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The other day a guy showed up to my flgs with a space marine army and the infantry were all GW models, but all the land raider and rhino models were clearly 3D printed. Curious what the community thinks.

I couldnt care less.

All just targets to me.

I would play against Lego men if that is all my opponent had.

Yep, it is none of my business how my opponent reconciles the cost of playing with what their income allows. As long as it is clear what it represents, and preferably doesn't look like crap, I have no issue at all.

For the person who already voted "no not at all" have a word with yourself would you?!

If it looks okay, sure.

Depends on how it looks. I've seen a 3D printed Leman Russ and it didn't look all that great. If it's covered in lines from a poor print job and/or not even painted then I would probably not look on it too favourably.

IIRC What could be called a home printer is about 3000 dollars and just doesn't have the "image quality" to be up to snuff for miniature printing.

Also IIRC commercial plastic printers aren't up to it either.

TBH I expect it to be probably 5-25 years to have a home printer that can put out the proper quality and be cheap enough.

Of course the plastic ink atm costs an arm and leg and I doubt it's gonna change much. so the more things change they more the stay the same...

Basically what I'm saying is that it is cheaper to just buy em first or second hand unless you have free/cheap access to a printer.

I play miniature games for the tactile and visual aesthetic. So if they do a good job of it I will be happy to.

Actually, I have a handful of models I have printed myself (you get a significant discount on 3D printers for being in the education field). I have 3 eldar void shield generators made of clear plastic tinted with enamels and some dragons teeth tank traps. GW doesn't make them, thus I ported models from Dawn of War: Soulstorm, lol.

If the model is recognizable, obvious and correctly proportioned, I don't care where it came from and would even use it myself. I wouldn't fault someone for it any more than I'd fault someone for sculpting a model from Green Stuff or Resin at home.

Honest question for the whippersnappers...how would I know if an opponents model was 3D printed?

I play with peoplewho scratch build alot of stuff...so what would the giveaway be? (to answer your question though, I wouldn't care one bit. What do I care if British tycoons who're attempting to screw me into poverty over a line of toys earn enough dough for their thirteenth Bentley?)

 jasper76 wrote:
Honest question for the whippersnappers...how would I know if an opponents model was 3D printed?

3D printers for personal use aren't amazing quality so leave print lines on curves and slants as seen on the shoulder pads on on the SM in this pic

Oh....yuk. I'd still play against any of those models imaged. Close enough!

The printers can match GW for such models as tanks. Only issue I've seen is the 3D model being printed sucks.

One day I hope to only play against people with 3D printed models

No problem if the models look right.

I've got a friend who uses an up scaled 3D printed Dreadnought, it looks good and is much harder for him to hide in cover. I don't mind so much

I allready do,

You ask if we play against printed, but two valuable pieces of info are mising:

1-quality of the print. if its looks like lego and if it looks proper makes two different cases.


2-reasoning of the print. wanting to get some unique shoulder pads and poses is one thing, printing an identical looking rhino is another.

 BoomWolf wrote:
You ask if we play against printed, but two valuable pieces of info are mising:

1-quality of the print. if its looks like lego and if it looks proper makes two different cases.

Why, do you refuse to play people with poorly painted/assembled models too? How it looks is not important as long as what it represents
is clear.

2-reasoning of the print. wanting to get some unique shoulder pads and poses is one thing, printing an identical looking rhino is another.

How does your opponents motivations and reasoning impact on your game?

You wouldn't download a bear, would you!?

I wouldn't care. If its obvious what it is, I'm fairly happy to play against it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yep, it is none of my business how my opponent reconciles the cost of playing with what their income allows. As long as it is clear what it represents, and preferably doesn't look like crap, I have no issue at all.

For the person who already voted "no not at all" have a word with yourself would you?!

As the first person to vote "no, not at all", I'll share my reasoning.

The main reason is that I personally feel that it is unethical (it can be compared to stealing IMO) to print copies of models.

As posted by calamarialldayerrday:

I wouldn't buy recasts. I have no problem buying things that look similar, with "borrowed" ideas (think Puppets of War) etc., but the recasts are just straight up stolen. I pirate digital material all the time, but not physical objects. It is different. Digital information is designed to be copyable, propagating, but physical things are different. You are doing a disservice to the original creators.

I find 3D printed models to be akin to recasts.


However, I don't mind 3D printing certain parts of the model.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Reasoning of the print. wanting to get some unique shoulder pads and poses is one thing, printing an identical looking rhino is another.

If someone wants to make unique shoulder pads, rhino doors, and other minor aesthetics is great, and I would play against that.

