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Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs 240
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs 240

1 Mucolid Spore 15
1 Mucolid Spore 15

3 Zoanthropes: Neurotrope 175

Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155

Toxicrene 160
Toxicrene 160
Carnifex Brood
• Carnifex: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms 150
Tyrannocyte 75
Tyrannocyte 75
Tyrannocyte 75
Tyrannocyte 75

1,765 points

Just to be clear, the Zoanthropes, Toxicrenes, and Dakkafex all go in pods. This leaves me with 85 points. I'd consider adding a Malanthrope, but I wouldn't be able to place it in a pod so it would be stuck in the backfield. Where would you allocate those points?

themadlbb wrote:
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs 240
Hive Tyrant: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; wings; electroshock grubs 240

1 Mucolid Spore 15
1 Mucolid Spore 15

3 Zoanthropes: Neurotrope 175

Hive Crone 155
Hive Crone 155

Toxicrene 160
Toxicrene 160
Carnifex Brood
• Carnifex: twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms; twin-linked devourer with brainleech worms 150

If you have the items a Fortification with a Comm relay might do real nice. A source of Shrouding would likely also be a very good use of points.
Tyrannocyte 75
Tyrannocyte 75
Tyrannocyte 75
Tyrannocyte 75

1,765 points

Just to be clear, the Zoanthropes, Toxicrenes, and Dakkafex all go in pods. This leaves me with 85 points. I'd consider adding a Malanthrope, but I wouldn't be able to place it in a pod so it would be stuck in the backfield. Where would you allocate those points?

With four pods thats a large chunk of your army in reserves, so some way to reroll reserves would be good, like a comms relay. Not sure on the exact points here (I don't play nids), but maybe drop a mucloid, take some rippers and an Aegis line(rippers hide here) with a comms relay to sure up those reserve rolls and the rippers could try for backfield objectives as the rest of your army is quite up in the opponents face (4 flyers and 4 pods)

- If you want to use the pods then you need that reroll reserves with comm relay. You also need all/as much of them to drop or fly close the second turn, to get that "right in their face alpha strike" thing going on.

- I really want those zoanthropes to work but the will be disappointing, believe me.

This will happen:
neurothrope uses a lot of warp charge to get his "leech" on (without getting blocked) and this means its much harder for the hive tyrants to get their psychic powers working.
Then the neurothrope will miss(witchfire power),
or the enemy unit just makes his 3d6-leadership test,
or the will do a few wounds IF the unit doesn't have an inv.save,
and then you still need a few more dice to get those warp lance/blast working for sure(no powers for you hive tyrants!),
and then you still need to do sum damage with them,
and then the will die because they're only Toughness 4,

Yes, the will sumtimes kill a wraithknight in one blow, but most times it will go as above.

- If you're going for two Crones than your better off with the "flyers formation" and go all the way.

- Why would you pick Toxicrene if you can pick a dakkafex instead?

For example, my current list:

Winged hive, devourers, thorax
Winged hive, devourers, thorax
Winged hive, devourers, thorax (allies)

20 guants
20 guants

1x Mucolite spore bomb
1x Mucolite spore bomb
1x Mucolite spore bomb
1x Mucolite spore bomb
1x Mucolite spore bomb(allies)
1x Mucolite spore bomb(allies)

1 venomthrope

tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite
tyrannocite

Mawloc
Dakkafex
Dakkafex

Bastion + comm

1850 points (no apocalypse allowed for me, and I it might change with the new formations coming up...)

no doubt Dakka fexes are good but toxicrene still have their thing, in a pod they can really be annoying so I feel his list is good actually, I might replace the Zoan brood for a Hive Guard brood but thats just me. Zoan could still do good, I feel that you might be selling them short shogun. I would agree with a comm relay tho

The Neurothrope power works like Psychic Shriek so goes off regardless of a roll to hit. The Neurothrope and Zoans is a good unit personally I believe you need to go big or go home with them though. As Shogun says they chew through Warp Charge so you need to get maximum benefit. A unit of 5 has a decent chance of taking most if not all of a Knights Hull Points. Often it is best to pick on a low leadership unit when trying to power Warp Blast. And remember all shots/powers can be resolved through a single Zoanthrope so make sure most are ducked behind something.

