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Made in gb
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I can't see it. I can't see how this one faction fit the far future. This faction sucks,the Codex, that is. I have seen Grey Knights losing 300 points to mishap including Warlord in turn 1 and still win against them. I don't want to insult anyone playing the AM, and I am myself a huge fan of Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, but this particular faction is so poorly represented on the table top game. I don't think I have ever seen any AM army winning tournaments. Here are the reasons why:
- Worst-looking models ever, apart from those Tempestus and Voystran guys. Cadians look more generic than Space Marines when you consider the popular culture, not just heavy sci-fi, but also stuffs in close future. Even the generic guys in Halo and Gears of Wars look better.
- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.
- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.
- Baneblade is not enough, and now they are putting different guns on the same chassis?
- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model.
- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.
It pains me because I was a fan of the Guards reading novels about them. All the awesomeness, all for NOTHING. I am never going to touch these guys unless they make lasgun S4 AP6 and Guardsmen 7 points per model. Hellgun should be S4 AP4. Remove the Conscripts altogether.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/27 20:53:01


 
   
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WA, USA

So I have to gather that you lost to Orks lately?

Sorry, but Guard are strong in the right hands.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Wow, yeah. Clearly you're not a guard player, or have ever played against a decent one before.

What you're describing are characteristics of the army, not weaknesses.



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Guard are one of the best, most iconic thing about 40k. They represent humanity in a horrible universe that wants to kill them.

And they have lots of tanks.



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Gavin Thorpe




The whole point of the Guard is that they are the underdog, the weak non-modified regular dude in a world of psychotically murderous aliens and insane God-charged supermen. The regular Joe who sees the horrors of the universe, grasps his torch and buckles up that t-shirt, and holds the line.

Somebody needs to carry the worst weapons in the game. You cannot have S4 for everybody because the Bolter is supposed to be a noteworthy weapon for how good it is. Either Guard get the bog standard, mass-produced mediocrity of S3, or Marines are being equipped with bog standard, mass-produced S4. For all the Marine books in the game, Guardsmen are supposed to be what is 'normal' in terms of equipment and power level.

And in terms of points, people seem to be taking far more of those overpriced Guardsmen than the underpriced Orks, especially when you start reading the big games. Their strengths are in mass volume of price-efficient, individually mediocre troops and grinding out in faith that your numbers will outlast theirs because they are bigger.

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The guard gets things done.*

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I kind of agree. The rules are really dumb for Guardsmen. Plus the Plastics for them are so bad.

But I realize this is because most of the rules are kind of bad in GW games.

Conscripts shouldnt exist because conscript doesnt mean what GW seems to think it means. Blobs of men are just stupid to have running around and the army is practically fearless.

Where my opinion differs is that the Guard dont suck, they are really good if used stupidly. But well everything about them in the 40k game is just dumb in my opinion.

Its my favorite faction and the only faction I play. But I hate the fact I play them really. Its more to do with how the rules work though and how the codex is written.
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller






Carlisle, UK

Yeah.. guard are one the higher tier armies right now, and the codex is fairly balanced as well. Yes boltgun individually are better weapons, but then the advantage of a lasguns is you can take 110 guardsmen all firing either 2 or 3 shots for 560pts. If you drown a tactical squad in that much lasfire it won't matter if it's strength 3 ap -, they're gonna fail at least 5 or more armour saves.

Oh and then there's the anti space marine tanks.. of which we can take 12... Yeah your average marine can survive a few las rounds, but we still outclassed you regardless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Applying modern tactics to guard don't work very well all the time, if you want success a lot then you need to treat them like they should be. They are line infantry that need to be supported by armour and heavy artillery. Fire massed volleys of lasguns fire and lob high ex shells into the enemies lines. Sure you'll take losses but you can afford to, cause chances are you'll have around a company of infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/27 21:25:22



2000pts IG. ( based on fallout US Army)

3000pts XIIth Legiones Astartes 8th Assault Company. (Pre heresy)

never in the field of human conflict, has so much been fired at so many, by so few.

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Please leave your message after the tone...
 
   
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Seattle

Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.


There is a reason that the lasgun is called a flashlight.

And, no, a machine-gun is not more effective. A standard machinegun is basically a lasgun.

An Ork Shoota is more akin to a boltgun than it is a lasgun. You're comparing apples to watermelons.

