounds.
Give Hammerheads BS3
Remove Supporting Fire, replace with Fighting Retreat.
Give Pulse Rifles Str4 AP5 back.
Riptides get 4 wounds.
Ion accelerator is 36" range instead of 60"

.... Why?
The hammerhead doesn't need to be nerfed, especially the submunition round which was in the previous codex.

There is no reason why you'd replace Supporting Fire with something better. A 1/6 chance to hit is not better than moving D6" away.
Why take away S5 from the Pulse Rifle? The standard of Tau firepower.
Riptides aren't actually that bad as a base model. The 5 wounds is factored into the cost with the Nova charge usage and HBC.
The only thing that should be fixed is the IA, which shortening the range doesn't do that much for really.

I think if the rail guns also had the haywire rule (electromagnetic etc) it would be better. That way they get to roll to pen, as well as inflict the haywire damage. Makes them a bit more reliable for what they should be good at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I do feel the need to point out that I haven't seen a Tau player even get close to placing at the last few major GT's.

Verviedi wrote:
Here's my changes.

Remove Submunition Rounds.
Give Hammerheads BS3
Remove Supporting Fire, replace with Fighting Retreat.
Give Pulse Rifles Str4 AP5 back.
Riptides get 4 wounds.
Ion accelerator is 36" range instead of 60"

What?
S5 guns has always been base for tau and there is no reasons to change it. And there is no reason to nerf the railhead.

I don't think you should take away supporting fire - that's really what helps Tau. I however wouldn't see a problem having supporting fire units be forced to make a LD check in order to do so. In that it would make more sense to start including Fire Warrior sergeants (as right now they don't seem to be worth upgrading)

Overwatch and Markerlights create the bulk of the Tau synergy and negating those abilities really takes away from their strength - if they didn't have the ability to do these things then you might as well be playing Imperial Guard.

I could see changing markerlights to remove 1 point of cover per mark to a max of 6 this seems fair enough but still - these things make Tau what they are. With other armies relatively easy access to Ignore's Cover why would you then take that away from Tau as well?

Why should our Pulse Rifles be neutered to be bolt guns - they are not boltguns - they are better.

Submunition Rounds are also a sensible upgrade for Hammerheads - perhaps a slight bump in cost(5pts for a Str 6 large blast is a little undercosted) but that factored in with the cost of a Hammerhead doesn't seem unreasonable. Taking them away is just silly - Tau weaponry is a toolbox full of options, why strip them of those options when we really need everything we can get. A single Str 10 attack is nice sure but we can't fire both and it makes more sense to use the submunition rounds than the Rail shot in most cases.

SGTPozy wrote:

1. Some changes should be the removal of Supportive Fire. It was fun whilst it lasted, but its against the fluff. What I believe should happen is that it should be swapped with Darkstrider's Fighting Retreat rule. This would mean that Tau would remain unique, but instead of avoiding combat through completely destroying the enemy from overwatch, they would get to fire overwatch and then fall back d6 inches, increasing the charge range for enemies.

2. Markerlights shouldn't be able to boost overwatch. Snapshots in general, yes, but not for overwatch.

3. Railguns should be buffed, perhaps removing multiple hullpoints on a pen result or something?

4. The Ion Accelerator should probably be reduced to be AP3 as the Ion Cannon is AP3.

5. Stealth suits should have something similar to the invisibility power instead of stealth and shrouding.

6. Shas'vre should be BS4. It makes no sense how someone at the middle rank of the fire caste shoots worse than an AM veteran who is still just a guardsman.

7. HYMP Broadsides should be more expensive, maybe 10 points to upgrade the HRR to it, therefore making there the HRR more useful.

1. I feel that would fit fluff, and would be pretty cool.

2. I agree. Also, you forgot to mention that Markerlights need to be what they used to be. Not the "Welp, that's two Markerlights, no cover for you bruh" BS.

3. No. Railguns are already too good IMO. If you field two of them with the current Markerlights, I will not unpack my models.

4. Seems fair enough.

5. No. Invisibility is already a broken mechanic. We don't need more stuff with it.

6. Eeeeeh, maybe.

7. Agreed.

I like Lord Commissar's idea for the railgun, not too powerful but is good as whenever I use them, my pen (if I pen) is always really low, so at least 2HPs would be decent to take off.

Pulse weapons definitely should stay at S5, it would be stupid to lower them, especially since they are only BS3.

I also agree with digital-animal about markerlights and supportive fire, that is the way it appears to be going.

If markerlights do go the way that AnomandaRake said, then we should get back the ability to make suits BS4 like before

Wait wait wait...so an army that hasn't placed in a major tournament in like a year, you're intending on nerfing a bit? Sorry, but this thread seems like people who don't like Tau cheese, but can't notice their own. Are there cheesy things with Tau? Absolutely. I've played Tau since 4th, and they have always had rules that went contrary to standard ways to play the game. But if you take some of the key rules away(supporting fire and markerlights) and don't add meaningful buffs than it seems more spiteful than anything else.