However, if someone was to print entire models, I wouldn't play against it.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
You ask if we play against printed, but two valuable pieces of info are mising:

1-quality of the print. if its looks like lego and if it looks proper makes two different cases.

Why, do you refuse to play people with poorly painted/assembled models too? How it looks is not important as long as what it represents
is clear.

Because the quality CAN be that low that I'm having a hard time to understand what I'm seeing.

There is low quality, and there is unreasonable quality, when you see the latter, you'd recognize it.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
2-reasoning of the print. wanting to get some unique shoulder pads and poses is one thing, printing an identical looking rhino is another.

How does your opponents motivations and reasoning impact on your game?

The game directly? none at all. the community in general? it does.
We got our local shop, who does plenty of discount sells maintain a large club for us to play for minimal fees in and are generally awesome guys, a printer who does it just to "feth the system" and does not even make anything of unique value (or even save any meaningful amount of money, the printers aint cheap), is not the type of folk I'd like to hang around with.

Again, its a case-by-case scenario here, no hard line that I can point at, but if I run into it, I'd recognize it.

It would look gakky. But then again, a lot of armies I play against look gakky.

Windchild wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yep, it is none of my business how my opponent reconciles the cost of playing with what their income allows. As long as it is clear what it represents, and preferably doesn't look like crap, I have no issue at all.

For the person who already voted "no not at all" have a word with yourself would you?!

As the first person to vote "no, not at all", I'll share my reasoning.

The main reason is that I personally feel that it is unethical (it can be compared to stealing IMO) to print copies of models.

As posted by calamarialldayerrday:

I wouldn't buy recasts. I have no problem buying things that look similar, with "borrowed" ideas (think Puppets of War) etc., but the recasts are just straight up stolen. I pirate digital material all the time, but not physical objects. It is different. Digital information is designed to be copyable, propagating, but physical things are different. You are doing a disservice to the original creators.

I find 3D printed models to be akin to recasts.


However, I don't mind 3D printing certain parts of the model.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Reasoning of the print. wanting to get some unique shoulder pads and poses is one thing, printing an identical looking rhino is another.

If someone wants to make unique shoulder pads, rhino doors, and other minor aesthetics is great, and I would play against that.

However, if someone was to print entire models, I wouldn't play against it.

Firstly, it is never to correct to refer to IP violations as theft. Theft requires the physical removal of property, and is a criminal act, IP violation does not and is a civil offence.

Secondly, yet again, as with the recast debate, we have people (not just you) drawing arbitrary lines in the sand with very little hard logic to back it up. Firstly, prints are not akin to recasts, unless you think people are hacking into GW's server and stealing the 3D models off their system, any printed material is likely to be based off of a CAD model designed from scratch. Now, if that model happens to look like an existing model, how do you differentiate between any of the "not-whatever" alternate models out there and a printed model? At what point does a model become too much like the model it is representing to be acceptable?

I guess someone could buy and build the model, laser scan it into a 3D modelling program then make the files available for free online, that might be more akin to recasting, but I can't really see that being a huge issue in the current climate.

Also, morally, there's not really a huge distinction between playing someone who has a single, 3D printed shoulder pad with some IP infringing iconography on it and an entire army, it is akin to being ok with someone stabbing a person a bit and condemning them for stabbing them a lot.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
You ask if we play against printed, but two valuable pieces of info are mising:

1-quality of the print. if its looks like lego and if it looks proper makes two different cases.

Why, do you refuse to play people with poorly painted/assembled models too? How it looks is not important as long as what it represents
is clear.

Because the quality CAN be that low that I'm having a hard time to understand what I'm seeing.

There is low quality, and there is unreasonable quality, when you see the latter, you'd recognize it.

But that's not an issue specific to printed models is it? Scratch built models, or even extreme examples of kitbashes, paint jobs or poor assembly could make a model difficult to identify, not wishing to play against models that are hard to identify is a legitimate opinion, but not inherently to do with 3D models.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
2-reasoning of the print. wanting to get some unique shoulder pads and poses is one thing, printing an identical looking rhino is another.

How does your opponents motivations and reasoning impact on your game?

The game directly? none at all. the community in general? it does.
We got our local shop, who does plenty of discount sells maintain a large club for us to play for minimal fees in and are generally awesome guys, a printer who does it just to "feth the system" and does not even make anything of unique value (or even save any meaningful amount of money, the printers aint cheap), is not the type of folk I'd like to hang around with.

Again, its a case-by-case scenario here, no hard line that I can point at, but if I run into it, I'd recognize it.

Awful lot of assumptions here. What you're essentially saying is if the guy is a douche, you wouldn't want to play him? Agreed. But if he is a "feth the system" type guy, who is willing to, as you point out, do it for no significant saving, then how is he damaging a community by not buying models from the local store he wouldn't have bought anyway? Now, bringing your 3D printed models into a LGS is a douchey move, but that's more of a separate issue.

