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Hey all!
So I finally bought the "WARMACHINE Two Player Battle Box", I always had a thing for the "Templar" and Russians are crazy fun people so it works for me.
I have got through about half the manual and it is making too much sense right now, I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I am sure this may have come up before so any links around this topic would be appreciated.

So, knowing what I have as a starter, what would be some suggestions for expanding these two factions bit by bit?

Are there any extra templates / gear you would suggest getting to help with the game?

So played: Warhammer 40k, Battletech, X-wing, Federation Commander and Full Thrust for tabletop games just as an idea of background.

With games like Malifaux and Infinity hitting the tabletop it is making me question the route I am going.

For those who have tried some of what I had and the new what are your suggestions?

Thanks!

<edit> This is not a "rage quit" post for 40k, we are just separated so we can date others.

Get a few games in with the starter so that you can get a feel for the game, that way you can have a much better understanding of how you wan't to progress with your next buys.

The only "must buys" that you really need for this game are basically the support units of which Menoth has a fair number: Choir of Menoth, Vassal of Menoth, Covenant of Menoth.

For Khador it will really depend on the direction that you wan't to take them and what Warcasters you'll wan't to try... They don't have that many support units since their warjacks are heavily dependant on their warcaster and their units are pretty much self-sufficient...

Play a few games with what you got. Once you know the game and your play style, start building a force around the way you want to play or the army you think would be cool. Some units work much better with certain other units and playstyles.
At first try to have a balanced force that has a lot of versatility, then once you get a hang of your meta, adapt from there. I also came in from decades of 40k and this is what 40k should have been, there are no bad units, just ones that work well in different situations.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Play a few games with what you got. Once you know the game and your play style, start building a force around the way you want to play or the army you think would be cool.

Reasonable enough.

Some units work much better with certain other units and playstyles.
At first try to have a balanced force that has a lot of versatility, then once you get a hang of your meta, adapt from there.

In most other games than 40k I tend to go for balance first so that again is good to hear.

I also came in from decades of 40k and this is what 40k should have been, there are no bad units, just ones that work well in different situations.

"No bad units" is something I am not used to hearing... it is rather a happy thing.
Will look at things harder, start with stats and strategy and than load-up on the fluff as I go.
At least the painting of models will be a nice change from the 40k aesthetic.
Good to see you around MWH!

Just to head this off at the pass.

There are almost no bad models. But there are lots of bad combos, and some models are incredibly niche. You can't just toss together stuff and have it work. List building is still important, and learning how to use that list even more so.

Also, Khador is not a warjack faction. Manowars are also a trap. They are a light/medium infantry faction. They usually only take one, very big, warjack.and a bunch of infantry.

Internal synergy is important in this game. Lists need to be built with the rest of the list in mind. Its all about layering support.

Order of activation is also a killer. Mess it up and the perfect plan can be utterly ruined.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Just to head this off at the pass.
There are almost no bad models. But there are lots of bad combos, and some models are incredibly niche. You can't just toss together stuff and have it work. List building is still important, and learning how to use that list even more so.

That is typical in any tactical game. Thanks for the heads-up

Also, Khador is not a warjack faction. Manowars are also a trap. They are a light/medium infantry faction. They usually only take one, very big, warjack.and a bunch of infantry.

Ah, the true Stalin method! more thematic than I thought

Internal synergy is important in this game. Lists need to be built with the rest of the list in mind. Its all about layering support.

Will look into "interdependencies", hope I will not have to make a flow chart.

Order of activation is also a killer. Mess it up and the perfect plan can be utterly ruined.

Check, set priorities or die like a dog.

Pretty much.

The fluff is that Khador lacks the natural resources to make enough Cortexes(jack brains) so they compensate by only making heavily armored war jacks. They have no light war jacks, or arc nodes, in their army for this reason(except for the Old Witch's Scrapjack)

 Grey Templar wrote:
Just to head this off at the pass.

There are almost no bad models. But there are lots of bad combos, and some models are incredibly niche. You can't just toss together stuff and have it work. List building is still important, and learning how to use that list even more so.

Also, Khador is not a warjack faction. Manowars are also a trap. They are a light/medium infantry faction. They usually only take one, very big, warjack.and a bunch of infantry.

Internal synergy is important in this game. Lists need to be built with the rest of the list in mind. Its all about layering support.

Order of activation is also a killer. Mess it up and the perfect plan can be utterly ruined.

This is more detailed of what I was trying to say. Yes, army synergy is HUGE in this game. I play Convergence and they rely more on synergy than most Warmachine armies. Once you find your play style, find the units that compliment it and work your list around that idea.

Caster choice effects how the same army plays in a very dramatic way. For me, simply changing the caster changes how I play the game. That effect might be less with Menoth and Khador, but the theory is still there.

The big thing to pay attention to coming out of 40k particularly is that the warcaster is an infinitely bigger part of the game than commanders in most games. A warcaster can and will dictate your entire playstyle, and units can end up doing completely different things depending on which warcaster you stick them with. Warcasters are also significantly less durable than you might hope for a lynchpin that causes you to lose if they die; don't leave them hanging out in the open if you can possibly avoid it.

As to the factions you've picked up Menoth is all about the list-building game; very little is viable on its own, but when you've got the UAs, the support solos, the warcaster's spell list, and the Choir factored in they can do anything very well. The starter warcaster is very focused on shutting down shenanigans of any sort (Khador's defense-stacking tricks hate his feat, any warcaster who isn't a dedicated assassin or a warjack/warbeast in disguise (and most of those) hate Lamentation, et cetera) so he likes units with good reliable damage output. On top of the battle box the Choir, Exemplar Errants with UA and the Seneschal, and the Covenant are solid choices starting out.

