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Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=126&aff=127&aft=565979&afv=topic&afpgj=4#1292850

John-Paul wrote:To answer your questions and help update you all.
1. The old site will remain alive and active for all the people who paid to use the site prior to when Gregg stopped adding things a few months ago for the next year.

2. The old site will not get any new content or updates at all and no new people will be able to sign up. It is being left open just for the people who paid Gregg the money in the past so you will get one more full years use out of it before it closes for good.

3. The new site for both the Forces of War and the digital App for books will both be for living product. If you purchase the product then each time it gets changed or updated in any way you will have that automatically so you will only ever pay for a list or a book once. This means that any errata's and corrections are automatically updated to your list/book.

4. The new site will go live with the latest book and lists at the start and then we will slowly add older content in between the new books and lists coming.

5. Complete digital books are going to be a 25% cheaper than the printed ones so US$15 for a standard book.

6. Individual digital companies will be the US$3 each in digital format. These are complete companies with everything you need for the force in one place and are on average 12-14 pages in length. The have all the national rules, company special rules, the company diagram and every unit you can take plus a complete arsenal for the force. This is all you need to play with that single force just as if they were a book all by themselves. Rating variants will be in the same company so some of the lists will give you two or three variants and some will be single companies.

7. Forces of War company lists will be US$1 each with rating variants included in this price just like the digital version. If you buy an entire book of lists in one go then you will get a 25% discount so you will pay between about US$5 for a average book of six to seven lists.

All of this added up means that if you purchase the paper product at US$20 you will be paying almost the same money for the digital book and force building lists. If you want it all you would end up spending $40 for everything which is only US$10 more than you were paying till now just for the paper product but you get all the digital product as well. I hope the madness behind our plan and pricing strategy now is clear

We are just doing the final testing on both of these items and they should be coming your way very soon so you can all have a look and see what you think.
As always these are all for you to choose to use or not and the paper products will continue as always if digital is not your cup of tea.

JP


UPDATE 6 NOV 2014

Chris at Battlefront wrote:And this thread has run its course...

But before I lock it - some quick comments or answers
1 - As some of you have reiterated FOW Digital and Forces of War are two different products, doing different things, for use in different ways. You might buy one or the other, neither or both. Choice is good for everyone.
2 - Both products will be available ASAP (we want them out even more than you guys). Digital has run into a little speed bump regarding the licensing of the embedded PDF viewer and whilst we think we have a solution it needs a final round of checking.
3 - Digital will have a mix of free and paid products. The app itself will be free so you download it (and the free content) and not have to pay a cent.
4 - Timings of releases: yep we wanted to Digital to be out before Barbarossa so people who did not want to buy the paper version could have another option. It didn't work out that way... we are not happy about that either. Once the app is out and available this shouldn't be a problem in the future...
5 - We are still on track for an iPad release of Digital this month, just not this week (as it has not been submitted to Apple yet for final approvals - see comment 2).

Once we have submitted it to Apple (and heard something back) we will let everyone know.

Chris


UPDATE 13 NOV 2014


Posted By Chris at Battlefront on 14 Nov 2014 10:45 AM
So many questions - will try to address some of them...

Where is it? Unfortunately our developers advised a couple of weeks ago that the PDF reader that was being implemented had had significant changes in how it is licensed which forced us to look at a new product. Before confirming that it was okay to spend the time changing the software we wanted to do some testing. That has been done and they are not making the changes to the app. Once that is complete we will need to do a final round of testing and submit it to Apple. I am waiting for confirmation from them on the timeline for all of this.

Why is it not out yet? I know... it should have been out months ago... It has been an interesting experience and my hat goes off to app developers who are reading this.

Amazon Fire Availability? At this point in time we only have IOS and Android planned?

Why iPad only and not <insert device here>? Looking at the users that browse the website as our best indication we could see (thanks to the magic of Google Analytics which tracks everything you and I do on the internet) the highest group of non-PC users were iPad users. If you collectively bundled all of the various Android devices togetherthey would barely out number the iPad people - I just rechecked the numbers, for every 1 Samsung Galaxy S IV user, there are 18 iPad users on the site and 12.5 iPhone users. There was also significantly more complexity in building the app to suit the wide range of Android devices, screen sizes etc etc. Given how long the "simpler" option has taken I think we made a good choice... Also need to add that it is iPad, not iPhone compatible at this time.

