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I was at my FLGS today and obviously the staff there are going to praise the new book due to sales. But there was a Dark Eldar veteran there. His army was wonderful (visually; i know nothing about dark eldar)

Safe to say, when he overheard us talking about the new book and what it was like, the guy got a little miffed. He obviously wasnt happy in the slightest, and the store worker was explaining that all it was, was learning different tactics. The book still has the same concept behind it. Swift, short attacks.

Do you think its because it forces Dark eldar players that perhaps abused a certain mechanic to re buy new models? Is the Army considered a lower TIER now?

Just thoughts is all. Nothing malicious please

My understanding is lots of things were nerfed, a vehicle was nerfed and increased in price and the Archon lost their AP2 weapon.

Its probably because your veteran thinks certain units got the nerfbat and certain crutch units DE players took have now disappeared, which does win votes with the many DE players with an the older codex..

In addition it also may have peeved him/her off as they may have created a certain conversion for said units and now they don't exist it may seem in their mind that the time they put in converting and paint up said models seems a but moot in their eyes which further loses brownie points for GW in their eyes..

Not that I blame them, I would be miffed if that happened to my CSM (happened with my Orks but I never had converted any of the old SC, so I would not feel as much bitterness as those who have done so)..

But surely if you love the idea of the game, you tend to buy armies because you love their lore...you love their look. It wouldnt bother me immensely..if they changed it too much.

I'm starting my orks up on wednesday. I dont like Ghazgulls rules but im using him as my mega armoured warboss If you're proud of your conversion, surely you'd use them as your archon or whatever?

The book itself isnt that bad is it :/ even with all the nerfs

From what I've read, it is because the majority of the previous DE meta was negated. Wyches, ravagers, beastpacks, and wracks all got respectively worse. Special characters were removed. It will force a lot of players to buy new units to become competitive again.

So is the book unplayable now :/ it seems that way hearing the way people go off about them haah

What about the non wych, ravager etc. things? Like Incubii and Kabalites. How are they?

I cant imagine ravagers being bad. Just not spammable. Saying that i dont know Dark Eldar. I dont like thinking armies are unplayable. Same with tyranids. Would be a shame

I think we're just having a doom and gloom period before people establish whats good again.

Ive watched alot of battle reports by the guy called 'Skarred cast' on youtube. he seems to kick ass with his DE. In fact most of the battle reports ive watched they seem to win. even against the likes of TAU and Eldar, who are deemed OP top tier armies~?

Generally the I think the codex is a bit better overall. There is certainly better internal balance as before there were some stupidly overcosted units making them unviable. Now Scourges, Reavers and even Mandrakes have a place. People are annoyed (and maybe rightly so) that GW went through a phase of releasing powerful codexes (Eldar, Space Marines, Tau) and for whatever reason they changed direction (probably for the better) and now release more balanced codexes. Trouble is those older powerful codexes still exist and people feel they should be on par in some way. I do have a few gripes of my own which I feel were missed opportunities.

1) It doesn't feel completely like a 7th ed codex. Many of the rules which are prevalent throughout the game (e.g. Ignores Cover, Skyfire) are absent from the codex. I groan on the inside when I come up against a Heldrake, not because I dislike Heldrakes per se but because it can wreck my army and I'm not given any tools to deal with it. I'm not saying every army should be able to deal with everything (even if some can), or that a dedicated skyfire unit fits DE fluff, but a technologically advanced race should probably have a good way of knocking planes out of the sky. Our own flyers are both suited to taking out ground targets.
2) Extremely lacklustre HQ choices. Urien is okish, the rest are bad. I knew it wouldn't happen but if they had only made an Archon on a jetbike model and put that option in the codex, it would have outsold the new archon/succubus/haemonculus models combined.
3) Combat drugs number 3 (+1 initiative), which lazy feth wrote that? Great now I can strike first against those other wyches nobody will run any more.
4) The +1WS warlord trait, which lazy feth wrote THAT and gave it to Lelith? Now I can hit a Keeper of Secrets on a 3, hurray.

pm713 wrote:
What about the non wych, ravager etc. things? Like Incubii and Kabalites. How are they?

