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The BRB was updated today, and the 50% lords/heroes is now confirmed as the new norm.
Lore of Undeath likewise has been thrown into the BRB.
Looks like hero-hammer is the the way forward.
Time to dig out the Sword of Anti-heroes.

How will this change your armies?

-Matt

Hmm that's really interesting that its now in the big rulebook.

It will let me bring double furnaces and a grey seer on a bell in a list haha not sure it will effect how I play because I probably wouldn't use those rules (at least not at the flgs anyways)

I think its horrible, Empire with 3 Runefangs, double daemon prince, double bell skaven, MORE flying 1+ save dark elf heroes.... I just think its a terrible new rule to have, the current edition (Minus the undead rules) were so balanced

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

How will this change your armies?

-Matt

Unfortunately, neither of my armies have access to the Sword of Anti Heroes (Dwarves and DoC). {Well, maybe DoC could get it by sacrificing a gift...?}

Hmm, I can finally use all of my Phoenix models in a single game. I am definitely looking forward to that.

Mostly I look forward to actually having the option of a 10 man unit charging a large infantry block and actually being able to kill enough models to break them.

I am also looking forward to fielding some mounted dragons now that I can also take a Lv4 with them.

Well I guess they meant the literall end times of warhammer as we know it............

Looks like house rules here we come.


What i dont get is why they would create rules that take away from their profits. Very unlike GW to do that. Heros and lords $ for points are much more cost effective.

My first two lists involve 3 bloodthirsters, double skullcannon, and a wall of frenzied Khorne heralds. Or 4 peg characters and chaff dark elves.


Fun is now a dead concept in terms of warhammer.

Hero hammer never was, isn't, nor will it ever be fun.

 therealsuperman wrote:
I think its horrible, Empire with 3 Runefangs, double daemon prince, double bell skaven, MORE flying 1+ save dark elf heroes.... I just think its a terrible new rule to have, the current edition (Minus the undead rules) were so balanced

Double bell skaven would be pretty ineffective in my opinion lol I can see much better ways of spending my 50% on lords and 50 on heroes

Meh. It won't affect me much. Will allow a fully kitted LVL 4 for DOC at 2k though, I guess that's better than a few extra horrors.

I am really curious to see how tournment organizers handle this. I dont see this going well in the tournment scene. It opens things up like nagash, ect. I dont see that working out so well for most armies.

I really don't understand the problem here. Step Up, Supporting Attacks and Steadfast have already blunted the power of melee characters, wizards are still limited by the 12-dice maximum, and Dragons are still cannon-bait. All it means is that your Gutstar can now be 75% of the points instead of 50% with the tradeoff of losing Supporting Attacks.

How many armies is this going to effect? You could run a Vampire Lord at full Bloodline and Magic, but you could already almost do that. Or you could run 2 Dragons at the same time and run into twice the issues with Steadfast.
Really the only army I can imagine gaining significantly is Daemons, if they fancy spamming out 10+ Exalted Flamers. But otherwise I think the extra ~600pts of Lords would be far better spent on a couple of new Hordes.

I'm with Mozzamanx mostly for the reasons listed, but also because it means newer players who bought a bunch of characters early on(which is pretty common in my experience) can get to playable faster and gradually grow to more RnF models as they learn that Herohammer doesn't work as well with the 8th core rules.

Same here...
The only way this gets out of hand is if as players we suddenly all decide to be giant donkey-caves to each other.

If someone seriously goes out of their way to build a ridiculous '0 fun to be had' list, then don't play them! (I already refuse to play against any of the local HE players for example, because they refuse to leave their damn banner at home vs. my un-optimised Tzeentch Daemons - so I just say **** 'em.)

Tournaments will continue to do what they do and re-write the game to fit what version they want to play.