Will Digital (as opposed to Forces Of War) work offline? Yes... assuming you have downloaded your content.

Free Content? The app will be free, there will be free content in the app.

Search function? Yes. I need to get the final implementation of the app in my hands to confirm 100% what interactive features will be in there. Our intent was searching, book marking and anything else we could add to make life easier for you (and me) when using it.

Rulebook? Definitely been discussed but I cannot recall off hand - but lets go with "its on the plan" and I'll reserve the right to be incorrect later

Will I have a competitive advantage from having the app? You will have your books, erratas, updates etc on your device ready to read at a moments notice - whether that is whilst gaming or just whilst scheming up new lists on the train. That would be useful to me as both a social and competitive gamer, but probably no more of an advantage than someone that remembered to carry all of these things?


"I'm old and change scares me"

I did chuckle at that... as someone that does not own a Kindle because I like paper book I can understand where some of you guys are coming from. I guess though we have to bear in mind that things change and we (as an organisation) need to embrace technology. Things like Digital will make life easier for some of our existing gamers and hopefully make it easier for some new players to adopt Flames Of War. I think we can all agree that anything that helps you get a new player into our shared hobby is probably a good thing.

Having been involved in the project since day 1 I am obviously a little biased, but I know (assuming it works properly ) that it will be a great addition to the Flames Of War product range, and if I were a regular customer I would download it and give it a go. I would definitely spend the couple of bucks to buy any lists that I was planning on building an army for because it is just handy to have should I be sitting round the table doing a little list noodling with friends (which happens to be most Saturday afternoons).


Now, its back to trying to work out how the back end of iTunes works so I can get all of the books set up in the system ready for downloading!


Thanks
Chris



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/11 02:25:32


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Painting Within the Lines






Northern California

Without seeing the complete product this all seems completely reasonable to me. Sure, it'll suck not being able to get all the lists in a book for the "practically givin' it away" sum of $2, but these prices aren't bad at all. I'm curious as to what an "individual digital company" (Item 6) is. Does this mean that if I buy a "U.S. Armored Rifle Company" that I'll have access to every way to build a list that is centered around the ARC?

If it's just an individual company with all of the options then why go with that instead of just spending $1 on the list?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 05:21:35


Casual wargamer, casual painter, casual grad student. I can do formal though, I do own a tuxedo T-shirt.

My wargaming blog: http://headspigot.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






A small town at the foothills of the beautiful Cascade Mountains

Yeah, that pricing sounds fair. Now I just hope that the product itself is of good quality / design. Mez

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 06:14:40


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 econtutor wrote:
Without seeing the complete product this all seems completely reasonable to me. Sure, it'll suck not being able to get all the lists in a book for the "practically givin' it away" sum of $2, but these prices aren't bad at all. I'm curious as to what an "individual digital company" (Item 6) is. Does this mean that if I buy a "U.S. Armored Rifle Company" that I'll have access to every way to build a list that is centered around the ARC?

If it's just an individual company with all of the options then why go with that instead of just spending $1 on the list?


I'm guessing individual lists are formatted and browsable like mini-books but just with just the relevant sections (culled from the full book) for the specified company. And therefore only the book specific stuff for the theatre/operation in question. The Forces of War lists will be just the same as Easy Army, a database list builder.

So the question: "why pay for the book when you can get the list?" is really just the same as it has always been with printed books and EA. The digital books aren't active list builders, they are drop in alternatives for the printed books for people who prefer digital media. With a few advantages such as automatic updating.
   