Toxicrenes are OK though I'd just add more Dakkafexes. Also Tyrannocytes without weapon upgrades are just very expensive drop pods. But with Venom Cannons they can deal good damage for just 100 points. Whilst 5 Barbed Stranglers can rip through hordes.

As others have said get a Fortification with Comms Relay if you want to go Spod heavy. I feel the Crones are the place you can drop points in this list.

That whole "doesn't need to hit" is a big argument bro, some people feel that the fact that its not a regular shot means that the power still goes off regardless of hitting or not (like flingitnow) other feel that since the rulebook says you need to roll to hit(being a psykic shot) it means that failing to means the power fail (like myself). My advise is ask your gaming group and figure out how you want to deal with this for any scenario where a psykic shot that doesnt have a regular str and ap value might come up.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
no doubt Dakka fexes are good but toxicrene still have their thing, in a pod they can really be annoying so I feel his list is good actually, I might replace the Zoan brood for a Hive Guard brood but thats just me. Zoan could still do good, I feel that you might be selling them short shogun. I would agree with a comm relay tho

I dont like the Toxicrene 4+ save and it cannot compete with the Carnifex shooting output when it stumbles out of the spore pod. Toxicrene has a big toxic blast but with all those spore pod deathspitters you dont need more anti-infantry weapons. Two carnifexes can also take down a wounded imperialknight with their HOW attacks and their Strenght 9 can really screw up vehicles in close combat.

Tyranid drop army needs to control the enemies movement and cannot afford to let the fast enemy units escape. A carnifex can shoot an escaping wave serpent in the but, but those Toxicrene really need to get in close combat to do damage.

If you use the "Leech" hits automatically rule, then the zoans are a little bit better. But you will see that most times the will not urn their points back and die to fast after the drop.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
That whole "doesn't need to hit" is a big argument bro, some people feel that the fact that its not a regular shot means that the power still goes off regardless of hitting or not (like flingitnow) other feel that since the rulebook says you need to roll to hit(being a psykic shot) it means that failing to means the power fail (like myself). My advise is ask your gaming group and figure out how you want to deal with this for any scenario where a psykic shot that doesnt have a regular str and ap value might come up.

Well referring to it as a shot isn't correct. How many dice do you roll to hit? Where do you find this information?

Then what Strength and Ap do you resolve those hits at? Where do you that information?

RaW the power works regardless of the unresolvable to hit roll. I don't get why people take 1 largely contextual line and treat it as the most powerful rule in the book that must be obeyed even if you have to make rules up to make it do so. Yet for instance if I cast Enfeeble on a vehicle I have to apply a -1T modifier but I am yet to find a person that claims you set the Vehicles toughness to 1 to resolve that modifier, literally everyone agrees when you have an unresolvable action due to missing profile you skip that action in every single incidence except for rolling to hit on Witchfires without a profile. Another example is Psychic Shriek against a vehicle do you suddenly set the Vehicles Ld to 1 so you can resolve the 3d6-ld roll? Then set it's wounds to 1 to resolve the wounds from that roll? Because if you're not doing that but are rolling 1 dice to hit for Psychic Shriek then you are being a Hypocrite. So sure make the Neurothrope roll to hit and make him the best unit in the game as I autokill a Knight with him if I hit and generate 3d6-1 Warp Charge too. So if I'm using a Neurothrope I'm more than happy to use those rules.

Or you know we could not make up numbers and leave unresolvable actions alone and play by the actual rules and resolve the power regardless of the to hit roll.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:
That whole "doesn't need to hit" is a big argument bro, some people feel that the fact that its not a regular shot means that the power still goes off regardless of hitting or not (like flingitnow) other feel that since the rulebook says you need to roll to hit(being a psykic shot) it means that failing to means the power fail (like myself). My advise is ask your gaming group and figure out how you want to deal with this for any scenario where a psykic shot that doesnt have a regular str and ap value might come up.

Well referring to it as a shot isn't correct. How many dice do you roll to hit? Where do you find this information?

Then what Strength and Ap do you resolve those hits at? Where do you that information?