Not really seeing the problem here, other than it's now possible against to play the old 6th edition "The Seven Knights" scenario, of an 'army' of just characters vs. a standard army! (that scenario was awesome fun, and typically, the "heroes" never won in the end)

Yay, more Waystalkers!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Same here...
The only way this gets out of hand is if as players we suddenly all decide to be giant donkey-caves to each other.

If someone seriously goes out of their way to build a ridiculous '0 fun to be had' list, then don't play them! (I already refuse to play against any of the local HE players for example, because they refuse to leave their damn banner at home vs. my un-optimised Tzeentch Daemons - so I just say **** 'em.)

Tournaments will continue to do what they do and re-write the game to fit what version they want to play.

Not really seeing the problem here, other than it's now possible against to play the old 6th edition "The Seven Knights" scenario, of an 'army' of just characters vs. a standard army! (that scenario was awesome fun, and typically, the "heroes" never won in the end)

Look up at my post and check the list I recently posted. 3 1+ armour combat peg characters, a level 4 peg caster, dark riders bolt throwers and warlocks. The list was bad enough with the 25% restrictions.

It's not the people who go overboard that are the problem. It's the people who abuse it sensibly that are.

Well, there goes all the finesse in building a list in fantasy.

So another one of my future predicaments has come true. The rules in end times stand for everyone. I say HAHA to all you who said it just a scenario dumb arse's lol

On topic I think it is great time to bring azhag kroak and all the fun guys back.

Seriously guys. How much finesse was there to large unbreakable combat block + Level 4 caster + max cannons (or your similar multiple wound killer)? Now you might see a + lord level combat character mixed into that! There is a definite reason they are doing this reboot to warhammer fantasy, 8ed has been abysmal in terms of maintaining player base and sales. Having to collect huge units to even think of winning is not conductive to attracting new players.

You still cannot fully play hero hammer like back in 5ed as the casters are still limited in their dice pools and combat characters still have an incredibly difficult time breaking a 40 model unit in a timely manner (and if you bring multiple characters in a death star then have fun with save or die, redirectors, and warmachine sniping). BTW I started playing in hero hammer, unless you played in that edition you just cannot comprehend how powerful a pimped out lord on emperor dragon was.

Keep in mind the core tax was not reduced and the points for these heroes has to come from somewhere. aka that means less bolt throwers, warlocks, and/or dark riders.

Honestly doesn't change much for my skaven. Beyond a level 4 caster, high level skaven don't sink much points into characters; it's all about rares.

By all means, bring more high cost heroes and lords. Warp Lightning Cannon gonna Warp Lightning Cannon.

ansacs wrote:
Keep in mind the core tax was not reduced and the points for these heroes has to come from somewhere. aka that means less bolt throwers, warlocks, and/or dark riders.

This

streamdragon wrote:Honestly doesn't change much for my skaven. Beyond a level 4 caster, high level skaven don't sink much points into characters; it's all about rares.

By all means, bring more high cost heroes and lords. Warp Lightning Cannon gonna Warp Lightning Cannon.

And this.

This is only going to affect those armies that are already built around their uber-characters. Those books and lists that are built around their really good Specials and Rares aren't going to change because that's where all your opportunity cost to take advantage of this change is coming from.

 ansacs wrote:
Seriously guys. How much finesse was there to large unbreakable combat block + Level 4 caster + max cannons (or your similar multiple wound killer)? Now you might see a + lord level combat character mixed into that! There is a definite reason they are doing this reboot to warhammer fantasy, 8ed has been abysmal in terms of maintaining player base and sales. Having to collect huge units to even think of winning is not conductive to attracting new players.

You still cannot fully play hero hammer like back in 5ed as the casters are still limited in their dice pools and combat characters still have an incredibly difficult time breaking a 40 model unit in a timely manner (and if you bring multiple characters in a death star then have fun with save or die, redirectors, and warmachine sniping). BTW I started playing in hero hammer, unless you played in that edition you just cannot comprehend how powerful a pimped out lord on emperor dragon was.