Also, I find it ironic that everyone seems to hate the IA, but no one has mentioned a Bursttide with ECPA, which is a staple in every competitive Tau list, nor has anyone critiqued Buffcommanders or Farsight Bomb. Quite an odd thread

jathomas2013 wrote:
Wait wait wait...so an army that hasn't placed in a major tournament in like a year, you're intending on nerfing a bit? Sorry, but this thread seems like people who don't like Tau cheese, but can't notice their own. Are there cheesy things with Tau? Absolutely. I've played Tau since 4th, and they have always had rules that went contrary to standard ways to play the game. But if you take some of the key rules away(supporting fire and markerlights) and don't add meaningful buffs than it seems more spiteful than anything else.

Also, I find it ironic that everyone seems to hate the IA, but no one has mentioned a Bursttide with ECPA, which is a staple in every competitive Tau list, nor has anyone critiqued Buffcommanders or Farsight Bomb. Quite an odd thread

Jathomas you do have to admit that the 7th edition codexes are actually... balanced (ugh what a weird word for 40k) externally with each other, it really surprises me so. Tau compared to those codex are still above them in the power scale with their 6th ed; SGTPozy is just tossing out some ideas seeing if the community likes them. I am scared of what Games Workshop will actually do with Tau with their recent trend of making bad units worse and good units better, I can only imagine how kroot and vespid will fare. Seeing as Tau lack Battle Brothers with anyone now, I could see GamesWorkshop making it so Farsight Enclave and Tau Septs can be allied with each other now.

Especially to take advantage of the battlesuits.

I think the only changes tau really need are nerf the riptide's survivability by removing its option for FNP and make the 3++ nova result a 4++ or FNP. Its absurd how easy it is for it to be T6 2+/3++/5+FNP and having 5W basically means If I need to kill it I have to wait for it to fail the 3+ nova test to even have a feasible chance and even then with 5++ and FNP it always has a least 55% to ignore any ap2 wound sent at it. it's shooting is fine for the price it just needs an actual weakness.

And then make ignore cover a little less prevalent. This one is only because a few of the armies in the game depend on cover to function well (IG, Orkz, Nids) and tau near auto win against them because they can put ignore cover on anything with MLs. Probably would just make is cost 3 MLs to require a little more effort and then will make it more of a trade of BS for ignoring cover.

Tau are a strong codex but most of their units can played around. I think these two things are the only part that you don't really get a choice against.

Honestly I think an easy fix is to swap Ion Cannon and Ion Accelerator. Makes more sense to see the more powerful gun on the mobile gun platform than an arm mounted weapon on a giant robot.
Or just remove the second mode from the IA on the Riptide so it has to nova charge to get a blast at all.

I honestly feel a decent fix for the HRR is to make it Rapid Fire 48" instead of the Heavy 1. Yeah, maybe increase prices a bit for the HYMP. Honestly I'd prefer to see them cost more but get the option to move and shoot again.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

I honestly feel a decent fix for the HRR is to make it Rapid Fire 48" instead of the Heavy 1.

Saw this and immediately agreed... mostly. How about Salvo 1/2 60" ?

StarHunter25 wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

I honestly feel a decent fix for the HRR is to make it Rapid Fire 48" instead of the Heavy 1.

Saw this and immediately agreed... mostly. How about Salvo 1/2 60" ?

Mc have relentless so would be firing the 2 shots all the time?

SGTPozy wrote:

raverrn wrote:
Fighting retreat is better than Supportive Fire by far. Basically it reduces an enemy's average charge distance - assuming you move directly away - to 3.5", or only 1.5" if they're assaulting through cover.

IME Markerlights aren't used that much for boosting during overwatch, and if Supportive Fire is taken away that goes away entirely.

I don't know if Railguns need a buff - they've already got a 33% chance to destroy a vehicle with each penetrating hit and do it at extreme range. Given Tau's easy access to Ignores Cover, BS boosts and Tankhunter that SHOULD be good enough.

Stealthsuits already have a 3+/2++, they do not need to be improved beyond that.

Fighting Retreat is only better if there are no nearby Tau units. This change was more for fluff purposes as Tau don't really hold ground, so it just made more sense IMO.

That is true about Markerlights, I didn't think that part through

With railguns, only one Hammerhead can take Longstrike, so only one can have Tankhunters. Whenever I use them, they never do anything as blowing a vehicle up is way too hard in 7th. 1 shot is simply not enough.

To get the 2+ cover they need to be in a ruin though. Also, 18 inch guns are not that good, especially when they are really fragile and would be just within charge range to shoot. My suggested changes to both stealth suits and railguns were mainly an attempt to get people to use them as other units completely overshadow them. With these changes, there would be more of a decision to be made between stealth suits/riptide/crisis suits, rather than just riptide/crisis suits, and hammerhead/broadsides instead of just spamming broadsides.

