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SO! Hello there everyone, this is a thread we have wanted to start for a while now. We have been doing a podcast for a bit now, and have long wanted to get the community more involved with what we talk about, in essence bring you guys into the podcast which you can listen to on Itunes search "Roll to Seize" or at this address: http://www.partialarc.com/roll-to-seize

Here is the basic "jist" of what we are looking for:

-this thread is a game essentially, so most importantly keep it civil and have fun!
-there are 2 steps to this, first is to build a good list of all of the (widely considered) underused/ unusable/ terrible/ underrated/ fluffy units in the game, in each army. The next step is to see if I can make a themed list around them that may actually make them work... or at least make them silly and amusing, and possibly turn some heads.

And thats it! I'll start by making a list of the units/ models, from the armies I know fairly well, that I think that fit the above criteria. Then you guys can tell me which one or ones you would like me to feature in our next podcast! Ill also place the list here. So please feel free to add to the pot, cause I only know sooo many armies...I need your help! As well, feel free to discuss the validity of any of the units mentioned here!

I'll re-clarify since there has been some confusion:
First the point is to get a generally good assembly in each faction (and please when you list suggestions, tell em what part of the codex they lie, fast attack, etc. I know a bunch but not everything in every army....yet!), then after that is complete, I will put a vote for which faction to address. Then after that, which unit/ units or idea to theme around in that faction. Ill then post a rough cut list for all of you to rip to shreds, and the final list will be chosen from the comments and used in the podcast.

It is important to note that the point is for the list to be usable/ winable, but not sacrifice the flavor of the army. I will also try to avoid the "shoe-in" units that any competitive army would take, we don't want to overshadow our theme with commonly used builds.

One last thing, it is important to keep in mind that the units chosen are ones that fit the parameters in the current meta.

Oh and per request, the points we are shooting for is 1850[/u]

List of forgettables:
Space Marines:
-HQ: Chaplain, MotF, Helbrecht, Shrike, Grimaldus, Sicarius, Non-bike Captain, GK Brother Captain, GK Champion, GK techmarine
-Troops: Razorbacks (can also go in FA and HS), GK strikers, GK transports
-Elites: Tactical Terminators, Non Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Venerable dread upgrade, Assault Centurions, Vanguard Veterans, GK dreadnought
-Fast Attack: Scout bikers, Bikers (non-troops), attack bike, Assault Marines, DA Nephilim, DA Talon, GK stormraven
-Heavy Support: Whirlwind, Chronus, hunter, GK Purgation Squad, GK landraiders



Astra Militarum(and Tempestus):
-HQ: Straken, Kell, Nork Deddog, Lord Commissar
-Troops: HWS, SWS,
-Elites:Ogryns, Wyrdvane Psyker
-Fast Attack: Rough Riders, Hellhounds, Armoured Sentinels
-Heavy Support: Deathstrike Missile


Eldar:
-HQ: Pretty much all Phoenix Lords, Prince Yriel, Illadin (sniper guy)
-Troops: Assault Guardians, Guardians without wave serpents
-Elites: Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees
-Fast Attack: Vipers, Swooping Hawks,
-Heavy Support: Vauls Weapons Platforms, Wraithlords, Falcons


Dark Eldar:
-HQ: Lelith, courts
-Troops: Wyches
-Elites: Trueborn, Bloodbrides, wracks(non formation), mandrakes
-Fast Attack: Beasts
-Heavy Support: Chronos, talos (non formation),


Tyranids:
-HQ: Swarmlord, Old one eye, tervigon (sometimes used as troops), prime, deathleaper (non formation)
-Troops: warriors, genestealers, hormogaunts
-Elites: pyrovores, haruspex, lictors,
-Fast Attack: sky slashers, flying warriors, harpies (non formation), spore squads,
-Heavy Support: Trygon, Trygon Prime


Necrons:
-HQ:
-Troops: Tesla immortals
-Elites: Praetorians, triarch stalkers, deathmarks
-Fast Attack: tomb blades
-Heavy Support: C'tan, monoliths, annihilation barges


Orks:
-HQ:Mad Doc Grotsnik
-Troops:
-Elites: Kommandos, burna boys
-Fast Attack: Deff Koptas, buggies, ork flyers
-Heavy Support: Flash Gitz, Killa Kanz, Deff Dread, lootaz
-LOW: Gazzy