Made in ru
Drew_Riggio




Russia

 econtutor wrote:
I'm curious as to what an "individual digital company" (Item 6) is. Does this mean that if I buy a "U.S. Armored Rifle Company" that I'll have access to every way to build a list that is centered around the ARC?
If it's just an individual company with all of the options then why go with that instead of just spending $1 on the list?

item 6 - you get U.S.Armored Rifle Company (Italy) - from Fortress Europe, etc.. something like that free briefings on bf site (except it would be cuts from big books)

are writer, not reader
FB DE 1-0-0 | 1-1-0 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

I've just read the latest WI. The mechanised infantry lists for Jordanians (and Egyptians) are not in the book but are to be released as part of Flames of War Digital. :( Since I don't own an 'i' device I'm currently quite unimpressed.

Since I'm now tied to their digital output it better not end up being a clunky pile of arse like PP's offering.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
Major





Central,ILL. USA

 George Spiggott wrote:
I've just read the latest WI. The mechanised infantry lists for Jordanians (and Egyptians) are not in the book but are to be released as part of Flames of War Digital. :( Since I don't own an 'i' device I'm currently quite unimpressed.

Since I'm now tied to their digital output it better not end up being a clunky pile of arse like PP's offering.


I just hope that this does not end up like the GW BL digital books.If they start becoming more GWish i guess i am out and will start playing battle group.Bad enough i iam already getting dischanted with the rules..

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

On the plus sire at least I know a mechanized infantry list is coming out. It's a shame that the (paper) book isn't a one stop shop for the lists for FoaN.

I also discovered that Jordanians are getting jeeps with recoil-less rifles which I should be able to knock up cheaply enough from jeeps and spare recoil-less rifles from the M113 kits and they're getting the semi-indirect fire rule on their tanks.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

BF have suggested checking out WI Digital for a preview of what to expect from FoW Digital. Having downloaded WI Digital I'm not terribly impressed, it crashes frequently, won't zoom pages that have 'features' making them difficult to read and has a fairly rudimentary bookmark system. The free preview issue of WI that comes with WI Digital feels terribly rushed and the whole thing fills me with dread for this being the only way to access almost half on the Arab content for FoaN.

To add to that WI Digital also suffers from BF's now infamous inability to meet deadlines. The current WI issue isn't available yet on the Digital app. FoW Digital also seems to suffer from this as the latest issue of WI announces that the FoW Digital app is out now (for i devices) but it isn't on the App store yet.

[edt] Their web page says it's out for i devices in November (no specific date specified).

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=108&art_id=4532

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/28 22:12:27


Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

New information in first post.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

How long can it possibly take to stick a different icon on WI Digital? Unfortunately a pair of White Knights managed to get the thread locked.

JP of Battlefront via Ghaz wrote:As always these are all for you to choose to use or not and the paper products will continue as always if digital is not your cup of tea.
This is provably false according to the info in the FoaN article in the latest WI.

[edit] Quote shortened for clarity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/07 02:30:26


Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

They had planned to have it out for the release of Barbarossa, but they ran into an unexpected problem with the licensing of the embedded PDF viewer.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

Key bit is the "free to choose paper products" bit.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User



Oz

You're free to choose, you just won't get it all though depending on your choice....
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY


Posted By Chris at Battlefront on 14 Nov 2014 10:45 AM
So many questions - will try to address some of them...

Where is it? Unfortunately our developers advised a couple of weeks ago that the PDF reader that was being implemented had had significant changes in how it is licensed which forced us to look at a new product. Before confirming that it was okay to spend the time changing the software we wanted to do some testing. That has been done and they are not making the changes to the app. Once that is complete we will need to do a final round of testing and submit it to Apple. I am waiting for confirmation from them on the timeline for all of this.

Why is it not out yet? I know... it should have been out months ago... It has been an interesting experience and my hat goes off to app developers who are reading this.

Amazon Fire Availability? At this point in time we only have IOS and Android planned?

Why iPad only and not <insert device here>? Looking at the users that browse the website as our best indication we could see (thanks to the magic of Google Analytics which tracks everything you and I do on the internet) the highest group of non-PC users were iPad users. If you collectively bundled all of the various Android devices togetherthey would barely out number the iPad people - I just rechecked the numbers, for every 1 Samsung Galaxy S IV user, there are 18 iPad users on the site and 12.5 iPhone users. There was also significantly more complexity in building the app to suit the wide range of Android devices, screen sizes etc etc. Given how long the "simpler" option has taken I think we made a good choice... Also need to add that it is iPad, not iPhone compatible at this time.

