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So I've seen a lot of people agree that generally Orks, Nids, DA, and BA are some of the lower tier armies in terms of power/competitiveness. In your minds what could be done to level the playing field? I'll start.

As far as DA, I think most of their stuff is okay, just overpriced. I think dropping the points a little would definitely help them. Also, a lot of the special characters suffer from virtually no AP2 weapons, other than Powerfists. Bumping some of the "killer" ICs to have AP 2 weapons would fix this. (Okay, not everyone, but at least give Azrael an AP2. His weapon is two-handed!) Also, I think their biggest issue is the weakness of their flyer and AA. Short of Flakk Missiles and a Quad Gun, they have no real AA. Fix that and I think they would be more mid-tier than low tier.

What are your guys' thoughts for fixing some of the "weak" codices?

jreilly89 wrote:So I've seen a lot of people agree that...

... So?

jreilly89 wrote:What are your guys' thoughts for fixing some of the "weak" codices?

Some people think they're weak, so they need to be fixed? What if some people think they're fine as they are?

Finding two players to agree on game balance in 40k is like finding two identical snowflakes.

I don't think it's the "weak" codices that need to be fixed. The gap between tyranids and grey knights, for example, is less than the gap between grey knights and Eldar. A better solution is to nerf the "top-tier" armies, because there are fewer of them.

Because let's face it, back in 6th when we whined that the new codices weren't making the old lower tier stuff good enough we got Tau, then Eldar back-to-back. 2 formerly mediocre armies became pretty ridiculous, though 7th has toned tau way down.

But to the OP, I think DA could benefit from Grav. BA need stuff to be cheaper, and nids need their 'thropes to be independent characters.

I would reccommend that you take a look at the player pool in general for your local gaming group in question. Give out handicaps to the less experienced players in the form of bonus Victory points or list building points in order to even things out. that would be my suggestion.

 Ailaros wrote:

jreilly89 wrote:So I've seen a lot of people agree that...

... So?

Hey, thanks for the thought-provoking input! Oh wait!

Some people think they're weak, so they need to be fixed? What if some people think they're fine as they are?

Not some people, A LOT of people. Wen the majority of game tournaments are won by one of three or four codices, doesn't that strike you as wrong?

Finding two players to agree on game balance in 40k is like finding two identical snowflakes.

Is it that impossible to believe that people could agree on codex balance? Haven't even touched the game rules, but the power level between codices should be easier to balance.

I don't really think orks or nids are that weak to be honest. Nids have their dakka flyrants and dakkafex broods, which are pretty awesome. If anything, the one problem with the nid codex is internal balance. Depending on what missions you're playing however, nids can have practically endless objective secured units thanks to tervigons. Like I said, their primary issue is that they're one dimensional when you're trying to compete - some choices are clearly better than others.

Orks are in a good place right now. They have the best AA in the game so they can deal with FMC and flyers well. Rokkit spam with tankbustas is pretty strong too: against any army with vehicles, you're almost guaranteed first blood with extra points while MC-heavy armies will dread your S8 AP3 rokkits. I honestly don't understand why orks are considered to be so bad. People keep bringing up mob rule like it's something new that our backfield fire support sucks at sticking around, but that was the case with the last codex too. You brought 15 lootas, enemy killed 6, you took Ld and you either passed or you didn't. Same thing now, except you have a chance to stick around even if you only have a handful of guys left.

As for DA and BA: they're marine books whose one weakness is that they're old. If prices were adjusted so they matched C:SM, there wouldn't be anything wrong with these books. With how fast codexes are coming out I don't think BA and DA players will have to wait much longer till their armies are improved. At any rate, I wouldn't worry about these guys!

As an ork player: orks are fine, but 99.999% of ork players are unwilling to get creative. The thought is "I should be able to take nothing but 30 man blob squads with boyz, maybe a couple units of killa kanz, then Ghazghkull, March straight across the board and win if I get into melee with more than a quarter of my force left.

The new Dex Nerfed that mindless style of play heavily while buffing all the optional gubbinz you can use to support your boyz.

the_scotsman wrote:
As an ork player: orks are fine, but 99.999% of ork players are unwilling to get creative. The thought is "I should be able to take nothing but 30 man blob squads with boyz, maybe a couple units of killa kanz, then Ghazghkull, March straight across the board and win if I get into melee with more than a quarter of my force left.

The new Dex Nerfed that mindless style of play heavily while buffing all the optional gubbinz you can use to support your boyz.

The funny thing is, green tide is still pretty viable too. Thanks to painboys, those big mobs might even make it across the field! I will agree though, that it's really the oddboys that have been improved greatly in the new book.

