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RecentIyl I see the trend of messages about people bashing against GW about a lot of things. The practices of GW really got a lot of people to question thei hobby choices. Some left GW, selling their collections. Others keep their collections waiting to someday made use of them again.

The funny thing is that GW remains silent trough it all. I heard Jake Thornton from Mantic talk about his company, saw the Corvus Belli Carlos and others talk about their game and their practices. Saw some people from MERCS miniatures on kickstarter...But never saw anyone from GW anywhere on the web, on forums, or interviews.

I'm not a child raised in tabletop gaming. I collected boardgames for the last 10 years. Been collecting all kind of games for at least 15 years: Magic, Dreamblade, Heroclix, FFG games...You name it. I always been a sucker for miniatures, and started trying to enter this world for sometime now. Of course GW site was place of awe by their models and fluff.

But then, maybe GW can't do anything to remain in the market? Maybe the behemoth needs this business model to survive this era of less players. Old players cling to the investment they made on huge armies from GW. New players are growing in a world that have multiple videogames, social networks and many activities that compete for the attention and funds of them. As many of we oldies played with army men, the new kids don't seem to have the patience for the long term commitment for building, painting and reading lots and lots of rules to game. Besides, the rising costs seem to getting people away from big army games: Those that already have them, continue to carry the flame. But those starting, like myself, find an impossible to climb mountain.

How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going? How long for them to have to resort to the GW way to keep some profit? I would like to know if other game giants have fallen, and how they fell.

I don't know how the tournaments and events go around the world. Wandering the web I find many ressorting to 15mm wargaming and skirmish games.Can those companies remain profitable when the thinking is to buy some models and that's it?

Keraun0s wrote:
Can those companies remain profitable when the thinking is to buy some models and that's it?

I'm no longer interested in the larger picture of "GW vs gaming" or however it gets framed these days, but I wanted to just pick up on this last point, as it does sometimes come across as a mystery to people only involved in the larger GW games. It's true that for a lot of skirmish games, you only need to buy a handful of figures to get hold of a legal, decent force (My Confrontation Wolfen never number above 7 or 8, Infinity usually uses 10 etc). However, the two things that work in a skirmish game's favour here are:

a) You can keep adding single models to a force, for a small cost each time. Due to the nature of the games, these small additions can actually have a major impact on how the rest of the army operates, so you can often refresh your collection for less than £10 a time.

b) Due to the low cost of getting hold of a functional force for a faction, you can easily branch out into other factions with completely different play styles. There isn't the same necessary startup cost of going to a GW store and dropping £hundreds on your new codex plus however many boxes of basic guys you need, before even getting to the cool stuff.

Keraun0s wrote:
RecentIyl I see the trend of messages about people bashing against GW about a lot of things. The practices of GW really got a lot of people to question thei hobby choices. Some left GW, selling their collections. Others keep their collections waiting to someday made use of them again.

The funny thing is that GW remains silent trough it all. I heard Jake Thornton from Mantic talk about his company, saw the Corvus Belli Carlos and others talk about their game and their practices. Saw some people from MERCS miniatures on kickstarter...But never saw anyone from GW anywhere on the web, on forums, or interviews.

The difference between GW and the other companies you mentioned, Mantic PP etc, is that GW is a coloration that is on the stock market. I don't think the other companies are corporations or on the stock market either (please correct me if I am wrong). The way I see it, you don't see corporations or companies on the stock market "talking" to their companies. Coca Cola, Apple (the way GW seems to be taking their points from) are not open as PP and Mantic and the smaller companies are.

That is one of the reasons why GW remains silent. They don't have to be, but that is the way it seems corporations on the stock market seem to act.

It is a fiction to think that other companies are doing things the 'GW way'.

Mantic Games, for example, has a business model based on responding to holes in the market created by what GW has stopped doing. That Mantic Games can even have this business model is indicative of the fact that these market niches remain active, even if GW has abandoned them.