Hellguns have always been superior at armor penetration than a lasgun, but no more effective at then killing the thing inside that armor. That's just an oddity of hellguns. Not sure why.

Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.


Yep. That's how it works.

Those guys that pissed Gaunt off on Aexe Cardinal by stealing the Tanith's medical supplies and punching Ana Curth in the face didn't get an Armor Save either when Gaunt drew his bolt pistol and shot them, two standing there, the other running away. It's what Commissars do. They execute the cowardly.

Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.


Yep. Flak armor is cheap, mass-produced, and doesn't stop much more than the falling rain (which, as it so happens, has the same effectiveness as a lasgun). That's what it's like in the Guard.

Notice how the Tanith mostly fought guys with lasguns and not bolters? There's a reason for that.

No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.


Tanks. Lots and lots of tanks. The IG Infantry is not meant to take down MCs, not without massed heavy weapons, meltabombs, lascannons, or similar weapons. The IG is not meant to fight Godzilla and win, not unless the Emperor Himself smiles upon the lowly Guardsman.

Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.


That's because they pretty much are. The Conscripts are to IG Infantry what Cultists are to CSM or Grots are to Ork Boyz. They're not supposed to be compared to one another. Don't compare Cultists to Grots or IG Conscripts to Cultists. They're not the same thing.

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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

bibotot wrote:
I can't see it. I can't see how this one faction fit the far future. This faction sucks,the Codex, that is. I have seen Grey Knights losing 300 points to mishap including Warlord in turn 1 and still win against them. I don't want to insult anyone playing the AM, and I am myself a huge fan of Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, but this particular faction is so poorly represented on the table top game. I don't think I have ever seen any AM army winning tournaments. Here are the reasons why:

- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.

With FRFSRF I regularly put out about 60-80ish shots. As a sig once said, that's a whole lot of diddly and on every other occasion you'll probably heavily damage an infantry unit, scoring at least a few casualties usually.

- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.

Except Mob Rule is laughable because it no longer makes you fearless- you can literally lose a few shirt boys, fail your LD7, then get a bad result on Mob Rule twice (this is hardly impossible given how luck based the game can be at times) so your 24~ Boy Mob runs away. A Commissar gives you pseudo-fearless as you will never suffer penalties from a failed morale check so long as he executes someone. And you get GTG.

- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.

Yes, but go in cover and the only difference between Guardsmen and Marines defensively for the most part is a single point of toughness.

- Baneblade is not enough, and now they are putting different guns on the same chassis?

....

Hahahahahaha. That practice has been ridiculously common since the tank was invented and you had things like the Mark 1 where it had its weapons switched out between ordnance and machine guns. Everyone and his dog has been doing it for a hundred years.


- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.

I use a combination of Vendettas, Executioners and the Pask Punisher. Every unit in my army has AP2/1 except my Chimeras. I do not struggle with 5-6 wound MC's.

- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model.

A meaty Ork Mob usually reaches about 220~ points with the Nob. I can have a fearless 30 man blob of Guardsmen for 175 points that can hold off a fair amount of infantry, especially with fire support.

- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.

Yes, but for 175 points I could have 50 fearless Conscripts, while with Cultists there is no economical or effective way to run them in hordes period.

It pains me because I was a fan of the Guards reading novels about them. All the awesomeness, all for NOTHING. I am never going to touch these guys unless they make lasgun S4 AP6 and Guardsmen 7 points per model. Hellgun should be S4 AP4. Remove the Conscripts altogether.

....hahaha.



As others have said, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/27 21:37:23


 
   
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Hallowed Canoness





Between

bibotot wrote:

- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.


Shootas are not firing 'scrap bullets'. Shootas fire massive hunks of metal big enough and fast enough to have the same killing power as 1" diametre high explosive rounds.

The lasgun is equivalent to a 7.62×51mm NATO rifle, except it carries a significantly higher number of rounds and is considerably lighter and easier to carry.



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Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller






Carlisle, UK

The troll is strong with this one.


2000pts IG. ( based on fallout US Army)

3000pts XIIth Legiones Astartes 8th Assault Company. (Pre heresy)

never in the field of human conflict, has so much been fired at so many, by so few.