Will Digital (as opposed to Forces Of War) work offline? Yes... assuming you have downloaded your content.

Free Content? The app will be free, there will be free content in the app.

Search function? Yes. I need to get the final implementation of the app in my hands to confirm 100% what interactive features will be in there. Our intent was searching, book marking and anything else we could add to make life easier for you (and me) when using it.

Rulebook? Definitely been discussed but I cannot recall off hand - but lets go with "its on the plan" and I'll reserve the right to be incorrect later

Will I have a competitive advantage from having the app? You will have your books, erratas, updates etc on your device ready to read at a moments notice - whether that is whilst gaming or just whilst scheming up new lists on the train. That would be useful to me as both a social and competitive gamer, but probably no more of an advantage than someone that remembered to carry all of these things?


"I'm old and change scares me"

I did chuckle at that... as someone that does not own a Kindle because I like paper book I can understand where some of you guys are coming from. I guess though we have to bear in mind that things change and we (as an organisation) need to embrace technology. Things like Digital will make life easier for some of our existing gamers and hopefully make it easier for some new players to adopt Flames Of War. I think we can all agree that anything that helps you get a new player into our shared hobby is probably a good thing.

Having been involved in the project since day 1 I am obviously a little biased, but I know (assuming it works properly ) that it will be a great addition to the Flames Of War product range, and if I were a regular customer I would download it and give it a go. I would definitely spend the couple of bucks to buy any lists that I was planning on building an army for because it is just handy to have should I be sitting round the table doing a little list noodling with friends (which happens to be most Saturday afternoons).


Now, its back to trying to work out how the back end of iTunes works so I can get all of the books set up in the system ready for downloading!


Thanks
Chris




'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Here is something that totally baffles me about Battlefront.

1) Books are an incredibly low profit margin product to sell unless you can do ridiculously high volumes (like Harry Potter).
2) Miniatures are a much more profitable product than books are.
3) Battlefront has announced that they're lowering the price of their books. This will further diminish the amount of money they will actually make from them.
4) None of their books has ever made me buy their models. I have also bought very few of their books mostly because they suffer from GWitis, they get replaced too quickly.
5) I have bought entire platoons and armies because of tinkering I have been able to do on Easy Army. Many people I know who play FoW also buy lots of models after tinkering sessions on Easy Army.
6) I will only buy lists on Easy Army I absolutely need now. In the past I have had the relative freedom to tinker wih lists I never even knew existed because of Easy Army and bought models that had lists in books I didn't even know the name of.
7) This will stop happening with their new, terrible business model.

Doesn't Battlefront realize how much money they have made from Easy Army? Don't they see that this will probably cost them veteran players which can be very damaging in the gaming industry?

Not sure why these companies don't just give all their rules and lists away for free like Infinity does. Why do you want my $30 for a book when my $30 for miniatures makes you a lot more money?

 
   
Made in us
Raw SDF-1 Recruit





Temecula, CA

If I recall correctly, that money wasn't going to Battlefront, it was going to the guy who was running Easy Army. The way it sounds there will still be a bit of tinkering and you can buy single lists as required.

I think they saw how successful Easy Army is, people have been asking for digital books, and now they want to profit from it. Smart move on their part really.

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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




I think the point was that EA made BF a lot of money by helping to shift a lot of models.

Kasrkinlegion: you are mostly correct although I think for the most part you are answering your own questions. Profit margins probably aren't great in the book sales but despite your own perceptions BF have been selling books and models since long before EA and obviously the books have historically helped sell the models.

Beyond which the book/list development is a key step in BFs product lifecycle so a significant so part of the development costsof the books (the authoring) is done anyway regardless of what medium they release it through.

Looking at book sales in isolation as a way of making money is the wrong to look at the business. Although they will suffer some loss of income in reducing book pricing the overall strategy seems to be to broaden access to their lists by releasing it (affordably) in coordinated way across media.