 Mumblez wrote:


As for DA and BA: they're marine books whose one weakness is that they're old. If prices were adjusted so they matched C:SM, there wouldn't be anything wrong with these books. With how fast codexes are coming out I don't think BA and DA players will have to wait much longer till their armies are improved. At any rate, I wouldn't worry about these guys!

DA were the third book in sixth, they are not old. The DA have been the test book for vanilla twice now.IMO the new units were cool and the models great but our rules do not compare to the vanilla dex.

While the DA got some neat stuff, in terms of what vanilla got there is no real comparison. The only thing that is close is ravenwing and that is arguably equal to white scars.

 FirePainter wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:


As for DA and BA: they're marine books whose one weakness is that they're old. If prices were adjusted so they matched C:SM, there wouldn't be anything wrong with these books. With how fast codexes are coming out I don't think BA and DA players will have to wait much longer till their armies are improved. At any rate, I wouldn't worry about these guys!

DA were the third book in sixth, they are not old. The DA have been the test book for vanilla twice now.IMO the new units were cool and the models great but our rules do not compare to the vanilla dex.

While the DA got some neat stuff, in terms of what vanilla got there is no real comparison. The only thing that is close is ravenwing and that is arguably equal to white scars.

Especially given that vanilla got the Centurions, two fliers, and the Thunderfire cannon. I hope in the new edition of DA we get at least one or two of those things. I love the fluff and our models, but some of the rules just cannot compare

 jreilly89 wrote:
So I've seen a lot of people agree that generally Orks, Nids, DA, and BA are some of the lower tier armies in terms of power/competitiveness. In your minds what could be done to level the playing field? I'll start.

As far as DA, I think most of their stuff is okay, just overpriced. I think dropping the points a little would definitely help them. Also, a lot of the special characters suffer from virtually no AP2 weapons, other than Powerfists. Bumping some of the "killer" ICs to have AP 2 weapons would fix this. (Okay, not everyone, but at least give Azrael an AP2. His weapon is two-handed!) Also, I think their biggest issue is the weakness of their flyer and AA. Short of Flakk Missiles and a Quad Gun, they have no real AA. Fix that and I think they would be more mid-tier than low tier.

What are your guys' thoughts for fixing some of the "weak" codices?

With regard to DA, I think the lack of anti-flyer stuff is a problem for a lot of armies at the moment.

However, I think the best solution is simply to change the core rules. Currently, flier rules are illogical, don't mesh with the rest of 40k (where speed has always been represented by saves), and are just bad game design (Snapshots should never have been put in the game, let alone made a core part of a unit's rules).

So, I'd recommend changing fliers such they they have a permanent jink save (possibly dependant on how far they moved), and alter point costs accordingly.


BAs are outdated, so it might be best to just see what happens with them when they get a new book.

Orks probably could do with a better thought-out Mob Rule table (I believe there were some good suggestions in another thread recently). Perhaps also vehicles that can withstand a light sneeze. Not really sure what else they need, to be honest.

Nids could do with being written by someone who isn't recovering from a lobotomy. They're also one of the worst victims of the dreaded "equal pricing" syndrome, but that seems to be an unwritten rule these days. One which badly needs to die.

 FirePainter wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:


As for DA and BA: they're marine books whose one weakness is that they're old. If prices were adjusted so they matched C:SM, there wouldn't be anything wrong with these books. With how fast codexes are coming out I don't think BA and DA players will have to wait much longer till their armies are improved. At any rate, I wouldn't worry about these guys!

DA were the third book in sixth, they are not old. The DA have been the test book for vanilla twice now.IMO the new units were cool and the models great but our rules do not compare to the vanilla dex.

While the DA got some neat stuff, in terms of what vanilla got there is no real comparison. The only thing that is close is ravenwing and that is arguably equal to white scars.

Just to point out here, but IIRC, the hardback codex releases - excluding all the supplements, have been:
Chaos Marines --> Dark Angels --> Daemons --> Tau --> Eldar --> AM/IG --> Codex Marines --> Tyranids --> Orks --> Space Puppies --> Grey Knights --> Dark Eldar. (I might have IG/Marines mixed up, but I'm pretty sure that's about right!)

As for balancing the so-called "bottom tier" armies, the best way is as mentioned above - nerf the 1 or 2 or so real "problem books" like Eldar, while amending the overtly obnoxious aspects of the rest such as;
Tau: require more than 2 Markerlights to gain 'uber bonuses & make HYMP's + Ion Accelerator more expensive.
Eldar: re-work the Serpent Shield entirely, cap Fortune's re-roll ability to remove the potential for re-rolled 2++ saves.
Space Marines: re-work the Grav Gun.
Daemons: army-wide cap to invuln saves at 3++, thus removing the 2++ re-roll shenanigans.

For the most part, the overall balance currently in 7th is much better than 5th's. It's really just a handful of stand-out options/combos that need serious nerf bat beatings.