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions. Loyal servant to the true emperor Marcus Aurelius. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife. And I will have my vengeance, in this life or the next.
Please leave your message after the tone...
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




bibotot wrote:
I can't see it. I can't see how this one faction fit the far future. This faction sucks,the Codex, that is. I have seen Grey Knights losing 300 points to mishap including Warlord in turn 1 and still win against them. I don't want to insult anyone playing the AM, and I am myself a huge fan of Gaunt's Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain, but this particular faction is so poorly represented on the table top game. I don't think I have ever seen any AM army winning tournaments. Here are the reasons why:



(1) find better players.
(2) have said players 'learn to play'.
(3) weep as the guard steamroll the opposition.

Guard are solid. As discussed by others above.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/27 21:49:22


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

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The Conquerer






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Lasguns are far superior to any modern fire arm. its just that compared to all the huge nasty things in the 41st millennium they're rather weak comparatively.

A heavy stubber is Str4 ap6. The Heavy Stubber is, literally, a .50cal. The good old M2 .50 is still in production in the far future.

Lasguns are actually a very good weapon, logistically speaking. Its still strong enough to threaten most infantry sized targets when used in large numbers. And its cheap, easy to maintain, simple to use, and it only requires energy for ammo. Thats why the guard use it. Bolters, which are basically .75 caliber rocket propelled automatic rifled grenade launchers, are far more expensive. No way are you equipping everyone with a bolter. if the Imperium could, they would, but they can't, so they shant!

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Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland


- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3  ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.
- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.
- Baneblade is not enough, and now they are putting different guns on the same chassis?
- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model. 
- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.


That's the point. Orks were encountered, the basic stuff of humanity (lasguns) weren't up to it so the bolter was created which was effective due to its massive stopping power vs their hardened biology. The numbers of the orks and the difficulty is the point. Its grimdark. This is the case with all alien movies and settings, from Predator to Starship Troopers, where the alien needs 20 shots vs a human who needs 1. Ork shootas are big fethers of guns. They fire huge rounds at a phenomenal ROF.

Ork punches his mate because his mate isn't running fast enough. Leather jacket/metal plate stops it. They then get back to smashing humies.
Commissar puts 1 bolter round through the skull (fluffwise, .75 armour penetrating explosive round at point blank range. Rules-wise, Str 4 AP5, and pressed against his head it is guarenteed to hit and wound.). If the man somehow survives the Commissar fires again until dead.

Bolter rounds are .75 calibre armour penetrating explosive rounds for taking down things much larger than humans wearing kevlar. Tau Pulse rifles fire plasma slugs, Eldar shurikens and DE Splinters fire monomolecular discs and needles respectively, like tiny ninja stars and pins that can pass through the fibres of their clothes. Necron Gauss strips molecules from the target. Tyranid Fleshborers (Str4 AP5) fire beetles the size of your fist that chew through your face. A kevlar vest and your breeches arn't going to help.

They've been doing that for years and its the same as every other Imperial vehicle. Its the way they build. Take a chassis, put on weapons, give the pattern a name and call it a day.

Like every other race? Asides from ID the only way to kill a 6 wound MC is weight of fire which IG do best.

So your models are cheaper than what are described as an innumerable horde that have spread everywhere it is possible to spread in the universe? Next.

Part of the setting, stop hating on the company with no good reason, stop hating on the army because you got beat and then go get good at the damn game and stop whining about how your army loses to the Orks who's new Codex screwed over numerous playstyles (Ghazkul nob and Meganob lists, Wazdakka Biker Boyz) and moved their best HQ to a slot competing with Titans and giving him the nerfbat. Meanwhile IG have been fairly solid since their last Codex at the start of 5th Ed way back in 2008 and asides from some minor characters, most things stayed the same, got cheaper or more bang for their buck, your best HQ stays in HQ slot and frees your LoW to chuck out an Outflanking Baneblade (or just switch the gun and call it another name) or Titan, plus Imperial Knights, and allies with the following Codexes: Space Marines, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Inquisition, Sisters of Battle, Assassins, Stormtroopers (which you can field as part of your IG force anyway) and supplements for those armies like Sentinals of Terra, Clan Raakun, Legion of the Damned, Champions of Fenris. Whereas Orks get 1 measley supplement for Ghaz, who is now in the BS LoW slot competing with Titans and Stompas, and Nerfed to kingdom come alongside being unable to field Nobs as troops.