Tau:
-HQ: Aun'va, darkstrider, aun'shi
-Troops: fire warriors, devilfish
-Elites: stealth suits
-Fast Attack: vespid, pathfinders(offensive), either flyer, gun drone squadrons, shield drone squadrons
-Heavy Support: sniper drones, hammerheads


Chaos Demons:
-HQ: Blue Scribes, Changeling, Masque, Karanak
-Troops: Bloodletters
-Elites: Bloodcrushers
-Fast Attack: Furies
-Heavy Support: Burning chariot.


Chaos Space Marines:
-HQ: Lucius, Dark Apostle, Warpsmith
-Troops:Thousand Sons, Khorne Berserkers
-Elites: Thousand Sons, Khorne Berserkers, Plauge Marines, Noise Marines, Mutilators, Possessed, Chaos terminators
-Fast Attack: warp talons
-Heavy Support: Defiler


Sisters of Battle:
-HQ: Cannoness Generica
-Troops:
-Elites: Sisters Repentia
-Fast Attack:
-Heavy Support: The Penitent Engine

I approve of using unconventional units!

Sisters of Battle:

-HQ: Cannoness Generica goes here. She's not terrible, but the other options are so much better

-Troops: Hahahahaha! You're kidding, right? We only have 1 option. Battle Sisters, Battle Sisters and more Battle Sisters.

-Elites: Sisters Repentia... an all-assault unit in a game where Assault just isnt that viable... and for this slot, they compete with Celestians which, when fully-kitted, are meaty-beaty. Also, SR cannot be taken in numbers to survive having their DT blown up and then the subsequent shooting phase on the 3 left.

-Fast Attack: We only have 2 units in this slot, and both of them are very good for the role they fill.

-Heavy Support: The Penitent Engine. It shares a slot with the Exorcist and with the Retributor Squads... which means this PoS loses. Again, dedicated close-range/melee unit, but not an MC (it's a Walker with Rhino armor). Only if you have, like, a dozen of these things, and a whole lot of other crap for the opponent to shoot at, is it worth fielding these (cause then some might actually make it to melee).

Added them to the lot!

Couple more factions ya forgot.

Assassins

Inquisition

Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels are they under the SM umbrella?

Imperial Knights

Militarum Tempestus

Well, I didn't add the ones specifically not complained about like assassins inquisition and knights, since they are more imperial supplements than anything else. I grouped all the space marines into one, just cause it saves on space.

Tempestus I consider part of Imperial Guard, once again to save space

An army if just Legion of the Damned will automatically lose any game, because they can only enter play on turn 2.

That's about the worst single faction army in the game.

SJ

For DA there is the nephilim and the dark talon for fast attack. They're just too overpriced for what they can do

Partial Arc LLC. wrote:


List of forgettables:
Space Marines:
-HQ: Chaplain, MotF, Helbrecht, Shrike, Grimaldus, Sicarius
-Troops: Razorbacks (can also go in FA and HS)
-Elites: Tactical Terminators, Non Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Venerable dread upgrade, Assault Centurions, Vanguard Veterans
-Fast Attack: Scout bikers, Bikers (non-troops), attack bike, Assault Marines
-Heavy Support: Whirlwind, Chronus


Chaos Demons:
-HQ: Blue Scribes, Changeling, Masque
-Troops: Bloodletters
-Elites: Bloodcrushers
-Fast Attack: Furies
-Heavy Support: Arguably the Burning chariot, though it's been fixed now. I think it's probably pretty good, but it's competing against the soul grinder.


Chaos Space Marines:
-HQ: Lucius, Fabulous Bill, Dark Apostle, Warpsmith
-Troops:Thousand Sons, Khorne Berserkers
-Elites: Thousand Sons, Khorne Berserkers, Plauge Marines, Noise Marines, Mutilators, Possessed
-Fast Attack: warp talons
-Heavy Support: Defiler


Sisters of Battle:
-HQ: Cannoness Generica
-Troops:
-Elites: Sisters Repentia, Celestians
-Fast Attack:
-Heavy Support: The Penitent Engine

Drasius wrote:


Chaos Space Marines:
-HQ: Fabulous Bill

Fabius Bile can net you a bunch of s5/6 space marines. Pair it with infiltration and you're good to go

Anywayz, it's a lot of work to make some of all the listed stuff worth it and each of them requires a separate article. Search for Vespids/Flayed ones/Nobs in the tactical thread. But generally, it's all doable.

