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Ok guys (and gals), I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way because if I read a post like this about Cryx, I'd be the first to shout heresy and defend them too! ;-)

So, I play Cryx. I wanted to mix things up a little so added a few Mercs to my wish list (although I really don't think Cryx need them)... I also wanted a 2nd WM faction and have always liked the Khador models. I picked up the 2 player battlebox with a buddy and set about building my new faction, however...

After about 4 games I really can't see myself enjoying this faction. I only have the battlebox stuff so far so obviously I need to add to this.

Just for ref the battlebox models are:

pSorscha

Destroyer
Juggernaut

max Shocktroopers

I think my main issue is the simplicity of these models so I'm hoping that a few additions or replacements will spice things up a little.

I actually went on ebay last night to put these up for sale, thought I'd have a quick look at what was on there and ended up grabbing the Behemoth for a bargain price... so as they say, back to the drawing board! :-)

I've looked through the Casters and my shortlist would be p/eButcher, old witch(although this may be down to the Cryxie vibe I get from her) and Vlad3.

Sticking with Vlad3 I then went through to have a look at the cavalry options and I have to say I really like the models.

So with that in mind, how viable (i.e. fun to play and fairly competitive) would a cavalry heavy list be?

E.g.

Vlad3
Wardog
Behemoth

Max Outriders
Min Uhlans

Uhlan Markov
Man-o-war Drakhun

Comes in at 33pts, we usually play 35 so room for a little extra.

It would look very cool imo but it's an expensive list £s wise for me to try and change my mind so has anyone got an opinion on how that list would work?

I'm more than happy to stick some Widowmakers and some Manhunters in a list as I like those too.

The tricky part is that I don't really like the idea of a Winter Guard Deathstar.

So with all those pointers, am I wasting my time with Khador?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow! Sorry for the mammoth post... hope it isnt too much rambling!

You're all over the place here. Try to reel yourself in a bit....

The Khador box is not amazing IMO. Khador are not really a jack faction. You will hear this a lot. There are a few casters that can run many jacks well (Karchev, pVlad, pButcher) but these are not the norm. Most Khador lists you see will run one or two jacks as their casters don't really want to give up their focus.

Which brings me to Sorscha. You may notice later on she does not really play like any of the other Khador casters (Old Witch being another exception), who are far more tanky, this is partially a result of wanting to hold onto our focus due to lack of arc nodes and having to get up the field. I presume you've noticed pSorscha has the longest (unconditional) assassination range in our faction at 19" (Butcher3 has the furthest at 21" but it is not guaranteed)?

Now, I have no idea how long you've been playing this game, but Vlad3 all cav is very much a skew list. Just like Sorscha does not really give you the experience of a "typical" Khador caster IMO, Vlad3 all cav will not give you an idea of a "typical", middle of the road Khador list. If you're set on it I would stick with the theme list, 2 Drakhuns is just money and a single SPD8 jack on the first turn is scary (provided you give it Infernal Machine).

However this means you cannot take Big B. If you're going outside theme I would not go 100% cavalry, although this stymies your feat a little, just think of them as a bonus and don't base your army around it. IFP under dash (with a Kovnik tagging along) get super fast. Under shield march and dash they can shift 9" a turn. Similar can be said for the Great Bears, who now move as fast as Striders under dash and are immune to free strikes.

Drago is also a must take as he pretty much runs himself. Vlad3 likes his spells and will be throwing out a lot of focus, Behemoth, as good as he is is a little focus hungry (FWIW with the Vlads he works far better with the other two). Not to say he's bad, as he's not. Big B is fething awesome, but I'd prefer to spend my points on Drago if taking any of the Vlads.

Now, you're also missing one of Vlad3's best friends. Fenris. Fenris under the feat has to be seen to be believed. Side step+Berserk multiplied by two is sickening to witness. . Fenris will charge in, impact attack, first initial, side step deeper into unit, berserk, second initial, side step, berserk. See what I said about seeing it as a little bonus?

