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Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





I just played my first game yesterday (learning with my brother) and I was noticing how small the threat ranges are compared to other games I'm used to. The charge ranges are like 7" and as soon as you get in range, they charge you instead. It seems like if you stay static, on my turn I have to eventually move into charge range and then POW I've been charged and take 18 damage ( he rolled trip 6s for damage when I got charged like this). Also, gun ranges are incredibly small compared to 40k. Is this just AOE weapons or are all weapons ranges so small? Final question is this... Is there any negative to running with an infantryman when he is not in range of anything? It just seems like they are so slow and have nothing to do until they get into combat. Thanks for the help...

For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling  
   
Made in ca
Bane Lord Tartar Sauce




 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I just played my first game yesterday (learning with my brother) and I was noticing how small the threat ranges are compared to other games I'm used to. The charge ranges are like 7" and as soon as you get in range, they charge you instead. It seems like if you stay static, on my turn I have to eventually move into charge range and then POW I've been charged and take 18 damage ( he rolled trip 6s for damage when I got charged like this). Also, gun ranges are incredibly small compared to 40k. Is this just AOE weapons or are all weapons ranges so small? Final question is this... Is there any negative to running with an infantryman when he is not in range of anything? It just seems like they are so slow and have nothing to do until they get into combat. Thanks for the help...


Charge is your units speed plus 3" so the typical range you see is between 7" and 10". Part of the game is trying to out-maneouver your opponent so that you get the most beneficial charges. This can be done by either having high-mobility units, by creating situations where your opponent is left between making one of two bad choices (for example, you could run a warjack up into your opponents charge range to try to bait a charge. They will then either have to charge it, doing some damage but leaving themselves vulnerable to a counter charge and potentially open to assassination, or leave it be and have a heavy charging their line the next turn), or simply due to the necessity of applying pressure to objectives (the steamroller rules, which are available online for free, are PP's official tournament rules, where you start scoring points for objectives at the end of the second players second turn, so you may want to rush into a zone to claim an objective for yourself).

Yes, guns have lower range in warmachine than in 40k, but that is largely because the game is balanced around having to get in close, opposed to staying back and just rolling D6 until your opponent is wiped out. Most weapons, AoE or otherwise, have a range of 10" to 12", with the absolute lowest and highest I can think of being 5" (Holy Zealots in the Protectorate) and 16" (the Defender).

As a note on running, while typically advantageous you have to remember that running is a models entire activation. If you have an ability that you want to use (such as the Shield Wall order or some *Action), you are unable to do so if you run them that turn.
   
Made in us
Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

Khador mortar shoots AOEs 20".

as for that ranges they can increase dramatically once you learn the nuances of the game. Cygnar can send shots 24+ inches away. Cryx can have dies 30+ inches across the 48" board at the end of turn one.

There are plenty of insane combos.
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





That seems really unfair, if you charge 7", how do you counter a 24" shooting? Another question. Is it possible to kill a war jack or Warbeast with any unit or is it impossible for some units to hurt war jacks? Also, I come from 40k and am not sure if I'm playing this right, but is the enemy ever able to attack or shoot on your turn?

For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling  
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 Waaagh 18 wrote:
That seems really unfair, if you charge 7", how do you counter a 24" shooting?


By positioning the models in your unit further apart so that the mortar only kills 1 or 2 with each shot.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

Another question. Is it possible to kill a war jack or Warbeast with any unit or is it impossible for some units to hurt war jacks?


Some support units can't damage the really high armour warjacks, otherwise practically anything will be able to damage everything else with more or less difficulty.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

Also, I come from 40k and am not sure if I'm playing this right, but is the enemy ever able to attack or shoot on your turn?


Some spells and special abilities allow for out of turn shooting or mellee, but as a general rule, no, you cannot attack things when its not your turn.
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





I've also heard that AOE weapons are really inaccurate, but they seem like they're just as easy to hit with as other weapons... And they only scatter D6...

For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling  
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




 Waaagh 18 wrote:
I've also heard that AOE weapons are really inaccurate, but they seem like they're just as easy to hit with as other weapons... And they only scatter D6...


Well, no, SOME AOE weapons are really inaccurate, like the aforementioned Winter Guard Mortar that even has the Inaccurate rule that gives it -4 to hit, but as a general rule, AOE weapons aren't any less accurate than normal weapons. They could even be considered to be more accurate than normal weapons since even if they miss, their blast still has a chance to hit something anyway.
   
Made in ca
Hunting Glade Guard




To be honest, this game is a whole lot more fair than 40K would be. Well at least if by fair, you mean balanced. Having 24'' range on shooting usually means a lower POW hit, so having models with high ARM and some HP boxes will ensure you make it to melee. Remember that AOEs often means splash damage especially when it deviates, so half POW of the weapon... warjacks usually do not care about POW 5 to 7 hit (although fire effect, and corrosion effect to a lesser extent might still mean that the shot is useful to the shooter).

As a Cryx player, I ensure you there are ways around getting shot. Stealth sure is good, but is not a be all end all thing. Make sure your units are not clogged together, fill that space. Like any wargame, cover is really good, boosted def will make those AOEs deviate. High ARM will make sure some guys survive. Tough comes in mind to save an average guy out of 3 (exactly like FeelNoPain from 40K). Also, High Speed is always good against shooting. Find the combos available to you in your faction, make a unit speed 7,8 or even 9 and run them 18inches towards the ennemy, providing a meat shield for your more potent, slower troops.