Dude....you gotta give us a points value!

Gonna second Drasius on a few.

Space Marines:
-HQ: Non-bike Captain(at least the bike one opens up SM bikers as troops, otherwise Librarian is just better due to fewer points), Chaplain (too expensive)
-Troops: Razorback (Why does it cost a fair amount more while having fewer slots)
-Elites: Tactical Terminators(Too much AV2 available, too expensive), Dreadnoughts(just not worth the slot), Vanguard Veterans (WAY too expensive for what they do. Terminators do their job better for better P/M)
-Fast Attack: Attack bike, Assault Marines(Jump infantry kinda suck, much better uses for this slot exist), Bikes (at least the Scout Bikes can take a locator beacon and be useful)
-Heavy Support: Whirlwind, Stalker(why no Interceptor?), Hunter(seriously, interceptor would make this thing worth it), Land Raider Redeemer(give it split-fire and it becomes worth the fewer seats)

EDIT: Once I have a points value I can make a list. I guess I will have to use 5-man tactical squads in the Razorbacks.

Imperial Guard:

HQ:
Straken (with the CCS, he costs as much as a Dreadknight, and is a melee character in a unit of 4 guardsmen.)
Kell (Waaaaaaaay too expensive for what he brings. Also, can only be taken in a unit that's already bought a different overpriced SC.)
Nork Deddog (Oh look, more attempts to make the CCS into a melee beast. In fairness, this is probably pretty close to what an Ogryn should be. Unfortunately, GW thinks it needs to cost twice as much as an Ogryn to justify that.)
Lord Commissar (Suffers badly from all IG wargear being costing about twice as much as it should, and the nerfs to his Aura means he doesn't really offer much over a regular Commissar or Priest. Still better than the above though...)

Elites:
Ogryns (Suck at life)
Wyrdvane Psyker (Is there a reason you wouldn't just use a Primaris Psyker? Who is cheaper, can hide in a squad and has a Force Weapon. Also, because GW can't write rules, there's now no benefit whatsoever to having a larger unit of them.)

Troops:
HWSs (Hello, we're a priority target with T3, a 5+ save and no ablative wounds. It would be really great if you didn't shoot us. Also, we still cost 50% more than we should for no adequately-explored reason.)
SWSs (Not quite as bad as the above, but BS3 and the inability to take a dedicated transport does raise the question of why you don't just use veterans.)
Heavy Bolters (On HWTs or HWSs - they're awful either way, so take your pick.)

FA:
Rough Riders (Where did our AP2 lances go? Why can't we assault after outflanking any more? Why do we cost twice as much as a guardsman, but are no more survivable? Why do we always seem to draw 'shelf duty'?)
Hellhounds (Why do we cost as much as a Leman Russ?)
Armoured Sentinels (Remember when we wouldn't just melt in combat to a couple of Krak Grenades? Good times.)

HS:
Deathstrike Missile (At some point during this game, I might do something.)

Ain't the intention of the thread to "Making fluffy/ underrated units work" and not "Say how useless they are".

 koooaei wrote:
Ain't the intention of the thread to "Making fluffy/ underrated units work" and not "Say how useless they are".

The OP first asked us for a list of the underused/ unusable/ terrible/ underrated units in each army.

I thought it would be useful to provide a brief explanation of why I'd put a given unit on the list. If such explanations are of no value to him, then he need only ignore the bracketed sections of my post.

Necrons:

Flayed Ones are the classic, nuff said on these guys. They're junk like every other medium armored InfilFlankStrike melee unit. Their claws having no properties at all and zero special abilities makes em icing on the cake. Imotekh is the only prayer they have of making their points.

Lych Guard actually don't suck too much but they're never used. They are extremely costly for what they do, but the best way to bring them is with an attached HQ and a Veiltek to leap across the board. Only usable in big games.