Mantic's slogan is "Building big armies," and the company initially built itself on providing relatively inexpensive models with which to play large model count games at a comparatively reasonable cost.

Plenty of table top wargamers play large model count armies, especially when it comes to historicals.

Also, as Riquende suggests, I suspect that plenty of people who play skirmish games have sizable collections, even if they only put 6-10 models on the table at one time.

How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going

Like any other business?

I'm confused? Does being in a niche preclude normal business practice?

As long as these companies understand their market they will continue and no doubt thrive as a result.

Maybe the behemoth needs this business model to survive this era of less players.

Citation please? Where have these players gone? Maybe they have gone to the other companies you name and their products?

 Mr. Burning wrote:

How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going

Maybe the behemoth needs this business model to survive this era of less players.

Citation please? Where have these players gone? Maybe they have gone to the other companies you name and their products?

I was under the impression that what the OP meant was 'in this era of less GW players.' At least that's how I took it, because the TTG market is so obviously growing while GW's player base is so obviously shrinking. It isn't merely a loss of market share owing to market expansion.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going

Maybe the behemoth needs this business model to survive this era of less players.

Citation please? Where have these players gone? Maybe they have gone to the other companies you name and their products?

I was under the impression that what the OP meant was 'in this era of less GW players.' At least that's how I took it, because the TTG market is so obviously growing while GW's player base is so obviously shrinking. It isn't merely a loss of market share owing to market expansion.

Ah. I see that now.

If I read the flag right KeraunOs is from Brazil so English probably is not his first language so he deserves credit for asking a complex question.

(My Portuguese knowledge begins and ends at vinho verde and vinho tinto.)

To address the 15mm portion of the query, it has been a popular scale for 30+ years for Ancients and Napoleonic. I don't think it represents a retreat from GW so much as greater awareness among modern internet based wargamers of the historical alternatives to GW.

Various comments from GW stand out, the attitude that their customers 'buy what we sell', and the testimony of Merritt where he describes their customers favourite activity being 'buying GW'. This is the rot of GW, the hubris and taking their customer base for granted. But with the prices the way they are, obvious attempts to gouge by pushing ever bigger armies along with a rash of supplements on top of each codex that rightfully should be in a single book, and piss poor product like Finecast, it all adds up to people shopping elsewhere.

The OP forgets that unlike Warmachine and others like them, don't own/rent bricks and mortar stores to sell their products, that's a huge impost on overall revenue.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
The OP forgets that unlike Warmachine and others like them, don't own/rent bricks and mortar stores to sell their products, that's a huge impost on overall revenue.

It's also an idea that stopped being good in the early 90s, but GW is stuck in that area. A lot of their overall issues could be solved by getting rid of the stores (at least outside the UK, and maybe inside as well), but they still have this idea that the GW store is the center of the "hobby" and it forces a lot of their stupid decisions like screwing with independent retailers because technically independent retailers are their competition.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
The OP forgets that unlike Warmachine and others like them, don't own/rent bricks and mortar stores to sell their products, that's a huge impost on overall revenue.

It's also an idea that stopped being good in the early 90s, but GW is stuck in that area. A lot of their overall issues could be solved by getting rid of the stores (at least outside the UK, and maybe inside as well), but they still have this idea that the GW store is the center of the "hobby" and it forces a lot of their stupid decisions like screwing with independent retailers because technically independent retailers are their competition.

Which is compounded by the fact that the GW stores really aren't the places to get games in. One or two tables that *may* be open, cramped environment...it really doesn't make any sense.

 Accolade wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
The OP forgets that unlike Warmachine and others like them, don't own/rent bricks and mortar stores to sell their products, that's a huge impost on overall revenue.

It's also an idea that stopped being good in the early 90s, but GW is stuck in that area. A lot of their overall issues could be solved by getting rid of the stores (at least outside the UK, and maybe inside as well), but they still have this idea that the GW store is the center of the "hobby" and it forces a lot of their stupid decisions like screwing with independent retailers because technically independent retailers are their competition.