Keep in mind the core tax was not reduced and the points for these heroes has to come from somewhere. aka that means less bolt throwers, warlocks, and/or dark riders.

A) Dark Elf power lists feature multiple combat characters 50% of the time. Fast Cav 1+ armour, or flying 1+ armour characters are good.

B) This isn't rebooting fantasy. This is driving sales. People buy the end times stuff for the models. Making the 50% character thing is just going to split the community.

C) I played during that edition. And I do not want to see any shadow of that edition return. 8th is still the best edition we've had. With balanced rules and books. Changing that is just going to make it worse.

D) I have 25 Dark Riders and 10 Warlocks. And 4 bolt throwers. And double Peg Dreadlord. And double Peg Master. And a peg level 4.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
A) Dark Elf power lists feature multiple combat characters 50% of the time. Fast Cav 1+ armour, or flying 1+ armour characters are good.

A unit of 21-30 white lions with BotWD is standard in competitive HE lists. If you allowed me to take 75% of my points in special it wouldn't increase the number of white lions I take. At a certain point you just get diminishing returns. I would not sacrifice warlock units in a DE list to take more peg heroes for example.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
B) This isn't rebooting fantasy. This is driving sales. People buy the end times stuff for the models. Making the 50% character thing is just going to split the community.

Exactly it is getting fantasy models to leave shelves where they have been stuck for years now. This 50% thing is going to make a bunch of nerdrage happen on the net and then nobody will even care anymore when the next edition comes out with the same thing.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
C) I played during that edition. And I do not want to see any shadow of that edition return. 8th is still the best edition we've had. With balanced rules and books. Changing that is just going to make it worse.

If you want a shadow of that edition it was most of 8ed when there were still army lists that could generate more power dice and you have these crazy save or die spells. 8ed has almost killed fantasy. Moving 1-2 large infantry blocks forward, 6 dicing your big 6th spell, and killing any monster with a single cannon shot every single game with no variation whatsoever is not a fun or balanced game. 8ed is repetitive and boring and it appears the sales figures back that up. The only interesting part of the entire game anymore is the chaff battle, once that gets decided (usually turn 2) the game is a routine script with luck determining the final outcome.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
D) I have 25 Dark Riders and 10 Warlocks. And 4 bolt throwers. And double Peg Dreadlord. And double Peg Master. And a peg level 4.

So how does this change anything? You still cannot take anymore bolt throwers or warlocks so the most ridiculous parts of your list are not going anywhere.

I already played (bye-buster) and ran a tournament using 50% for everyone
The top 3 players were still using regular armies (I think one had about 27% of Lords) percentage-wise
Any army that went far beyond the usual limits was very unbalanced and suffered against lots of armies that suddenly became hard counters

The positive aspect is that it allows certain (non-OP) builds or special characters for people that just alwasy wanted to field this or that kind of Lord (There was a Dwarf High King or Malekith for instance)

Bah, everyone's just getting butthurt because Wood Elves are now awesome with being able to build a whole third Waywatcher squad using heroes now.

 ansacs wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
A) Dark Elf power lists feature multiple combat characters 50% of the time. Fast Cav 1+ armour, or flying 1+ armour characters are good.

A unit of 21-30 white lions with BotWD is standard in competitive HE lists. If you allowed me to take 75% of my points in special it wouldn't increase the number of white lions I take. At a certain point you just get diminishing returns. I would not sacrifice warlock units in a DE list to take more peg heroes for example.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
B) This isn't rebooting fantasy. This is driving sales. People buy the end times stuff for the models. Making the 50% character thing is just going to split the community.

Exactly it is getting fantasy models to leave shelves where they have been stuck for years now. This 50% thing is going to make a bunch of nerdrage happen on the net and then nobody will even care anymore when the next edition comes out with the same thing.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
C) I played during that edition. And I do not want to see any shadow of that edition return. 8th is still the best edition we've had. With balanced rules and books. Changing that is just going to make it worse.