If you want to get Vlad3, he can be run with your existing stuff. MoW's under dash and the aforementioned IF Kovnik (shield march works on any unit doing shield wall, not just IF units) get a nice speed boost (moving 7" a turn in shield wall). Infernal machine can mitigate a Juggernaut's or Big B's lack of reach rather nicely.

I think you just need to focus on why you want the models and what you want out of them. If you are collecting them for the cool models then focus on the models, give them cool paint jobs, etc.

As for playing them, what do you want out of them? Do you want something completely different than Cryx? Or do you want a more subtle difference? What do you like/don't like about Cryx that you want/don't want in Khador?

Obviously they are different factions, but some things can be very similar. The Old Witch is a very Cryx-ish caster. Units like pikeman can be tough, but also deliver some pain.

IMO, the whole thing is about your expectations. So what are they?

@Grimtuff,

Ha yeah I was kind of all over the place! Trying to type that up on a phone while juggling a 4 year old dressed as Dracula probably wasn't the ideal way to start a thread! :-D

Some awesome pointers there for me. I hadn't considered Vlads theme, I'll have to look into Drago at some point. Oh and Fenris, he sounds fun!

I've been playing for a few years but very on and off up until about 6 months ago when a few us picked it up again, I've got plenty of Cryx and still love playing them but just wanted to mix things up a little for my regular opponents.

Out of the 4 games, I won 3 with the Assassination from Sorscha and I think the 4th was won on points by the Shocktroopers. She's certainly mobile and that 19" threat range is certainly nice to have! :-)

I'll def pick up Vlad and see how he mixes things up with what I have.

Thanks for the reply mate! B-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Mordekiem,

I think as different to Cryx the better really, Cryx tend to be a bit sneekier, high Def/low Arm and from what I've seen from Khador they're easier to hit but harder to break. I just hope I don't miss the speed and slyness of the Cryx too much.

As for the models, I really like the Cavalry pieces and I suppose the fact I don't have any Cavalry pieces for Cryx that's why I'm swaying that way!

I suppose I just need to bite the bullet and pick up a few additions before I can really make my mind up... guess I'm just thinking out loud! :-D

Khador is primarily a unit/infantry faction, which makes them a little more expensive than other factions. Not as bad as Cryx, but its up there.

The Khador box is quite awful. The Cryx and Cygnar battlegroups aren't so great either, though they give you better casters. The Menoth half of the 2p box is FAB if you make Bastions instead of Burninators. You can't really say that about MoW (DemoCorps are pretty boss though).

It's a bit of a bummer that Warmachine isn't as much about the jacks, but I think Khador gets the worst lot of the BB by getting two heavies. Ehhhh whatever, I'm tired and crabby and some kids stole all of my candy...

That cavalry list is quite brutal, but I've never seen Outriders in a game, now that I think about it. Definitely runnin' laps. I think the Dragonfather is calling to you though, and it's probably better to listen (unless you could, ya know, please kill him for Everblight if you don't mind).

Thats sort of a byproduct of the focus system being pretty limiting.

Jacks in general could use a boost.

I think, if Mk3 ever comes out, that jacks should all by default have the Jack Marshal bonus. To represent the benefit of being a mechanikal steam automaton. Jack Marshals would give twice the current bonus. Then you'd have the normal focus allocation limits.

So every jack basically has a boost, buy, or a charge available to it without any focus.

 Emperors_Champion wrote:


I've looked through the Casters and my shortlist would be p/eButcher, old witch(although this may be down to the Cryxie vibe I get from her) and Vlad3.

Sticking with Vlad3 I then went through to have a look at the cavalry options and I have to say I really like the models.

So with that in mind, how viable (i.e. fun to play and fairly competitive) would a cavalry heavy list be?

E.g.

Vlad3
Wardog
Behemoth

Max Outriders
Min Uhlans

Uhlan Markov
Man-o-war Drakhun

Comes in at 33pts, we usually play 35 so room for a little extra.

It would look very cool imo but it's an expensive list £s wise for me to try and change my mind so has anyone got an opinion on how that list would work?

I'm more than happy to stick some Widowmakers and some Manhunters in a list as I like those too.

The tricky part is that I don't really like the idea of a Winter Guard Deathstar.