Kabalites are basically the same but a point cheaper. Trueborn are also the same, but min squad size is five so you can't ride around with an Archon in a Venom with Blasters. Incubi are cheaper but don't have access to assault grenades. As before (and as with other assault units which can only move 6") they will wreck face if they get in, but will struggle to get in.

They may be rigged BRs, or he might have just got a handle on the new book quickly.

Reasons to dislike the new dex?

1. Special Characters. The two most popular characters were removed entirely. We are the only army, to my knowledge, that can't field their own supreme commander. My entire army was based, not just in play style, but in theme and design around one of those characters, neither of which have a generic analog. For people who spent days, weeks, or months collecting the parts and spending the time to custom build the old characters, it can feel very frustrating to find out they are now essentially worthless.

2. With the exception of one, none of the problem units, the ones that DE players felt couldn't be used effectively or had major problems, received fixes. (Mandrakes are the exception.) Many good units were made worse, even when these units weren't considered OP.

3. Many units and mechanics changed the way they function in ways that aren't better or worse. What this does mean is that the army needs to be played differently now. For those who spent several years learning the way the old book worked, it's an understandable frustration to be essentially starting over. Re-learning an army can be harder than learning it in the first place, because you have old tactics and ideas you need to 'un-learn.'

4. No psychic defense. In an edition where psykers are extremely powerful, this becomes a massive Achilles' heel for the army, which already has several to begin with. We had hoped that when psychic powers got so much more ripped, we would get some degree of protection, even if we didn't get them ourselves. Being left out in the cold, unprotected, is disappointing.

5. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Part of the draw of a new Codex is the shiny new things. New characters, new units, and new mechanics. It's a big part of what justifies the huge price tag, at least to my mind. With no new characters, no new units, and a paltry scattering of new equipment, it feels less like we're getting something for our money, and more like we're just being asked to pay sixty bucks to keep playing, like we're renewing a subscription or something.

Hopefully that sheds some lit on the situation. I'm not disappointed enough to quit the army, but I definitely wish they'd just skipped us for another couple of years.

Yeah i did think they may have fixed the reports as you never saw them rolling dice... Its just such a shame!

And i couldnt agree with you more on the fact that most other armies got alot more TLC in regards to new big shiny models!!!

The reason i was going slightly in depth with them is that they were my last army before i quite 40k a few years ago. And i was hoping they were still the same spear heading, tabling by turn 3 army they once were. But obviously not :/

I was trying to choose my army that i'll be re entering 40k with. 99% on orks with a hint towards dark eldar. the 1% being that fast hitting R""e train they used to be. but if they've changed so much i'll stick with orks i think

If you want a "fast hitting rape train," DE may still be they way to go. Salamanders or Space Wolves via Drop Pod also fulfill that role, in spades. If you've never played them before, I think you'll find the new codex no more difficult to master than the old one would have been. I think the frustration is mostly confined to players of the old codex.

this coming wednesday im investing some serious cash into an army. I have to make sure its the right one i need :/ i Have no idea about the new 7th ed rulebook nor the new Dark eldar book. So im just a little sceptical. I think orks may still be the better option

I am also a ''Veteran'' Dark Eldar player, and i'll say that the New Codex is a step in the right direction, but a step away from what we used to have. Units come and go in the competitive scene, that's a fact, but Dark Eldar have been around a long time and everyone and their mother owned a Ravager or 3. Now they are ineffective, people complain, until they now notice their Scourges, Reavers and Pain Engines that have been sitting patiently on the shelf are now the new hotness.