Agreed it will probably cost them a bit in overall business just by making the lists a bit more expensive although I've always expected BF to go into digital at some point and its not surprising that EA has been a casualty. But they seem to be trying to ameliorate the costs to some degree.
   
Made in us
Oberleutnant





My problem with the digital offering is that it costs entirely too much to bother with.

Maybe if I hadn't started before it was available and could slow roll a few books and lists as my collection has grown, but to jump in it now just costs too much without any tangible benefit.

I play a lot of Privateer Press as well and their "model" allows me to support both the book form and the electronic offerings. With them I get the book to study my options, and my opponents, and then use the app to build the list and play off of.

The price point per list or book is just too steep, especially given it would be duplications of what I already own. That money is better spent by me in getting more models to allow more options of lists to play.







 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Shotgun wrote:
The price point per list or book is just too steep, especially given it would be duplications of what I already own. That money is better spent by me in getting more models to allow more options of lists to play.


So what you're saying, then, is that you couldn't afford the physical books prior to last month?

Battlefront has cut the prices of their books rather dramatically. Given the example prices that Battlefront has provided, you're now paying less for a hardcopy book and the digital lists than you used to pay for just the hardcopy book.
   
Made in us
Oberleutnant





No, I get that the new price of a book and the e-version is roughly the same as an old book before. However, I have the books released to date, and at $15 to gain access to those books that I already have...its not worth it to me to do that.

That may change if they drop some of the larger compilation books like Grey Wolf at a later date, but right now, I won't be purchasing this.







 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

BF just confimed that most of the digital exclusive stuff will be paid for. So the book price reduction has turned to thin air. The physical books just have less content now and the difference is made up in paid for digital content. So now you pay the same ammount but get a fragmented product. Poor showing from BF.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Oh boy...

That's the sort of thing that's just going to piss off the FLGS owners...
My FLGS was unhappy when they found out that Privateer Press was undercutting stores with their online offering (Warmahordes is pretty big there), and that was just a straight reprint of what was in the books. If BF is actually including *extra* lists that can be obtained by purchasing the book online...

That's a *very* stupid move on their part.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Main Man






Beast Coast

 George Spiggott wrote:
BF just confimed that most of the digital exclusive stuff will be paid for. So the book price reduction has turned to thin air. The physical books just have less content now and the difference is made up in paid for digital content. So now you pay the same ammount but get a fragmented product. Poor showing from BF.



Where have they said that the books are going to have less content than before?

   
Made in do
Major




In a van down by the river

He's referring to FoaN which does not have all the lists as some are digital-only. I'm uncertain if these are previously released lists removed (where I could understand torches and pitchforks) or new lists omitted from the book (still annoying, but not infuriating in my book).

I'm looking forward to Digital still, but BF is making quite a few missteps in their roll-out of this and Forces. Unforced errors at that, as it's not like another contractor or vendor is dropping the ball with these decisions...
   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

I wish they had Forces of War up and running... I was trying to plot out a Russian army from Barbarossa and being able to put together a list is the easiest way to create a buy list and with Easy Army not updating, I can't quickly build the list and buy what I want based on the list.

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Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

 Krinsath wrote:
He's referring to FoaN which does not have all the lists as some are digital-only.
Correct. Clearly the print version of Barbarossa was similary stunted. Things might be great. This app that they've been royally stuffing up for the last three months or so may turn out to be a stable bug free product when it finally arrives.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Based on comments I'd read, I had thought that the app had been submitted to Apple, and the only hold up at this point was waiting for Apple to submit their approval.

That is apparently not the case.

This was posted on the FoW forum yesterday by a Battlefront Staff Member -

Got a new build of DIgital from the developers, will download tomorrow and install. Hopefully everything will be wonderful and awesome, and then we can submit it to Apple...

Chris


>.<
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Could have been the last submission needed tweaking and Apple wouldn't approve it

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




Perhaps. But if that were the case, then it would have been nice of BF to let everyone know that the ball was back in their court. In response to the quote above, someone on the forum asked for a clarification from BF about what exactly is going on. So maybe we'll get some further info.
   
 
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