No no, IG get the short end of the stick

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Astra are a strong army. I don't know where you are playing. You can make a crap list, but GK have zero chance against an average player.

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Marines: 9500 points
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Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

As for being porrly represented and awesome, no they are not. Fact is that humans are an incredible squishy fragile creature. Trying to match them against the races of 40k is like asking a spaniel to fight lions, pythons and gorillas. The Orks are vastly most resilient, the Eldar of both kinds far too advanced and quick, the Tau too technologically advanced, the Necrons too resilent and advanced. Cain and Gaunt get away on plot armour. Its for story purposes. If it were any regular guardsmen they would be dead in the first chapter. Same for any action movie or TV show. Heroes get away at the last minute or die and the thing ends on shock value.

To summarise, being a human in the 41st Millenium is suicide. Going to war against vastly superior foes is suicide. That's what Space Marines, who can actually compete with the others in terms of resilience, speed, technology and add their own brand of gung-ho faith and determination that makes action heroes succeed.

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I do wish that the idiosyncrasies of different guard regiments were more pronounced (bring back doctrines) but I otherwise like the way they're just ballsy, disciplined troops going about their business. Also plenty of room for historical inspired conversions.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




How to play Guard in 4 easy steps.

#1: Pretend your Armour Save does not exist. Cover and Transports are your friends.

#2: Pretend Lasguns do not exist. Bring lots of better guns and have a celebration every time a Lasgun actually does kill something.

#3: Pick a freakin theme. Too many people grab a lil of this and a lil of that thinking it'll all mesh. Don't allow people that chance to kill the one thing that scares them, because you brought multiples.

#4: Bubblewrap only goes so far. You probably want an ally to help stop things before they hit your lines.


On a side note, I also think Conscripts are practically worthless. If you didn't have to buy them as part of a Platoon they would be a valid choice imo. When you've already bought a PCS and a mini-blob just to unlock them, you can't take advantage of how cheap they are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/28 00:41:03


 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 Deadshot wrote:
As for being porrly represented and awesome, no they are not. Fact is that humans are an incredible squishy fragile creature. Trying to match them against the races of 40k is like asking a spaniel to fight lions, pythons and gorillas. The Orks are vastly most resilient, the Eldar of both kinds far too advanced and quick, the Tau too technologically advanced, the Necrons too resilent and advanced. Cain and Gaunt get away on plot armour. Its for story purposes. If it were any regular guardsmen they would be dead in the first chapter. Same for any action movie or TV show. Heroes get away at the last minute or die and the thing ends on shock value.

To summarise, being a human in the 41st Millenium is suicide. Going to war against vastly superior foes is suicide. That's what Space Marines, who can actually compete with the others in terms of resilience, speed, technology and add their own brand of gung-ho faith and determination that makes action heroes succeed.



Honestly the weakness of the single guardsman in the best part. There is nothing better than a puny guardsman punching way above his weight to save the day.

A few games back I had a regular non upgraded Sgt face off against 2 wound remaining Ghazghkull in challenge once. His nob squad with painboy and armor had made it through tons of artillery and lasgun shots. The rest of his nobs ate his squad. The Sgt did a single wound before turning into paste bringing the Beast down to 1W. Next turn it took two a Vulture and Punisher Pask to score that last wound. They did have to chew through the rest of his squad. However, that Sgt did his job. He died standing while holding the line effectively doing the same thing as around 500 points of other models.

Just like Ollanius Pius
   
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On moon miranda.

IG have problems, but they're not the worst army. Most of their armor is exceedingly easy for most armies armies to deal with in the era of HP's and none of them have been changed in cost or abilities to account for that, and the infantry, unless blobbed, is all easy to kill and not all costed accordingly, particularly heavy weapons units. The IG army sticks relatively close to the "basic" rules, not a whole lot that's Fast, no overlapping saves, their psykers aren't terribly impressive, nothing that can produce an on-demand 3+ jink save in the open, or any of the other things that keep the big dogs at the top. There's some awful internal balance on top of all that, only exacerbated by the newest codex.


That said, they aren't awful, they're just somewhat awkward.

To the specific complains

Commissar Executes - kind of a pain, but not the end of the world, especially if used in a large blob where you won't care what gets lost, and that's usually the only place they're worth taking in the first place.