Things are different, Dark Eldar used to be a great Alpha Strike army, but couldn't take a hit. Dark Eldar are NOW, unquestionably, the best Beta Strike army in the game. It is possible to not have a single model on the table turn 1 as long as you go second (Formation allows for Deepstrike turn 1, rest comes in turn 2), and while they still can't take a hit, army wide FNP is a great boon. Not to mention 3+ Jink saves are just obnoxious on 70pt Transports.

So, chances are your ''Vet'' will either hang up his spandex because he doesn't want to adapt to the new playstyle (or doesn't like the new competitive unit models) or will pull up his trousers and take a look at his new codex, and pick out the gems.

As for if you are looking for a fast assault army, Dark Eldar are your best choice. Specifically the new Coven Supplement, units of 2 Incubi + Klaivex and the Court of the Archon. The amount of assault you can have in their faces turn 2, all rocking 3+ jink saves, it fun to watch armies try to shoot down...

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I am also a ''Veteran'' Dark Eldar player, and i'll say that the New Codex is a step in the right direction, but a step away from what we used to have. Units come and go in the competitive scene, that's a fact, but Dark Eldar have been around a long time and everyone and their mother owned a Ravager or 3. Now they are ineffective, people complain, until they now notice their Scourges, Reavers and Pain Engines that have been sitting patiently on the shelf are now the new hotness.

Things are different, Dark Eldar used to be a great Alpha Strike army, but couldn't take a hit. Dark Eldar are NOW, unquestionably, the best Beta Strike army in the game. It is possible to not have a single model on the table turn 1 as long as you go second (Formation allows for Deepstrike turn 1, rest comes in turn 2), and while they still can't take a hit, army wide FNP is a great boon. Not to mention 3+ Jink saves are just obnoxious on 70pt Transports.

So, chances are your ''Vet'' will either hang up his spandex because he doesn't want to adapt to the new playstyle (or doesn't like the new competitive unit models) or will pull up his trousers and take a look at his new codex, and pick out the gems.

As for if you are looking for a fast assault army, Dark Eldar are your best choice. Specifically the new Coven Supplement, units of 2 Incubi + Klaivex and the Court of the Archon. The amount of assault you can have in their faces turn 2, all rocking 3+ jink saves, it fun to watch armies try to shoot down...

Dude that sounds frickken awesome. With me being new... Can you just explain to me how a Beta strike works? Like an example from your own hands? Obviously i know its a second turn offence... but how would it work? I love the idea of a glass cannon, but can i do well with them? with me being new??? Especially with me being out of the game for so long, i wouldnt have to worry about learning previously bad habits?

If i were to play a 1500 point game. what Would a beta strike army look like??

Being able to use Scourges without having them shot to pieces is excellent.

Making webway portal easier to understand and utilize is also quite nice.

Wyches sucking (more) doesn't bother me.

The important placed on Wracks/Haemonculi is boring and feels like a sales tactic.

I don't play DE anymore, but I ALWAYS went 2nd if I could. Everyone expects the Alpha Strike. Also, DE were the first 40k army I looked into, and I am NOT a glass cannon type of player. They were a lot of fun, and taught me the value of allowing my opponent enough room to make a mistake.

The new dex is causing me to question switching to them from my marines. I love it and the supplement. I want to build the carnival of pain. It only uses my absolute favorite units.

I love the idea of massed shooting crippling the enemy. Like removing a vital piece in a jenga tower and watching the whole thing collapse. I just don't think I'd have the tactical prowess to pull of such an army. But is it something you can work on?? The models are just gorgeous too. The new dex is having so much flakk thrown at it too, it's quite confusing.

luckily most of the models that are being shelved don't bother me. The Wych cult to me.. has been the worst part of the army. I've always preferred kabalites, reavers, hellions, and the idea I can fart out so many dice my opening will just leave him reeling.

How is your Meta with Supplements/Formations? Because i love the new Coven one, it adds lots of fun combat elements you can play and an odd bit of toughness to your army. But my 1500pt Beta Strike list is...