If you want a shadow of that edition it was most of 8ed when there were still army lists that could generate more power dice and you have these crazy save or die spells. 8ed has almost killed fantasy. Moving 1-2 large infantry blocks forward, 6 dicing your big 6th spell, and killing any monster with a single cannon shot every single game with no variation whatsoever is not a fun or balanced game. 8ed is repetitive and boring and it appears the sales figures back that up. The only interesting part of the entire game anymore is the chaff battle, once that gets decided (usually turn 2) the game is a routine script with luck determining the final outcome.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
D) I have 25 Dark Riders and 10 Warlocks. And 4 bolt throwers. And double Peg Dreadlord. And double Peg Master. And a peg level 4.

So how does this change anything? You still cannot take anymore bolt throwers or warlocks so the most ridiculous parts of your list are not going anywhere.

Just because YOUR region is dead does not mean that ALL regions are dead. WHFB has a thriving tournament scene, which is getting bigger ever year. There are twice as many GTs in my areas as there were last year. The US Masters is helping that out even more. There are dozens of vibrant WHFB podcasts, and every army has a vibrant and active army-specific forum. Even the Tomb Kings and Beastmen! I really don't get where this "WHFB is dying" nonsense keeps coming from. If any game is dying it's 40K, with two back-to-back dogshit editions of the core rules.


This change is going to affect 50% of the builds of 20% of the armies. Armies that spammed combat heroes (warriors, dark elves, lizardmen) will spam combat lords instead...at the cost of other units. Seriously...upgrading scar vets to old bloods means fewer stegs and rippers. Upgrading masters to dreadlords means fewer warlocks. Warriors won't have room for all those chimeras and skullcrushers. And I'll have you know that skullcrushers scare me a whole heck of a lot more than 'unkillable tzeentch characters," who I kill with skeleton champions and SCR in 2/3rds of my games against them.

This is NOT going to be that big of a deal. All it really does is allow a few armies to bring some interesting new builds (Skaven with a bell and a bunkered greyseer, vampires with a zombie dragon and a master necro or a vampire lord on GASP shadow, Tomb Kings with a Khalida and a light council, etc.).

And if you can't handle the filth, then get your group to introduce some comp. Tough to bring any of those options in Swedish 10+ anyways.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 ansacs wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
A) Dark Elf power lists feature multiple combat characters 50% of the time. Fast Cav 1+ armour, or flying 1+ armour characters are good.

A unit of 21-30 white lions with BotWD is standard in competitive HE lists. If you allowed me to take 75% of my points in special it wouldn't increase the number of white lions I take. At a certain point you just get diminishing returns. I would not sacrifice warlock units in a DE list to take more peg heroes for example.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
B) This isn't rebooting fantasy. This is driving sales. People buy the end times stuff for the models. Making the 50% character thing is just going to split the community.

Exactly it is getting fantasy models to leave shelves where they have been stuck for years now. This 50% thing is going to make a bunch of nerdrage happen on the net and then nobody will even care anymore when the next edition comes out with the same thing.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
C) I played during that edition. And I do not want to see any shadow of that edition return. 8th is still the best edition we've had. With balanced rules and books. Changing that is just going to make it worse.

If you want a shadow of that edition it was most of 8ed when there were still army lists that could generate more power dice and you have these crazy save or die spells. 8ed has almost killed fantasy. Moving 1-2 large infantry blocks forward, 6 dicing your big 6th spell, and killing any monster with a single cannon shot every single game with no variation whatsoever is not a fun or balanced game. 8ed is repetitive and boring and it appears the sales figures back that up. The only interesting part of the entire game anymore is the chaff battle, once that gets decided (usually turn 2) the game is a routine script with luck determining the final outcome.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
D) I have 25 Dark Riders and 10 Warlocks. And 4 bolt throwers. And double Peg Dreadlord. And double Peg Master. And a peg level 4.