RaW the power works regardless of the unresolvable to hit roll. I don't get why people take 1 largely contextual line and treat it as the most powerful rule in the book that must be obeyed even if you have to make rules up to make it do so. Yet for instance if I cast Enfeeble on a vehicle I have to apply a -1T modifier but I am yet to find a person that claims you set the Vehicles toughness to 1 to resolve that modifier, literally everyone agrees when you have an unresolvable action due to missing profile you skip that action in every single incidence except for rolling to hit on Witchfires without a profile. Another example is Psychic Shriek against a vehicle do you suddenly set the Vehicles Ld to 1 so you can resolve the 3d6-ld roll? Then set it's wounds to 1 to resolve the wounds from that roll? Because if you're not doing that but are rolling 1 dice to hit for Psychic Shriek then you are being a Hypocrite. So sure make the Neurothrope roll to hit and make him the best unit in the game as I autokill a Knight with him if I hit and generate 3d6-1 Warp Charge too. So if I'm using a Neurothrope I'm more than happy to use those rules.

Or you know we could not make up numbers and leave unresolvable actions alone and play by the actual rules and resolve the power regardless of the to hit roll.

Apart from the fact that your post makes no sense to me at all, this post is not about the whole "roll to hit with psychic schriek/leech" discussion. Its been done and farterthanfar ( ) makes a good point. Its a big difference if you use the "roll to hit" or "not roll to hit" argument/rule with the neurothrope "leech" power so makes sure you check this out before you field the unit.

Yeah it does make a big difference if it doesn't roll to hit (i.em playing by RaW & RaI) then it is a strong unit. If it does (i.e. playing by lets set numbers to 1 because reasons) then it is broken beyond repair. If it does roll to hit then spam as many Nuerothropes as you can and laugh.

My question is this then: why force us to roll to hit if it doesnt do anything?
My answer is: because its a shooting attack that does not have regular str value but that still needs to hit to do its thing.

That is RAI, I just came out of a games-workshop right now, I asked all the clerks and all agreed that you need to roll to hit, for the neurothrope power or regular psychic shreak from the telepathy BRB power. Its black on white, you need to hit.

All psyckic shooting attacks require to hit

your argument are flawed mr flingitnow since you are extrapolating and then adding all sorts of different statistics that dont exist (vehicules have 1 W or 1 Ld) these are statistics which you've purely made up. obviously thats not how it works. but rolling to hit doesnt require to make up a statistic, you use the Bs that is already there. one single to hit roll per power, since there is no Str value or ap there is no need to roll for those.

One roll to hit per power? Where is that rule? Does that apply to say Smite? Or is this number of 1 invented by you?

The clear RaI is no roll to hit. Read the actual line about must roll to hit. Notice it is contextual telling you witchfires are like weapons and many have profiles. This text is lifted straight from 6th Ed where you had focussed witchfires which were entirely incompatible with a roll to hit as most Psykers are characters and all characters had precision shots in 6th (giving in effect a second chance to resolve against the chosen target against how the rules tell you to resolve it). The same situation is true in 7th but you don't auto get precision shots on Characters so it is not so jaringly obvious.

So we have to roll to hit but how many dice. Lets consult the profile, oh there isn't one. So how do we proceed?

Do we set the value to 1 for missing profiles or do we not perform the unresolvable action?

If we choose to set values to 1 then we have to do that for all other similar situations or we are being hypocritical. So if I enfeeble an Imperial Knight we must set is T to 1 so we can apply the -1T. If we Psychic Shriek a vehicle we roll to hit. Then we roll 3d6-ld there is no ld so we set to 1, so 3d6-1 wounds are caused the vehicle has no wounds so we set wounds to 1 vehicle dies.

Or we can not roll any dice to hit generating no hits. Lets look at the power. What must we do? We must roll 3d6-ld and apply that many wounds. Cool do we do that only if we hit? Or per hit? No and no. So we just do it once regardless of how many hits were caused. The 3d6-Ld still has a 50% chance to do nothing against Ld10.