Which is compounded by the fact that the GW stores really aren't the places to get games in. One or two tables that *may* be open, cramped environment...it really doesn't make any sense.

Ironically, they are getting rid of the brick and mortar stores. There is no longer a GW-run store within an hour's drive of my house. (There used to be two).

That's not too surprising. The B&M are literally tanking GW. And for good reason! There is absolutely no strong reason to go to their store (other than the manager's a pal of yours).

Their selection isn't necessarily much better than a FLGS, so you end up ordering online to have it delivered to their store...rather than just to your house. There is barely any gaming space, plus the only two games you can play in the store are 40k and WHFB (if I'm clear on it, you're not even supposed to play specialists games there since they aren't in production anymore). Plus you have the threat of dealing with a pushy store manager (who I can't blame for being pushy, his or her job is on the line constantly from creeping upper management).

The whole experience just comes off very antagonistic, and in the most positive frame it's something like a cult of personality.

GW sinks a huge amount of their money into these unfunded, understaffed stores with some hair-brained idea that they'll out-compete a normal FLGS for what, the "privilege" of playing in an actual GW store??

I say all this because I remember the old-fashioned store. 4-5 tables, demo games as well. Specialists games were sold and the store had a normal staff of 3-5 people who built terrain, ran campaigns, and generally supported a welcoming atmosphere (to a noticeable degree more-so than the current model). What we have now screams of the "you buy what we make/offer" thing, and *shocker* it's not working.

As to the silence of GW, it's been that way for a long time. Not to say it is entirely deaf and dumb, but GW has never fostered the kind of openness or dialogue with it's fans that some other games companies have. The relationship between GW and it's customers has tended to be very one way. A sort of We'll provide you with amazing models and you will buy them"

 Kilkrazy wrote:
If I read the flag right KeraunOs is from Brazil so English probably is not his first language so he deserves credit for asking a complex question.

(My Portuguese knowledge begins and ends at vinho verde and vinho tinto.)

To address the 15mm portion of the query, it has been a popular scale for 30+ years for Ancients and Napoleonic. I don't think it represents a retreat from GW so much as greater awareness among modern internet based wargamers of the historical alternatives to GW.

Just to piggyback, you don't see it much here, but Sci-fi 15mm has really exploded on the indie gaming scene. In the past 5-10 years there have been a multitude of small companies starting up producing 15mm figures and vehicles. 15mm sci-fi still hasn't had it's "major label" debut, but Tomorrows War was deliberately 15mm compatible and was very successful, and it's not alone. Consider the Sci-fi rulest Gruntz 15mm which is THE bestselling product on Wargames Vault and proving very popular with fans of this scale.

15mm fantasy is also growing, though not quite at the same rate as SF.

Shops make sense in various ways for GW but not the way they actually use them now.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Shops make sense in various ways for GW but not the way they actually use them now.

I read a report (don't know how scientific it was) after the 2008 crash that retail stores that reduced their manpower (to save money) did overall worse than the ones who stayed with the same number and that stores that added people tend to do even better (better service -> people were willing to spend more money, or something like that was speculated). I think it was generally retail related (no specific industry) so who knows how it would affect GW but it think some time after that they started with the one man stores. Although I think their sales/revenue/profit was already stagnating (or at least not performing convincingly) at that point.

weeble1000 wrote:


Mantic's slogan is "Building big armies," and the company initially built itself on providing relatively inexpensive models with which to play large model count games at a comparatively reasonable cost.

Quantity over quality!

The GW store in Cincinnati seems to be quite busy quite often. I don't ever go, but I do follow their FB feed, and it looks like they have multiple games every weekend and two or three days during the week where people are playing.

So, you know, anecdotal evidence is pretty worthless in this instance, as the anecdotes vary wildly.