Personal taste or distaste needs no logic, we are not making a scientific argument here.

And as said, there is no strict line we can point at, yet the cases are obvious once encountered.

Alternate models for alternate appearance sake are fine, cool and nice.
COPIES, even lousy attempted ones, are insulting.

And there is a massive difference between a single shoulder plate and an entire army, and you know it damn well.
When someone has a single sholder pad the question that immediately rises is WHY-and most likely, he is missing one specific bit, getting it off bit shops was not possible so he went to print/cast it.
An entire army does not fall into the "no point buying a 75$ kit for a single tiny bit" stance. its not that without the ability to print/cast it himself he would have bought the entire kit, he would just give up that tiny stylization, no ACTUAL product sells were denied because of that pad. many sells were denied in the army.

And the printed models does not "happen to look like", it was DESIGNED to. it was its purpose.




As for kitbash being unrecogniseable-who said I'm accepting these? the model, whatever its source MUST be recognizable at the point minimum.

And the assumptions clause-this is why I said there is no clear line I can point at, its TOO case relative, too many virables you can only look at once a case appears in your eyes.
But bringing a printed copy-type army to the very gaming club that sells said models is a jerk action, and as I don't approve of it, I don't approve playing against it. by that tiny act I am putting my own small influence of "don't do that stuff"

 BoomWolf wrote:

And there is a massive difference between a single shoulder plate and an entire army, and you know it damn well.

Not if you're taking the stance that it is "wrong" there isn't.

Saying "I wouldn't play against a whole because I think it looks rubbish and it would mean I wouldn't enjoy the game" is a fine and valid viewpoint.

Making some sort of moral objection about the legality of it, then saying "but I'm ok with it if it is only a little bit illegal" is not, which is the point I was making.

Would you play with someone who was using a scratch built unit? Would you play with someone who recast weapons to build a unit?

I mean, why wouldn't you play against a 3d printed unit, as long as it was the correct size, clearly identifiable, WYSIWIG, and painted?

I have not seen anything 3d printed yet that looked comparable to the kits, though I'm sure it's coming. I love the whole idea, frankly

Again, you are asking questions in a void that cannot be answered BECAUSE its in a void. and you are doing it on purpose.

Reasons matter, intentions matter, thats why attempted murder lands you more jailtime than accidental manslaughter (extreme example, but the point stands)


My problem is not the legality of it, a single unobtainable bit is just as illegal (less so in fact, due to its far lesser value than a full kit, but whatever), but it does not send the same message across, nor does it donate to the same behavior.

A scratch built unit? sure, no problem. as long there is a valid REASON. heck, I got my own. and my reasoning is as simple as "shame to waste all these bits I already had from other kits, might as well do SOMETHING with it", and it goes fine with the surrounding.

Recast weapons? depends. is it easily massed-obtained bolters? or is it a specific hard to get gun that is the only bit he needed? (like getting grav guns for his old marines)
Maybe its a weapon that only comes in metal, and he wanted one he can actually use properly? that's cool.
A replica meltagun just so he can run multiples off a single kit, less appreciative, but not likely to be a gamebraker on its own.

I'm not making a moral stance here, I'm making a tasteful stance. replicating the works of others in order to avoid paying them is distasteful to me and I refuse to go along with it, but when its made in small scale, for things that are obviously not making a difference, its not enough to pull me off.

There is no "line in the sand", there is a small slope, and when I feel uncomfortable of where I stand, I leave.

You're looking for the term "Copyright Infringement". Not theft. Just saying.

 BoomWolf wrote:
.

And the printed models does not "happen to look like", it was DESIGNED to. it was its purpose.

In that case, is be interested to know your stance on 3rd party minis that are quite clearly designed to be stand-ins for 40k? For example, Vic Minis not-Guardsmen or Anvil's not-SM? In the case of either those or 3d printed stuff, the following in true:

They are made, by design, to be a substitute for something in 40k
There are no real savings over GW kits
They are generally only available online, so do not support an LGS
They went through a design and manufacture process from scratch

In other words, how is Anvil making a CAD model that looks like a SM, printing it, casting it in resin and selling it any different from someone else following the same first 2/3 steps? The process is the same, the product is the same or similar, the only difference is that the individual is not selling it himself.

As far as the OP goes, my stance is that I game with the player, not the minis. If you're a decent guy, you can play with 3rd party, recasts, scratch builds, 3D prints, paper cutouts, whatever. I'd you're not, then you feth off even if you have a fully painted, GW only army.