Praetorians.....let's just say I'm absolutely amazed people complain about flayed ones when these exist. It's a dedicated forty point melee unit...with TWO attacks on the charge. Two. And a single piddly shot. Like, if their role is they wanna jump in and frag 2+ armor, they should have AP2 in melee and, oh I dunno maybe an invuln so they don't just universally die to TEQ? If you can make a list for them, power to ya.

Tomb Blades: possibly the most blatant case of GW going "our players already have one optional unit-we'd better make it super weak and release a new thing that's EXACTLY the same so people have to buy stuff". Unfortunately that fell flat because these guys are A) ugly as sin and B) a "meh" unit choice in a FOC slot that contains scarabs and wraiths. Not terrible, there's just oodles of better options

Destroyers: See above, but the unit they Nerfed down to replace with the new one. They're dead, Jim.

Orikan the Diviner: good news everyone we heard you Necrons wanted best stick HQs so we have you one! Except he stinks in combat, isn't much better even in his pseudo-MC form and lacks the options that make Necron HQs good (chariot, Warscythes, Scarabs)

Boris The Spider: the special Cryptek dude. If GW has sold a single copy of him color me surprised. Ditto as above, no chariot , no scarabs, see ya.

Trayzn the Trollfinite: never in the history of 40k has there been a rule that sounded so awesome on paper but was so worthless in practice. Hmmmmmm let's see...you put him with...Canoptek wraiths and a veiltek, and teleport into the center of an enemy ork or Nid army...then he might work. He is funny though especially as the Warlord.

Ctan Shard: Monstrous Creep at it's finest. THE ALMIGHTY GOD OF THE STARS AND THE COSMOS who comes up to the knee of a wraithknight and dies like a bitch in cc to it. He can hang out with the Avatar of Khaine and whine about kids these days and marneus Calgar.

 koooaei wrote:

Drasius wrote:


Chaos Space Marines:
-HQ: Fabulous Bill

Fabius Bile can net you a bunch of s5/6 space marines. Pair it with infiltration and you're good to go

Anywayz, it's a lot of work to make some of all the listed stuff worth it and each of them requires a separate article. Search for Vespids/Flayed ones/Nobs in the tactical thread. But generally, it's all doable.

Meaning you either need to get lucky with your warlord roll or take Huron/Ahriman. So you're either going for a 30% chance to get infiltrate as your trait randomly or you're paying 165/230 points for that benefit and your 2nd HQ slot. And now you also can't chargee if you get 1st turn. Yeah, that's not what we call workable.

Yes, if you build a list around some of those units, you can make them passable. Hell, I run thousand sons as my main army 'cause I think they're cool.

Others however, will remain terrible regardless, see Lucius the eternally terrible for a great example; A character whose whole schtick is being in challenges yet sucks arse at it since he didn't bring a 2+ weapon and only has Str 4 and a 5++. On average, it's about 50/50 that a tactical terminator will wreck his face in melee. Hell, a riptide will pwn his ass in melee, a riptide! And he costs as much as Huron, who is a psuedo psycher, gets arguably the best warlord trait, gets armourbane and +2 str on his claw in addition to carrying a power axe just in case and has a 4++ to boot.

This was meant as a list of underpowered/poor choices in each codex, that's what you got. If you wanted to argue completely un-usable units, well, that is a much shorter list with probably only 2 or 3 units per codex.

Daemons: I feel like I rarely see Karanak except when I field him.

Drasius wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Drasius wrote:


Chaos Space Marines:
-HQ: Fabulous Bill

Fabius Bile can net you a bunch of s5/6 space marines. Pair it with infiltration and you're good to go

Anywayz, it's a lot of work to make some of all the listed stuff worth it and each of them requires a separate article. Search for Vespids/Flayed ones/Nobs in the tactical thread. But generally, it's all doable.

Meaning you either need to get lucky with your warlord roll or take Huron/Ahriman. So you're either going for a 30% chance to get infiltrate as your trait randomly or you're paying 165/230 points for that benefit and your 2nd HQ slot. And now you also can't chargee if you get 1st turn. Yeah, that's not what we call workable.

It IS workable when you build an army around infiltrate. And that's basically how you make most of the units work. They should fit the theme. I've seen such lists doing great - especially vs gunlines or other mellee units. Infiltrate gives you ability to overwhelm a single chosen flank. That's a huge tactical advantage and you pay for it accordingly.