Lasguns - that's the way they've always been. They're not impressive, but whatever, guardsmen are cheap.

Hotshot Lasgun - no argument, it sucks hard, as do the Stormtrooper/Scion units in general, the AP3 is largely irrelevant, the short range and low S has crippled Stormtroopers forever and GW thinks AP3 makes everything better.

5+ armor - yeah, it's largely pointless, but the infantry are cheap anyway. They're not supposed to be Space Marines. If you compared IG to other like units, such as Cultists or Guardians or whatnot, they don't come out all that bad, it's just when the basic troop is a T4 3+sv infantry unit, perceptions shift.

Baneblade - not sure what you're getting at here.

6 Wound MC's - there's nothing in the game that deals with these terribly effectively, you usually need several units to engage these.

5pt Guardsmen - Yeah, Ork boyz are way better. They're not spectacularly well priced, but cheap enough. The game has a meta-problem with infantry this cheap, in that very small adjustments make huge differences, taking 2ppm off makes them absurdly cheap, 1ppm more makes them clearly overcosted, they could stand to be 4ppm, but that's just me.

Conscripts - yeah, kinda pointless, especially with platoon blobs, goes back to that whole "bad internal balance" thing.

There's bigger things to worry about than most of these. The absurd prices of Hellhounds+variants, awful state of almost all IG Elites, the core game rules making non-skimmer Medium armor a joke, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/28 01:14:59


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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Powerful Pegasus Knight





I play guard in the most unorthodox fashion. I don't use any wheeled or tracked vehicles (except the forge world tauros in the future as that works with my fluff) because they live on a forest planet where trees regrow in a years time. There are no roads because of this and thus they have to use vehicles and equipment that can operate in these conditions. That leaves Sentinels and aircraft. My regiment is a volunteer veteran organization that is not officially affiliated with the imperial guard. It receives its gear from the home world and by being contracted by imperial commanders and inquisitors. They are a very different force because of their home world and very selective recruitment process.

All of my troops are veterans and have camo cloaks.
I need sentinels which can perform a multipurpose roles
I need aircraft for rapid insertion and Anti Tank.

What the book is lacking for me is the ability to give my light infantry guys infiltrate. Since i rely on sentinels and aircraft for "heavy support" i need to run unbound armies which makes it even harder to get the infiltrate warlord trait.
Something that would also be amusing is if they gave imperial guardsmen stuff like the auxiliary krak grenade launchers.

The book itself is great and is highly competitive, there is no real problem with it if you play a traditional force. There must be something inherently wrong with op's list or something, because even i can get wins now and then.
   
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The real strengths of the IG is the ability to bring lots of everything and the ability to meta any threat you might encounter. the key to IG is knowing which units to bring into your army list for the battle at hand.

I went undefeated this season with my 91st Cadians. This was versus Grey Knights, Salamanders, Ultramarines, Tyranids, Eldar, and Necrons. Creating the proper matchups where your units will be at their most effective is the key to running with the IG.

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Between

 Sledgehammer wrote:
I play guard in the most unorthodox fashion. I don't use any wheeled or tracked vehicles (except the forge world tauros in the future as that works with my fluff) because they live on a forest planet where trees regrow in a years time. There are no roads because of this and thus they have to use vehicles and equipment that can operate in these conditions. That leaves Sentinels and aircraft. My regiment is a volunteer veteran organization that is not officially affiliated with the imperial guard. It receives its gear from the home world and by being contracted by imperial commanders and inquisitors. They are a very different force because of their home world and very selective recruitment process.

All of my troops are veterans and have camo cloaks.
I need sentinels which can perform a multipurpose roles
I need aircraft for rapid insertion and Anti Tank.

What the book is lacking for me is the ability to give my light infantry guys infiltrate. Since i rely on sentinels and aircraft for "heavy support" i need to run unbound armies which makes it even harder to get the infiltrate warlord trait.
Something that would also be amusing is if they gave imperial guardsmen stuff like the auxiliary krak grenade launchers.

The book itself is great and is highly competitive, there is no real problem with it if you play a traditional force. There must be something inherently wrong with op's list or something, because even i can get wins now and then.