HQ: Succubus w/ Archite Glaive & Webway Portal and Haywire Grenades. 135pts.

Elites: 5 Mandrakes. 70pts
5 Mandrakes. 70pts
5 Incubi with Klaivex. 130pts.
DT: Raider w/ Nightshields. 70pts

Troops: 5 Warriors. 40pts
5 Warriors. 40pts.
DT: Venom w/ Duel Cannons 65pts
DT: Venom w/ Duel Cannons 65pts

Fast Attack: 6 Reavers w/ 2 Caltrops. 126pts
6 Reavers w/ 2 Caltrops. 126pts

Fortifications: Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Relay. 70pts

Coven Supplement Formation: Grotesquerie

Haemonculus w/ Scissorhands & Webway Portal and Parasites Kiss.. 120pts.

4 Grotesques + Abberation 185pts

4 Grotesques + Abberation 185pts.

Total 1497pts.

Turn 1, nothing on board save for Mandrakes if you wish. Mandrakes will be rocking 2+ cover save from the defense line, Stealth and Shrouded. Their entire job is to stay alive.

Turn 2. Every thing comes on a 2+. Haemunculi joins one Grot unit, Succubus the other. Proceed to deepstrike 30 T5/6 FNP wounds into your opponents back line. Reavers come from reserves, then Turbo Boost into a position to charge next turn, they will be rocking a 3+ Jink save. Incubi deepstrike in Raider to a similar position, also rocking 3+ Jink Save. Warriors Deepstrike somewhere to give long range splinter fire support.

Turn 3. Charge. With Everything. Every unit is deadly. Those Incubi put out 23 Ws 5 Str 4 AP 2 attacks on the charge. The Grotesques do 29 Str 5 poisoned 4+ (insta-kill on 6's), not including HQ's or buffs from Formation (roll at start of game, get either Rage, Shred, 4+ FNP, Fleet, +1str or +1 T). Reavers throw out 2d6 Str 6 Rending HOW before they even strike!

I play this list, and by god it's miles more fun then the 'old' Dark Eldar. Screw Venom/Ravager spam, give me Space Elf Hulks on Drugs anytime!

Alex

.

The internal balance is still poor. Mandrakes and Incubii are unusable in a competitive setting. The flyers are average but dont shine. Ravagers got worse. Wyches are still incredibly flimsy. Wracks got worse. Baron disappeared. No more high init AP2 in CC.

They lost their obvious big crutch Beastpack and Baron, but the rest of the book hasnt really been lifted up to compensate. Its not an unusable book, but it is very much along the lines of the Grey Knights and Ork books wherein a lot of the unit choices are really sub-optimal when compared to others in the slots. Which is poor design. All units should be roughly equally viable.

On the plus side Scourges, Webway Portals and big units of Warriors improved.

Dark Eldar look more and more fun to play every day. One question though...

What is your defense against an alpha strike list? Something along the lines of GK dropping in and a dread knight dumping a heavy incinerator on your mandrakes? Just curious is all, DE have my eye right now...And I don't have a non-imperial army to play around with.

Dark Eldar are ridiculously now with 5+ FNP army wide. 3+ Jink Save. If not for my Dreadknight and Wave Serpent, I don't know what I will do against them.

bibotot wrote:
Dark Eldar are ridiculously now with 5+ FNP army wide. 3+ Jink Save. If not for my Dreadknight and Wave Serpent, I don't know what I will do against them.

Well, to be fair, Wave Serpents are pretty much good against most things.

My understanding is DE are now a great ally for CWE! I'm not sure that'd what DE players necessarily wanted though...having to purchase a second $50 book to make your army effective doesn't make for the best book.

I do think the new DE book is good, but there are some things that make it a little annoying if you are an existing DE player. Just takes some readjusting and it can sting a bit when some of your models can't be used anymore. Most complaints (and the things that annoy me) are based around Wyches, HQs, and a couple other random things.