In every other incidence in the rule where we have an action to resolve and a missing profile to resolve against we assume the action does nothing. Like if anything does wounds to a vehicle we ignore the wounds, we ignore the -1T from Enfeeble when again cast on a vehicle. So why do we treat this roll to hit differently? Why to we take this contextual rule and feel that we need to invent a whole raft of rules to try to apply that action?

one roll to hit is because there is one power going off, it is NOT a made up number.

funny how you are saying that the Clear Rai is no roll to hit if none of the games workshop clerks saw this, and were all saying its clear that people trying to avoid the roll to hit are just trying to bend rules that havent been given ULTRA precise rules.

its marked you gottta roll to hit, maybe there is no actual mention of how many dices to roll but its just logical that one power will require one hit. maybe you want to argue this but that would be for another thread, this has already gone too far, weve basicly invaded the OP thread about this, im sorry themadlbb, this will stop now.

like previously mentionned your list seems good but a comm realy would be worthwhile, maybe taking out a crone would allow a bastion with comm relay and a malanthrope inside with the few extra points you have lying around

 fartherthanfar wrote:
one roll to hit is because there is one power going off, it is NOT a made up number.

funny how you are saying that the Clear Rai is no roll to hit if none of the games workshop clerks saw this, and were all saying its clear that people trying to avoid the roll to hit are just trying to bend rules that havent been given ULTRA precise rules.

So do you roll 1 dice for Smite?

Go to a different GW store and you can get a different answer. Go to one with clued up staff and you'll get the answer I've given. It's not abput exploiting a hole in imprecisely written rules. The effect has literally nothing tying it to a successful hit. And as pointed out focussed witchfires are the same.

Of course you dont, if it has regular shooting statistics then you use those stats (smite rolls 4 dices to hit), but if it doesnt have regular shooting stats then you roll once to see if the effect takes place or not.

So why do you roll once? Where are you getting the number 1 from?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A page number and paragraph or a quote is fine. Or have you set the stat to 1 due to missing profile?

Using logics: one power, one roll. Unless it specificslly says that you roll more IE assault4.
Fact is your right that there isnt anywhere where it mentions how many dices to roll but it does clearly say that you need to roll to hit since they made it a witchfire. Which is much less compicated to figure out then "it doesnt specifically mention how many rolls to hit so its an unresolvable action".
Being a Nids player I would love to not need to roll to hit, but that would feel like Im trying to find a loophole.

Using same logic: 1 Vehicle 1 Ld, 1 Vehicle 1 Wound unless stated otherwise.

I would love it to roll to hit as a Nid player, a 3+ to kill any vehicle and generate 3d6-1 Warp Charge, but that would feel like Im trying to find a loophole by making up rules.

Also even if you do roll 1 dice to hit. What if you miss? Are you going to then break the rules by not resolving the 3d6-ld wounds on the target unit? If so why are you breaking rules?

I understand I wont convince you, you keep on extrapolating and try to find a different scenario which is completely irrelevant to the actual problem and say "if it doesnt work here then it doesnt work there". You are also applying the wrong logic to said irrelevant scenario. I never claimed to replace all missing info with "1", I claimed the usage of general logic: "Do what seems logical", claiming one wound and one Ld to vehicule is not logical, rolling a single time per withfire to see if the effect resolve (unless spell has specific rule requiring to roll more then once, ex: assault 4 Smite) is logical though.
This is how I see it. Yes it requires a form of "making up rules" since the rules aren't specific enough but this seems like the most logical conclusion. Perhaps your logic says otherwise mr flingitnow, I certainly would prefer playing the way you do, I just don't feel its RAI, based off of everything I mentionned before

While I agree that Spirit Leech (Neurothrope) and Psychic Overload (Maleceptor) operate in the similar manner to Psychic Shriek (The Rules: Telepathy Discipline).

All three are specified as "Witchfire" powers of one form. There are exceptions listed (Blast and Template) which is pretty clear that a 'To Hit' roll is required.

The Ld test essentially functions as the "To Wound" roll against the target unit, and any Wounds inflicted can be allocated with appropriate saves taken (mostly Inv. and FNP only).

The Maleceptor can affect vehicles: "Vehicles are treated as having a Leadership of 10."

The Neurothrope does not affect vehicles: "Spirit Leech is a witchfire power that targets a non-vehicle enemy unit within 18"."

This means that Psychic Shriek also needs a 'To Hit' roll be successful. The statistical probability of success may not be desirable for those interested in the numbers, but that doesn't mean the power is horrible. The dice work for you, or they don't.

As already mentioned by others, the shooting attack uses a Ld value rather than a Str value, which means it affects units differently. Use it against hordes with low Ld and/or MCs with high T when you lack the big guns or poison. For those using Psychic Shriek without rolling 'To Hit', perhaps that's why it's so popular---it's too good to be true.