I agree the charge thing might be too much of a hit to assault armies but I also disagree with your interpretation of the fluff. It's not that Tau don't stand their ground, it's that they don't view territorial gains as a factor in battles. It's sort of like Athens in ancient Greece, they would hold a battle line during a battle(as that's important) but they were able to abandon their city because it was the idea that mattered, not the city.

Least that's how I always took it, obviously they move around a lot but you don't back up one unit to allow a big hole in your line during battle unless everything is retreating or it's on purpose to surround the target.

That sounds about right. The tau don't believe in trading ground for bodies. They do not siege if they can avoid it. Hit-and-run is pretty much the preferred tactic of the fire caste.

 total0 wrote:

Mc have relentless so would be firing the 2 shots all the time?

Broadsides are Infantry that are very bulky, not MC.

Guys, out of curiosity, where would you rank the Tau, at the moment, in terms of competitiveness with 1 being the very best army?
I'd probably say that Tau are 4th or 5th best;
Eldar being No1,
Imperial shenanigans as being No2,
Daemons as No3,
Then either Tau or Necrons as No4.

SGTPozy wrote:
Guys, out of curiosity, where would you rank the Tau, at the moment, in terms of competitiveness with 1 being the very best army?
I'd probably say that Tau are 4th or 5th best;
Eldar being No1,
Imperial shenanigans as being No2,
Daemons as No3,
Then either Tau or Necrons as No4.

I'd have to agree with number 1 and 2 but would definitely say tau were the 3rd strongest then daemons in 4th

Tau aren't as strong as they used to be if you're using Malestrom mission.

It forces them to get up close something that no Tau player wants to do. Right now I say they are 4th.

Fish transports with drones are amazing in maelstorm actually.

The 'fish happens to be massively over-priced though.

 koooaei wrote:
Fish transports with drones are amazing in maelstorm actually.

How so? drones can't score. and the fish does not bring anything special to the table.



In any case, to balance tau the following needs to be done:


1-the HRR needs to be brought back at an anti-tank gun, at S8 with no speical rules, even as ap1, its just not.

2-the HYMP needs to be brought down it power. its too effective.

3-the ion accelerator needs to be brought down, it alone brakes the riptide. take away some of its range, and the non-nova blast, at it should be ok.

4-stealth suits needs a bit of a boost, making them slightly cheaper is the simple way.

5-vespid, needs either a bit of a CC punch, or a bit of a price brake.

That's it. nothing else needs to change in order to balance the tau, everything else is within the realm of metabalance and sorts itself out naturally as other codcies around it change, its just there few that are the fixed points of "too good/not enough".



As for a fluffy change, broadsides REALLY should be T5. this must come with a price increase if done, but LOOK at them, they are HUGE, no way its just T4.

I still think a small point change and moving stealth suits to FA would be a better option.

Mostly because I want suits in every FOC slot.

But I agree. Especially on Broadsides. They are almost the size of dreds I think.

Yeah Broadsides are essentially the size of dreadnoughts, but making them T5 would stop them from being insta-killed, so I doubt it would happen.

I personally would hate stealth suits to be FA as my FA slots are always full - there's so much competition, yet I always have spare Elite slots. Just decrease the price and I'd consider using them

Vespid are a lost cause in my opinion, although I like including auxiliaries in my army, they will never be a good choice.

I think decent changes to tau would be:

Ld test for supporting fire

Markerlights require 1 token per cover save reduction

Seeker missiles fired by a markerlight do not require line of sight and may target a unit different to that targeted by the rest of the firing model's guns

Disruption pods 10pts instead of 15, with old jink they were a steal, now way too expensive

auto Repair system 3pts instead of 5

Heavy rail rifle St9 Ap1, Although I think the idea for rapid fire or salvo is also very interesting and could be a good idea, right now theyre not worth it which is a great shame

HYPD +5pts per model

Railguns definitely need something else, maybe haywire as someone suggested? they are supposed to be high powered vehicle killers so need someone. Armourbane or lance might also be interesting but doesnt help with the fact they do very little after the pen, hence haywire might be better, More bang for buck.

Riptide +20pts, theyre just too cheap

Stealth suits 25pts each, marker beacon can be taken by all squad members for +2pts

Devilfish 65pts from 80. 80 was absurd even with the old jink rules, now they are way overcosted

Vespid and razorsharks need something.. not sure what though. Sunshark is okish.. maybe a slight points decrease?

Sniper teams need to be a slotless choice or maybe non-obsec non-compulsory troops. They're not a bad unit but they take up one of the most valuable slots in the codex so get pushed down

Drone squadrons should be 12pts a model. 14 is too expensive, even with a commander with controller shinnigans its a very expensive unit for its output.