Troops for DE have had uses other than just scoring for a long time (5th ed and prior). Wyches recently were good for jumping around sticking Haywires on vehicles or tying up expensive enemy units in combat. Losing haywires and Shardnets essentially neutralized those roles, at least for me. The hit to Wyches also kinda hurts Venom spam, at least the way I ran it, gotta divert points away from Venoms and troops in order to bring alternate anti-tank options. Wracks are out as troops too. So from my point of view that just leaves Warriors, which I can either take cheap just to get another Venom or two, or a bigger unit in a Raider with splinter racks. I often would take a unit of warriors in a Raider in the past codex, but that was also when I was taking the Duke. So at this point my troops will likely be min troops (warriors) in Venoms, leave them in reserves as long as possible to try to score late.

The HQ changes are a bit frustrating, my converted/alternate Baron, Duke, and Lady Malys can't be used. Those were the only HQs I used to use and they had units that ran with them. Hellions with the Baron, without the Baron they lose a ton of survivability, aren't troops, and don't really have a role. Warriors with Duke for better poison, losing duke hurts all the arena troops too (Wyches, Reavers, Hellions). I also ran Bloodbrides with Lady Malys, but that was more of a fluff thing. I don't really have a use for any of the current HQ choices other than as a portal caddy and to fill the required HQ slot.

Other choices are just kinda bleh, I wish the fliers were better or cheaper to justify the awesome models. Mandrakes are better, but not enough to make me want to take them. Incubi are 'better' just because there aren't many other ways to get AP2 in CC in the codex. I'm not sure why I would ever take Wracks, I like Grotesques much better. Ravagers got kinda borderline by losing the ability to move fullspeed and fire everything.


All that said, I do love things about the codex. I'm so happy Scourges are good, those models are amazing and deserve to be used. Reavers lost some utility, but hit a lot harder in CC and are a lot cheaper, I like them better now. Again, awesome models too. Couple that with the Real Space Raiders detachment and I'm happy with my lists just being 6 fast attacks slots worth of Scourges/Reavers, a Haemonculus Portaling in with a big unit of Grotesques, and some troops (doesn't really matter what). I just like Scourges and Reavers. I wish Hellions could join the party but they're benchwarmers for now. Lots of people like the Court of the Archon too, not sold on it yet though.

 EmperorsChampion wrote:
Dark Eldar look more and more fun to play every day. One question though...

What is your defense against an alpha strike list? Something along the lines of GK dropping in and a dread knight dumping a heavy incinerator on your mandrakes? Just curious is all, DE have my eye right now...And I don't have a non-imperial army to play around with.

Hide some units out of LOS with a comms relay, reserve everything else. Thats about it... outside of allies.

I'm not a huge fan of the book. The only benefit for me though Is that I played a heamonuli cult style army anyway and ran 2 talos and a chromos - now I can field them in squadrens and still take a ravage and/or other heavy options.

I think the book isn't bad, but I feel they ripped the soul out of it and left us with a dry husk of a codex

They neutred much of the faction's falvor by removing IC's for no reason other than greed and vindictiveness. They also removed many fluffy rules and interesting FoC-chart manipulations to coerce you into playing Unbound, and bumped certain characters into the LoW slot for no reason other than to force you to start using Unbound in your games. Again, for the sake of greed.

So basically, people dislike it for the same reason they've disliked every codex since Tyranids.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
They neutred much of the faction's falvor by removing IC's for no reason other than greed and vindictiveness. They also removed many fluffy rules and interesting FoC-chart manipulations to coerce you into playing Unbound, and bumped certain characters into the LoW slot for no reason other than to force you to start using Unbound in your games. Again, for the sake of greed.

So basically, people dislike it for the same reason they've disliked every codex since Tyranids.

Not one character in this codex was made into a Lord of war..

Nope, nor in Tyranids or Imperial Guard. But it did happen in Space Wolves and Orks.