What faction are you playing? I had exactly this problem when I started 8 months ago. I am playing Cryx and played against Cygnar my first 10 games... yeah they shoot you down... but we have outs to that. Not even high ARM, because appart from jacks, our ARM is gak. But an Advance Deployed Satyxis Raiders running 18 inches to cover first turn means they have a DEF20, immune to splash damage in charge range next turn... possibly in their back or at least flank. Seems good right? Well, Menoth would just shoot burning AOEs, not care about hitting and burn the crap out of them... Every game, you'll have to adapt. But there are tools in your faction, use them.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Kommando



Washington, DC

Engagement ranges in WM are short compared to 40k (or many other games). I know the "game of inches" cliche gets trotted out a lot, but the difference between a threat of 8.5" (typical heavy jack) and 10.5" (heavy with reach) is a pretty big deal.

Most steamroller scenarios tend to force you to the middle, too (especially those with killbox), so camping in the deployment zone with a gunline doesn't work very well most games.

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Made in us
Trollkin Champion





Indiana

The first turn usually tend to be a run fest as everyone attempts to close the gap. Especially armies that have little to no shooting, of course.

Pyg burrower's guns have a 4" range so I think they have the shortest range guns in the game.

"You have to be realistic about these things." Logen Ninefingers.
 
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

Just be careful if you try to set up the table to include lots of terrain to block LOS really hampers your charges

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The general gist of warmachine/hordes games are that you WILL be running on turn 1, and probably most of turn 2 as well.

If you are facing AOEs, remember to spread out. Formation is much different than 40k. Each dude only needs to remain withing the command range of the leader model. That means you can actually spread out quite a bit. And even only 2-3 inches is plenty to keep AOEs from tagging too many guys.

And most things charge farther than 7". Khador jacks in particular might have a base charge of 7"(plus melee range) but they have a TON of speed buffs. Like Boundless Charge.

Menoth doesn't have many speed buffs at all, and only a couple that effect jacks. The way Menoth(and just about everyone in fact) gets into melee is to have infantry screen warjacks, absorb the enemy's first wave, and then use that breathing room to get the jacks into melee.

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Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Is there a way for units to boost or get higher damage to take down war jacks?

For the guy who leaves it all on the field (because he doesn't pick up after the game).
Keep on rolling  
   
Made in us
Wraith






When a unit (or anything, for the most part) charges into melee the initial attack is boosted, so if enough models in the unit can charge into melee range they can be a serious threat to warjacks, especially if they're weapon masters.

There are also certain spells and feats that can help, and units that can perform Combined Melee Attacks can also potentially threaten warjacks.
   
Made in gb
Knight Exemplar




UK

You can also out manuver them, to get back strikes which will give you some tasty bonuses if you manage to be outside of their LOS for the whole turn.

 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Ratbot- the initial charge damage is boosted not the attack.

there are a lot of spells that can boost attack and/or damage rolls and also a lot of feats. Every faction has access to something to increase their kill efficiencey.
   
Made in us
Wraith






Whoops, I meant damage, not attack. I have a really bad habit of playing fast and loose with terminology that I should get out of.
   
Made in nz
Longtime Dakkanaut



New Zealand

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
Is there a way for units to boost or get higher damage to take down war jacks?

I'm pretty sure that if you tried to list all the ways that you can increase the damage output of a unit in Warmachine you would hit some form of post size limit on the forums. So in short - yes definitely lol. With an average P+S of 10 a unit of charging infantry are still going to do respectable damage, even against a heavy jack, because your damage is automatically boosted on the charge which against ARM18/19 should get you at least 1 damage per hit (obviously this isn't as effective when its an ARM20+ Khador jack, but high ARM is kinda their thing). Note that the way the bell curve works with damage calculations means that your actual average damage per model is actually higher than 1, its somewhat confusing math but essentially the ARM calculation means that your low dice rolls are irrelevant and your dice spikes swing the average up.

And yes a 7" threat range (remember its really 7.5" because of engagement ranges, and 9" if you have Reach) is terrible, but assuming you are talking about Khador jacks here the idea is they have the ARM to tank through the initial hit. Without the charge bonus there are plenty of units which will struggle against jacks and there are just as many units which won't be doing that much even with the charge. In some matchups those ARM25 Khador jacks can just sit in a zone all game and never die.

There are just as many counters to long range shooting as well. That Khador mortar struggles to hit even low DEF heavy jacks, its only a dangerously high POW on the direct hit so high ARM models can easily live through the blast damage, or you can just spread out and only lose 1-2 guys. That's ignoring any form of special ability, just off the top of my head there are ways to make models immune to blast damage, boost ARM (so the blast won't hurt you) or control the direct of the scatter to minimise damage.

Imo the easiest way to approach this game is to understand that almost every ability/unit/spell in the game is OP .... in the right circumstance. Being able to hit someone from the other side of the board is useless if it won't do damage, being able to Berserk and kill hordes of infantry is of no use when you are trying to punch a Colossal to death etc etc.
   
Made in us
Satyxis Raider






Seattle, WA

Remember that this is a game of rock paper scissors (Spock lizard etc). There is a counter for everything of there.

I gave some extreme examples but there's are counters to them all. The key is to make a balanced force that way you always have an answer to a problem.
   
 
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