Alright Ill add the things to the list, and clarify what I am looking for here and in the OP: First the point is to get a generally good assembly in each faction, then after that is complete, I will put a vote for which faction to address. Then after that, which unit/ units or idea to theme around in that faction. Ill then post a rough cut list for all of you to rip to shreds, and the final list will be chosen and added to the podcast.

It is important to note that the point is for the list to be usable/ winable, but not sacrifice the flavor of the army. I will also try to avoid the "shoe-in" units that any competitive army would take, we don't want to overshadow our theme with commonly used builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

lustigjh wrote:
Daemons: I feel like I rarely see Karanak except when I field him.

what section is he in?

Karanak is an HQ, specifically heralds of khorne

Master of the forge can be good, take someinquisition allies and give him conversion beamer,roll on divination for perfect timing to see a S10 AP1 blast with ignores cover

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Master of the forge can be good, take someinquisition allies and give him conversion beamer,roll on divination for perfect timing to see a S10 AP1 blast with ignores cover

Would you say you see it often, or often enough? The list is for uncommon usage as well as arguably bad units

Voting is up! Tell us what race you would like us to feature in our next episode!

Them poor, misbegotten, ignored and downright awful Rough Riders. But screw all of that, 'cause they are dashing cavaliers!

 ChazSexington wrote:
Them poor, misbegotten, ignored and downright awful Rough Riders. But screw all of that, 'cause they are dashing cavaliers!

Min squad of 5 with a melta bomb. Cheap, easy to hide, good charge range. Can threaten vehicles. Can get a wound off a wraithknight on the charge statistically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Partial Arc LLC. wrote:
Voting is up! Tell us what race you would like us to feature in our next episode!

Not even listing Codex: DreadGrey Knights?

Orkz
HQ- Bad'ruk, Zag'struk
Troop- Grots
Elite- Nobz, Burna boyz
FA- Burna Bomma , Dakkajet might be on here since new dex.
HS- Deff Dread, Flash gitz, bubble chukka

 Rismonite wrote:
Orkz

Zaggy could be used within stormboyz formation for a squad containing 3 stormboyz squads. 3 nobz in there are nice. 1 d6 for deepstrike and potential for 2d6 run is nice too. It's not as amazing as kommandoe formation but it works from time to time.

Grots - i use them in every game and they prove useful. And even hilariously useful sometimes http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/615982.page

Nobz - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/622940.page

Burnas - not bad in small units in a truck. Actually, quite handy for when you face deepstrikers or lots of infantry. And can pack a cheaper killsaw mek.

Deff dreadz - great in a dredd mob.

Flash Gitz - Small units in a truck or large units in a wagon are actually not that bad. They're definitely more shooty than shootaboyz. And they're wonderful if the enemy's coming for you. Besides, they're still nobz and have a ton of s5 attacks on the charge. In larger games you can go for a formation with Badrukk and split them in 2 squads. It's not bad within blitz brigade formation when you make a scout move and can stay still for the first turn and get that nice bs3.

Bubble chukka ain't amazing but treat it just like a large blast which's doing fine vs an average infantry foe most of the time. It's a bit overpriced and should be the cost of a ZZAP gun, i think, but it's not bad. Last game i've finished off Abaddon with a Baublechukka shot...yep, it's anecdotal evidence but anywayz, ork artillery is so darn cheap that even if you don't shoot it at all, it pays off by simply being there. Run forward and distract the foe if you got nothing to shoot at. t7 3+ is durable as hell for so cheap.

 koooaei wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Them poor, misbegotten, ignored and downright awful Rough Riders. But screw all of that, 'cause they are dashing cavaliers!

Min squad of 5 with a melta bomb. Cheap, easy to hide, good charge range. Can threaten vehicles. Can get a wound off a wraithknight on the charge statistically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Partial Arc LLC. wrote:
Voting is up! Tell us what race you would like us to feature in our next episode!

Not even listing Codex: DreadGrey Knights?

I lumped all of space marines into a single box, if you have units in mind for grey knights, I will place it in the space marines box with a monicker indicating grey knights

Heavy Support: Purgation Squad
HQ: Brotherhood Champion

Those are the ones no one really takes.