Still say you should use the Elysian rules as a whole, they describe your army fluff perfectly.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in au
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker





I have played Guard for going on four years now, and loved every second of it. I've found them to be a very flexible army in terms of gameplay, and the fluff with them is open enough that I can run them as a Baal PDF and no one questions it, because mine are red

Gameplay wise, I have two rules.
1) Keep them cheap
2) Bring enough Guardsmen so that when half your infantry dies in a turn, you still outnumber your opponent
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






And yet....
Point for point there is no more effective basic infantry weapon against other basic infantry than a lasgun, even before the order that makes them 33% more effective.

Funny, that.

No tools to beat MCs? Massed Lascannons, vendettas or the insanely nasty Paskisher don't count I guess. Pask puts about 10 wounds on a Riptide, with 4 on average being AP2.

Maybe your resident IG player (or you, if that's you) needs to actually learn to use their army.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

I call troll, too.
- Worst-looking models ever, apart from those Tempestus and Voystran guys. Cadians look more generic than Space Marines when you consider the popular culture, not just heavy sci-fi, but also stuffs in close future. Even the generic guys in Halo and Gears of Wars look better.
Those are the default official models, and there are lots of official variants.
- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.
Command squad orders vary this. Get enough dice rolling, they take down Terminators, hordes, everything below T7.
- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.
Point-blank shots hurt, a lot. Also, that Commissar is going to keep shooting until the Serg is dead.
- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.
Use cover or transports. Use tactics, not heavy, costly, armour.
- Baneblade is not enough, and now they are putting different guns on the same chassis?
Mass-produced chassis, multiple variants. You want to complain about the Rhino chassis, too?
- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.
Weight-of-fire. Or the various squadrons of S8-10 cannons.
- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model.
An Ork Boy has a superior stat-line. S4, T4 etc. A horde of Shootas might survive the first volley, but would easily win in a punch-up.
- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.
Welcome to the Grimdark Imperium.
It pains me because I was a fan of the Guards reading novels about them. All the awesomeness, all for NOTHING. I am never going to touch these guys unless they make lasgun S4 AP6 and Guardsmen 7 points per model. Hellgun should be S4 AP4. Remove the Conscripts altogether.
Fluff =/= gameplay. The awesomeness of the IG/AM comes from the litttle-guy holding his own against the galaxy. Heroes like the Ghosts are the inspiration the man-in-the-street needs to sign up in the first place (if he gets a choice).
Conscripts are not compulsory.

6000 pts - 4000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 1000 ptsDS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
IG/AM force nearly-finished pieces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-38888-41159_Armies%20-%20Imperial%20Guard.html
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK 
   
Made in gb
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian




Conscripts are absolutely awsome. Lets forget about allies making them even better for a moment. 50 conscripts with a priest cost 175pts, are fearless, reroll failed hits and usually wounds in combat. Can camp an objective all game long, can tie up meaty assault units for most of the game and can give you massive board control.
40 conscripts with priest do the same and cost 145pts. A bare bones 10 man tactical squad with flamer costs the same. Guess which is tougher on average, guess which is least likely to fall back, guess which mathmatically puts out more firepower, guess which is more dangerous in combat? The answer to all is the conscripts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/28 11:51:29


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





In regards to the OP I have to agree, you or your resident local IG/AM player needs to learn his army a bit better and you really need to talk to people about their armies that know what they are doing, you CLEARLY don't have a lot of information when it comes to the IG. A lot of it seems that you are going off fluff compared to gameplay, they HAVE to dumb it down for the game or otherwise you would have armies like Space Marines being 6's across the board base with AP3 guns! The IG are a strong army and have some of the best flexibility available in the entire game, this includes being able to ally with other Imperial Armies and have access to their toys. However I do agree on a few points:

-Models are not great, nothing against Cadian players I just don't like the look mainly because they are the only readily available plastic option besides Catachans (don't ask me about Catachans). It is solved however by biting the bullet and going either Forgeworld Elysians (the best! ) or DKOK or even getting pewter Steel Legion.

-More variety is needed in the book, they really need or needed to bring back Doctrines. I understand that how they designed the book was to try and give you enough options to do so, however the 4th edition Guard Codex (if I remember correctly it was this one) will always be one of my favorites just because of Doctrines as it actually gave your regiment some uniqueness.