So how does this change anything? You still cannot take anymore bolt throwers or warlocks so the most ridiculous parts of your list are not going anywhere.

Just because YOUR region is dead does not mean that ALL regions are dead. WHFB has a thriving tournament scene, which is getting bigger ever year. There are twice as many GTs in my areas as there were last year. The US Masters is helping that out even more. There are dozens of vibrant WHFB podcasts, and every army has a vibrant and active army-specific forum. Even the Tomb Kings and Beastmen! I really don't get where this "WHFB is dying" nonsense keeps coming from. If any game is dying it's 40K, with two back-to-back dogshit editions of the core rules.


This change is going to affect 50% of the builds of 20% of the armies. Armies that spammed combat heroes (warriors, dark elves, lizardmen) will spam combat lords instead...at the cost of other units. Seriously...upgrading scar vets to old bloods means fewer stegs and rippers. Upgrading masters to dreadlords means fewer warlocks. Warriors won't have room for all those chimeras and skullcrushers. And I'll have you know that skullcrushers scare me a whole heck of a lot more than 'unkillable tzeentch characters," who I kill with skeleton champions and SCR in 2/3rds of my games against them.

This is NOT going to be that big of a deal. All it really does is allow a few armies to bring some interesting new builds (Skaven with a bell and a bunkered greyseer, vampires with a zombie dragon and a master necro or a vampire lord on GASP shadow, Tomb Kings with a Khalida and a light council, etc.).

And if you can't handle the filth, then get your group to introduce some comp. Tough to bring any of those options in Swedish 10+ anyways.

My group currently plays under hard comp like Mohammer.

It's not a big deal? Every demons player I know has bought three bloodthirsters. In addition to the cannons and drones.

As door the fewer warlocks, you cannfit ten in a list with 4 combat peg characters, a mobile death Mage, 25 dark riders, and 4 bolt throwers. In my normal uncomped list with 25% characters, I run 10 warlocks. 25 dark riders, and 4 bolt throwers. Tell me where the concession is?

I never said that Warhammer is dying. I said it will split the community. the 50% thing has already alienated most of my opponents for me.

It does actually make a huge difference. every empire army you'll see will have volkmar, a level 4 light and a lector on an altar with three-four level 1 light mages.

You don't have to worry about people abusing it to the extremes. Just those who abuse it sensibly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well. Also updated my chaos dwarves. I dropped a deathshrieker and the wolf riders and managed to get a second level 4. On death. In addition to a level 4 on hashut.

Most people forget that having boots on the ground (or hooves or whatever) is key to winning
What will 75% characters do against massed ranks of steadfast troops ?
Absolutely nothing

People need to stop saying that the end is nigh (I know it's the End times, but still!), log off those forums and then actually play the game instead of theoryhammering it to death on Internet

every new edition / book / update / FAQ, we hear the same thing. Guess what ? We're still around

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The BRB was updated today, and the 50% lords/heroes is now confirmed as the new norm.
Lore of Undeath likewise has been thrown into the BRB.
Looks like hero-hammer is the the way forward.
Time to dig out the Sword of Anti-heroes.

How will this change your armies?

-Matt

Not at all so far, depends on how the ETC handles the issue and then if we decide to further stick with them or take our own path.

I totes see all Goblin armies switching to Undeath, though.

Without buying any new models.

"What are those?"
"Zombies"
"But they're goblins!"
"So they're goblin zombies!"

 Sigvatr wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The BRB was updated today, and the 50% lords/heroes is now confirmed as the new norm.
Lore of Undeath likewise has been thrown into the BRB.
Looks like hero-hammer is the the way forward.
Time to dig out the Sword of Anti-heroes.

How will this change your armies?

-Matt

Not at all so far, depends on how the ETC handles the issue and then if we decide to further stick with them or take our own path.

I totes see all Goblin armies switching to Undeath, though.

Depending on how ETC handles it, I may start preferring the pack to normal warhammer packs.