If you are in an area with a great manager at your local GW, there will be lots of stuff going on there. If all the manager does is try to hard sell everyone with a pulse that walks through the door and doesn't really ever do events or even actively disuades people from playing or painting there, you'll have a crappy GW location.

GW just hired someone to go to all the stores and see what the successful ones are doing differently and if GW is lucky, they'll actually identify and encourage the path that works best by making it company wide policy for their retail locations.

That said-- it's entirely possible that the hard seller guys will out perform the community builders and company wide policy will become the shutting down of all non-sales activity.

To answer one of the OP's questions, look at TSR and how they fell. They were freaking D&D, yet they fell and fell hard. It's an interesting bit of history with a lot of lessons to be learned.

Keraun0s wrote:
How long can Mantic, Wyrd, Corvus Belli, Warlord Games and many other smaller companies keep their lines going? How long for them to have to resort to the GW way to keep some profit?

For as long as they keep churning out games/mini's and customers keep snapping them up. Warlord Games is bringing out dozens of new lines a month (in twice-weekly emailed), new army books an expansions; they've currently got 3.5 games systems on the go (Hail Caesar, Black Powder, Bolt Action, Bolt Action: Tank Wars) with supplements, and a 4th main line coming (Beyond The Gates Of Antares). Same for Mantic; the dreadball and deadzone games are doing great. Infinity and Malifaux are booming.

I don't think any of these companies will need to the current GW way to remain profitable, since 2 of that list are run by people from the days when GW was growing.

The only company that seems to be struggling in this market is GW; because pretty much everyone that made GW great is now working against them (Priestly, Stallard, Sawyer, Renton, McVey, Cavatore, Perry's).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mario wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Shops make sense in various ways for GW but not the way they actually use them now.

I read a report (don't know how scientific it was) after the 2008 crash that retail stores that reduced their manpower (to save money) did overall worse than the ones who stayed with the same number and that stores that added people tend to do even better (better service -> people were willing to spend more money, or something like that was speculated). I think it was generally retail related (no specific industry) so who knows how it would affect GW but it think some time after that they started with the one man stores. Although I think their sales/revenue/profit was already stagnating (or at least not performing convincingly) at that point.

The 1-man store model is crippling them, whilst generating terrible customer service. They no longer have staff for things like Games Days, the opening hours are less predictable as they close due to holidays/illness/bathroom breaks, they don't have time to supervise gaming AND attend to customers, or keep on top of anything.
They make perfect sense in the short term though, and that seems to be where GW is focused - trying to make the next report look so bad and hopefully things will magically improve for the next one. It's guaranteed disaster in the long run but they're too desperate to do anything about it.

When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

And before I'm shot down, I play Dreadball, Deadzone and have backed the Mantic Dungeoncrawler. I just can see the standard isn't there.

As for the 'single man stores are failing' and the 'the stores are pointless' arguements, I would bet that the demographic they are going for (the younger audience, who are dragging mum and dad in) it's pretty good. And they are more new-friendly than most FLGS, which cater for the more established fan.

When the GW stores stop bringing in new players, I'll be the first to say it's time for a rethink. You can point out a drop in profits, but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

I still think they're just biding their time before they drop the new Mordheim.

The 'why don't GW release Mordheim/Necromunda/Bloodbowl/WHQ' thing is a funny one, but it's actually pretty obvious right now.

It wouldn't be hugely cost effective to diversify into an area that's already crowded. They have two products that are leaders in their field (large scale futuristic and large scale fantasy) and until that comes under threat why take a risk?

Would all the WarmaHordes/Malifaux players come back if Mordheim dropped? I play both because Mordheim went, but those two are too established now to claw me back. If Mordheim came back, would new players get into it? Probably, but straight away, when you get a taste for a skirmish game, you have these other systems there with an established power-base, so theres little point in GW taking a risk for a fairly low reward.