-Hot Shot Lasguns on Storm Troopers, now don't get me wrong. I understand a standard Lasgun being S3 and to me it makes perfect sense. Now in the fluff a Hot Shot Lasgun is a much more powerful beam that can penetrate power armor and readily deal with the tougher opponents of the Imperium (read the Militarium Tempestus book for more info for example). I personally would be okay with a S4 AP4 weapon over the S3 AP3 but that's just me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/28 12:03:28


19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

Whilst I don't agree with all of the OP's points, I do feel that my IG are completely outclassed at the moment. And, when I say outclassed, I mean it even by IG standards.

Oh well, at least I can enjoy my army's unusual theme.

bibotot wrote:

- Worst-looking models ever, apart from those Tempestus and Voystran guys. Cadians look more generic than Space Marines when you consider the popular culture, not just heavy sci-fi, but also stuffs in close future. Even the generic guys in Halo and Gears of Wars look better.


Well, it's certainly true that most guardsmen look like angry-potatoes (or, just to mix things up, potatoes having strokes). However, nice 28mm human miniatures aren't exactly hard to find elsewhere - and (if you happen to be a lottery-winner) Forge World do some very nice IG infantry.

bibotot wrote:

- Lasgun is S3 no AP. WTF? Even scrap bullets from Shootas are S4 AP6. Why are you making laser weapons when machine guns firing bullets are vastly superior? Hellgun is S3 AP3. Again with the S3 ? It takes 5+ to wound an Ork, and there are lots of Orks out there. That's bad.


Hellgun is awful (and worse still when it jacks up the price of Scions), but Lasguns aren't so bad. They're naff individually, but on 5pt models they can be decent en mass (especially with First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!).

bibotot wrote:

- Commissar executes...no saves allowed. Orks beating up each other does allow the T-shirt to come in handy.


Well, it wouldn't be much of an execution of the man didn't actually die.

COMMISSAR - Deserters will be shot!
*shoots a fleeing guardsman*
*guardsman gets up*
GUARDSMAN - I'm ok! My armour actually stopped the bullet. Ha! First time for everything.
*guardsman continues running*
GUARDSMAN #2 - "Sir, can we run away and be shot as deserters too? Only, your weapon seems far less fatal than the enemy's weapons..."

bibotot wrote:

- Almost all infantry have 5+ armor. This is 90% the equivalent of 6+ considering the standard weapons of many races are AP5, Tau Pulse Rifle, Eldar Shuriken, Space Marine bolter and Necron Gauss.


Just pretend you're using Storm Troopers.

bibotot wrote:

- No real weapon to take down 6 wound MC effectively.


Well, it depends on the MC. Flying ones are certainly a problem. Same with the Riptide and Wraithknight. But then, that's less of a problem with IG, and more a problem with flier rules being borked, and the latter two being OP.

However, most others are pretty susceptible to plasma and meltaguns - and our veteran squads can take 3 of either.

bibotot wrote:

- Infantry is 5 points per model. That is bs. Ork Boyz are 6 points per model.


I think part of the problem is that GW has written themselves into a corner when it comes to unit costs. Small changes at this level make a massive difference, and they don't seem to want to use costs like 4.5. it probably doesn't help that marines were made 14pts per model - which really didn't leave much wriggle room in terms of costing all weaker units.

Frankly, at this point, I'd settle for leaving IG infantry costs alone (with the possible exception of scions), and instead making the cost of our gear a bit more reasonable (e.g. put our power weapons/fists back to 5th edition prices).

In terms of the comparison with Ork Boyz, I'm a bit undecided. I mean, we do have better range (and, if I remember correctly, they do have to pay 1pt per model to get their 18" range weapons) and we have (arguably) better support stuff in terms of orders. In any case, with all the crap I see these days, Ork Boyz make for a pleasant change.

Also, if it makes you feel any better, we do get saves against their guns.

bibotot wrote:

- Conscript defines how GW degrades human being into insects and Grotz. These guys are worse than unmarked Cultists.


Well, what do you expect? I mean, they're only human. Humans aren't particularly durable when it comes to surviving lasers, bullets etc. And, whilst they can be trained to be good in melee or shoot a gun accurately, those qualities are hardly present from birth. And, it's made pretty clear that, guardsmen and conscripts are just treated like ammunition by the Imperium.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/28 12:11:30


 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
 
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