So with all those pointers, am I wasting my time with Khador?

in 2013, for a variety of reasons, including faction burnout, i walked away from Khador. In 2014, i fell in love with the faction again, and embraced the cold north like a lost friend. And being honest, and pardon the pun, but vlad 3 was one of the major reasons that i got back in the saddle again.

Alongside Butcher 3, he is my favourite Khador caster. He is just rock solid, across the board. he has a great asassination threat, can supersolo, and can offer great support to his army. hist theme list is brilliant fun.

Regarding cavalry, im of the opinion that cavalry is great. its warmachine's untapped resource, and something no one really looked at for a long time, thanks to winter guard deathstars and the like. More and more though, you'll see PP mixing in more and more single-wound infantry hate in the game. Colossals were the start - lots of autohitting effects, suppressive fire etc. this trend has only contined with recent releases like the sacred vault. Now please note, im not saying single wound infantry is pointless, just that there are a lot of answers to them now, and those answers have created a niche and a validation for what cavalry brings to the table. its not that they're now overpowered or any such thing, its that the game has shifted so that they now have a viable role.

that vlad3 list you have looks remarkably similar to my own one that i run (mine is 50ts and has fenris, widowmakers and eliminators). With 4 cav solos, i call it my four horsemen list. Vlad is solid, the uhlan boat requires careful timing and positioning, but in my opinion is a brilliant unit. good speed, hitting power, and staying power. outriders with hand of fate are nothing short of bonkers, and the drakhun is a solid faction staple. with the feat, you've got two nasty alphastrikes and can deal a surprising amount of damage, as well as having remarkable manoevreability.

the winter guard deathstar is fine and well, but you dont need it. stick with your cavalry. I've never had as much fun with khador as i've been having lately with all the horses.

As a long time Khador player I will tell you the following - this is a collectors faction. Unlike most other factions where you can purchase a smattering of different options and successfully run almoet any list with them, Khador is one of those factions where you really do end up needing to buy almost everything under the sun to get the most out of our casters.

And a Khador cavalry list is super fluffy.
(Cav was Khador's big thing until Jacks were invented and even then they keep it around for tradition's sake.)

I went the opposite way with my new Menoth army.

At first I really disliked the models, but loved the rules.

I now really like the models and still like the rules.

I'm still trying to decide which direction to go with my Khador army. I got the battle box with Sorcha, but don't know where to go. I might do something way out there and get the Old Witch and her scrapjack just for giggles.

@mel'deaf, I actually play Legion as well so I suppose I could send a shot or two in the Dragonfathers direction!... maybe! ;-)

Thanks all the replies guys, I get the feeling that after I get Vlad3 and try him out a bit I'll probably end up dropping all the battlebox stuff... maybe even Big B if I decide to go theme.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm still trying to decide which direction to go with my Khador army. I got the battle box with Sorcha, but don't know where to go. I might do something way out there and get the Old Witch and her scrapjack just for giggles.

You could do worse than check out the steelhead cavalry boat (steelhead cav, stannis and halberdiers) with her. Iron flesh or Weald secrets with the cavalry is extremely nasty. And you can't go wrong with their damage output either

Generally, she offers iron flesh to the army, and a brutal control feat. Beyond that, she offers nothing in terms of accuracy boosts or damage boosts. You'll need to build around those limitations and look to self sufficient, high mat and high damage units as your mainstay. Thankfully, this is khador and that's what they do.

Deadnight wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm still trying to decide which direction to go with my Khador army. I got the battle box with Sorcha, but don't know where to go. I might do something way out there and get the Old Witch and her scrapjack just for giggles.

You could do worse than check out the steelhead cavalry boat (steelhead cav, stannis and halberdiers) with her. Iron flesh or Weald secrets with the cavalry is extremely nasty. And you can't go wrong with their damage output either

Generally, she offers iron flesh to the army, and a brutal control feat. Beyond that, she offers nothing in terms of accuracy boosts or damage boosts. You'll need to build around those limitations and look to self sufficient, high mat and high damage units as your mainstay. Thankfully, this is khador and that's what they do.

Excellent suggestions!