Replace the above with Necromunda/Deadzone and Warpath etc, Dreadball/Bloodbowl.

Like I said, when a company can sell me 40 goblins with the same CONSISTANT quality, for cheaper than GW, and back that up with better quality lords and heros that GW, I'm in.

Same with 40K. Give me a choice of 4-5 box sets of troops please Mantic, at the same level of detail, poseability and conversion potential as a Space Marine line. I'll snap them up and so will a shed load of others.

So you're saying GW should just stick to two games and never try anything else because someone else is doing it?

I mean, its even funnier that those games only exist because GW withdrew them in the first place.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

And before I'm shot down, I play Dreadball, Deadzone and have backed the Mantic Dungeoncrawler. I just can see the standard isn't there.

As for the 'single man stores are failing' and the 'the stores are pointless' arguements, I would bet that the demographic they are going for (the younger audience, who are dragging mum and dad in) it's pretty good. And they are more new-friendly than most FLGS, which cater for the more established fan.

When the GW stores stop bringing in new players, I'll be the first to say it's time for a rethink. You can point out a drop in profits, but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

I'd say that Infinity's minis are far and away a higher quality than GW's.
I'd also say that PP's metals are on par, but sadly, not their plastic, yet. They are getting better though.
Malifaux's plastics are almost exceptional. Give them a try.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

These are the experts that don't do research and are responsible for a company in serious decline? It's unwise to assume that just because someone is getting paid to make decisions, that they actually know what they are doing. Especially when all of the evidence points the other way. What's their long term game plan? Wait for the internet to die off and their competition to just go away like Pokemon* did?

*Pokemon X&Y (released 1 year ago - October 2013) sold 12.3 million copies. Even at £10/copy ($15), that exceeds GW's total revenue, when it's probably 3 times that. And that's ignoring the merch and card games.

Herzlos wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

These are the experts that don't do research and are responsible for a company in serious decline? It's unwise to assume that just because someone is getting paid to make decisions, that they actually know what they are doing. Especially when all of the evidence points the other way. What's their long term game plan? Wait for the internet to die off and their competition to just go away like Pokemon* did?

*Pokemon X&Y (released 1 year ago - October 2013) sold 12.3 million copies. Even at £10/copy ($15), that exceeds GW's total revenue, when it's probably 3 times that. And that's ignoring the merch and card games.

And the internet's still around. Weird, I know.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When the GW stores stop bringing in new players, I'll be the first to say it's time for a rethink. You can point out a drop in profits, but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

Yet a lot of experts have said that GW is declining...

The Division Of Joy wrote:
When other companies (apart from Wyrd) start producing decent quality miniatures I'll be tempted to say enough is enough with GW, but the likes of Mantic have a long way to go. Prodos are getting there, but still a way off.

And before I'm shot down, I play Dreadball, Deadzone and have backed the Mantic Dungeoncrawler. I just can see the standard isn't there.

As for the 'single man stores are failing' and the 'the stores are pointless' arguements, I would bet that the demographic they are going for (the younger audience, who are dragging mum and dad in) it's pretty good. And they are more new-friendly than most FLGS, which cater for the more established fan.

When the GW stores stop bringing in new players, I'll be the first to say it's time for a rethink. You can point out a drop in profits, but as much as 'experts' on here can shout, there is some business expertise looking at these things, and they know more about the way to run things than someone that vents on here.

What I highlighted above is the exact reason for the stores. Gw has long said that gamers in their first year participating in the hobby will spend 3x as much as those who are already established, on average. Those annoying 10-12 year olds that come into the store are the ones who keep the doors open. Thats how stores fail is not catering to those customers who bring in mommy and daddy who pull out a credit card and swipe it for $100 a month or those parents who walk into the gw where the christmas gift list is and swipe that card for $1100(yes i have seen that numerous times).

The stores are designed to cater to the brand new player, not experianced gamers.