The 3d6-ld roll is NOT a to wound roll nor is it in anyway linked in the rules to a hit. With out a roll to hit it has little over a 50% chance of doing anything to an Ld8-9 unit (the most common Ld values for units) a flat 50% after successfully being manifested against Ld10. That is far from being to good to be true. Psychic Shriek works like a focussed witchfire in essence and its effect is not tied to a hit in anyway just like for any Focussed Witchfire. The easiest way to think about it is as a shooting attack with zero shots that has an additional effect on any unit targeted. Rolling 1 dice to hit is literally making up rules, not resolving the effect after failing to hit with that made up number of dice is then breaking the rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The 3d6-ld roll is NOT a to wound roll nor is it in anyway linked in the rules to a hit. With out a roll to hit it has little over a 50% chance of doing anything to an Ld8-9 unit (the most common Ld values for units) a flat 50% after successfully being manifested against Ld10. That is far from being to good to be true. Psychic Shriek works like a focussed witchfire in essence and its effect is not tied to a hit in anyway just like for any Focussed Witchfire. The easiest way to think about it is as a shooting attack with zero shots that has an additional effect on any unit targeted. Rolling 1 dice to hit is literally making up rules, not resolving the effect after failing to hit with that made up number of dice is then breaking the rules.

You should take this discussion to YMDC. As it is , you are implementing one of 2 house ruled ways of playing out Psychic Shriek. The alternate house rule way of playing it is to roll to hit then resolve the effect on a successful hit. Feel free to house rule it however which way you like. If you want to claim RAW then you need to take the discussion to YMDC where it's appropriate to discuss such matters. This thread is simply not the thread for a RAW debate.

Given that you frequently conceded in that thread Col why start another one? We got concensus we both know the RaW and we both know that your interpretation is a Houserule. I'm not arguing RaW here just explaining it as there is no argument on the RaW.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Given that you frequently conceded in that thread Col why start another one? We got concensus we both know the RaW and we both know that your interpretation is a Houserule. I'm not arguing RaW here just explaining it as there is no argument on the RaW.

You mean this thread?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/621079.page

In that thread I never once conceded. Instead, you were frequently reprimanded by the Dakka admins for attempting to put words into other peoples mouths. The evidence of that disruptive behavior and other disruptive antics on your part is all right there in that thread and once again you are making a similar disruptive attempt in this very thread. You can obtusely assert you have a RAW argument all you want, but anyone who bothers to research the issue or research your post history will come to the same conclusion, that there is nothing but an obtuse assertion on your part to backup that claim.

Anyway, you are welcome to open a thread in YMDC where it's appropriate to discuss RAW matters. I strongly suggest though that if you want to make a meaningful contribution to such a new debate that you refrain from the disruptive, juvenile argument tactics that we have witnessed from you in past threads on the issue and focus instead on proving your RAW argument with reason and logic and of course rules.

Anyone reading that thread with a good grasp of English and Logic can see the RaW and can see you conceded repeatedly. We both know you did so why lie about it now? As always you aren't interested in arguing the rules but disrupting the conversation. That thread is all the evidence I need.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Anyone reading that thread with a good grasp of English and Logic can see the RaW and can see you conceded repeatedly. We both know you did so why lie about it now? As always you aren't interested in arguing the rules but disrupting the conversation. That thread is all the evidence I need.

Just an FYI. You have been reported for making a baseless accusation of lying against me and for attempting to put words into my mouth (of concession).

I suggest once again you refrain from such disruptive antics and instead focus on making reasoned and well-supported arguments.

Read the thread they are all there. Your concession is once again accepted.

This is off topic for the 40k army lists board. Any further posts regarding this RAW disagreement will result in warnings and/or suspensions - you have all had your say, and it is time to move on.

If you have any questions, please PM me.

Now, let's return to the topic of this thread:

themadlbb wrote:
Just to be clear, the Zoanthropes, Toxicrenes, and Dakkafex all go in pods. This leaves me with 85 points. I'd consider adding a Malanthrope, but I wouldn't be able to place it in a pod so it would be stuck in the backfield. Where would you allocate those points?

Finaly, back to the thread, i would either get gun upgrades on the tyranocite or once again try to find extra points for a comm relay