Khador is an unsubtle brute-force sort of faction; generally the trick with them is to figure out if you'd rather play for the attack (where you find all the speed buffs you can find) or the counterattack (where you take cheap/durable/both units, stack defensive buffs on them, and leave them in the way while you get your heavy hitters upfield). The starter warcaster is geared towards locking people down and pounding on them, she mitigates poor-accuracy units and makes high damage output units brutally effective as well as being able to set up a terrifying assassination run; she tends to take the attack approach rather than the counterattack approach, but she doesn't have any non-warjack speed buffs so units that are already reasonably fast are a good pick with her. Picking one of either Iron Fangs or Winter Guard and grabbing the appropriate UAs and support solos (Iron Fang Kovnik for Iron Fangs, Kovnik Joe for Winter Guard) is always a good place to start with Khador, they don't have any models that are as ubiquitous as the Choir in Menoth, but the Spriggan is a solid choice for one-warjack armies.

Postscript: People will tell you factions are focused on one thing or another, but factions here aren't as monolithic and monodimensional as factions in Warhammer. "Khador is not a 'jack faction" means that playing Khador with multiple warjacks is difficult and doesn't come with a lot of options, not that you can never, ever under any circumstances include more than one warjack in your list. It's probably not best to start out trying to play 'jack-heavy Khador but that doesn't make it impossible or ineffectual.

My brother and I have just started embarking into Warmahordes from a similar position and we are loving it.

What's helped me a lot has been watching/listening to all kinds of different youtube videos, from basic how to plays and faction breakdowns to actual battle reports. True some are better than others but you can develop a better sense for the game even while you're painting. The official forums are well worth a lurk as well. For the 2 player box we're thinking of adding Widowmakers and a Wardog for Khador and a Choir and Hierophant for Menoth, as each add a new element at not that great a cash outlay. Beyond that we're looking at expanding into different factions and into Hordes as well, until we have a good mix of 25pts forces.

I also find the theme lists in the army books useful as a starter guide to see what kind of units go with each caster, more or less. From my reading it's all about making connections and visualising how things can stack up and work together, which is great fun. I'm actually enjoying list building again as every unit means something to the whole. The background is worth getting into a bit as well, it feels a lot more personal and intimate than 40k, on account of its size and the fact that the game is character driven in a way that 40k isn't, with the feats and different spells etc.

So far I don't think factions 'are' one thing or another, a lot depends on the caster and how you tailor your list to suit them, as well as the usual personal preference and whether you want a themed list or not. There seems to be a lot more freedom than in 40k, simply because all units are either viable or can be made so with buffs. I like to think of the lists as a stew, with the right ingredients and seasoning anything is tasty

If you want to add something to your Menoth, add a choir. You basically cannot go wrong with that, about 90% of Menoth lists use a Choir, at least.
Else, maybe try to add a unit for one of the factions to get an idea of how units works and if you want to go more unit-heavy or jack-heavy.

 warspawned wrote:
My brother and I have just started embarking into Warmahordes from a similar position and we are loving it.

What's helped me a lot has been watching/listening to all kinds of different youtube videos, from basic how to plays and faction breakdowns to actual battle reports. True some are better than others but you can develop a better sense for the game even while you're painting. The official forums are well worth a lurk as well. For the 2 player box we're thinking of adding Widowmakers and a Wardog for Khador and a Choir and Hierophant for Menoth, as each add a new element at not that great a cash outlay. Beyond that we're looking at expanding into different factions and into Hordes as well, until we have a good mix of 25pts forces.

I also find the theme lists in the army books useful as a starter guide to see what kind of units go with each caster, more or less. From my reading it's all about making connections and visualising how things can stack up and work together, which is great fun. I'm actually enjoying list building again as every unit means something to the whole. The background is worth getting into a bit as well, it feels a lot more personal and intimate than 40k, on account of its size and the fact that the game is character driven in a way that 40k isn't, with the feats and different spells etc.

So far I don't think factions 'are' one thing or another, a lot depends on the caster and how you tailor your list to suit them, as well as the usual personal preference and whether you want a themed list or not. There seems to be a lot more freedom than in 40k, simply because all units are either viable or can be made so with buffs. I like to think of the lists as a stew, with the right ingredients and seasoning anything is tasty

Don't use theme lists as a guide for what is good for that caster. Only a few theme lists are good with the caster. They're meant to represent what army the caster was using at a point in the story. They're not necessarily good, many are outright terrible. Like pKreoss's theme force.

I will say this: when someone says that there are 'no bad units,' I don't feel that they're being completely accurate.

Privateer Press is full of humans, and they /do/ make mistakes. There are some units that are so niche that they're not good. Cinerators are probably one of the best examples of this.

The difference, however, is that 'bad/not good' in Warmachine doesn't typically mean 'you are at a huge disadvantage if you use this,' it means 'not optimal.' You'll get more of a feel of this as you play, but I felt people were being a bit too rosy up above. There are several things that will probably collect dust on your shelf if you buy /everything./ It's just that there aren't really that many of them, and even then they're not useless by any stretch.

Except the Houseguard heavy rifle team.

Could be worse. The Rifleteam could be Grotesques.

I've seen Grotesques used with Kallus infantry-heavy lists simply so the infantry don't trip over eachother. Mind you, it's not optimal, but at least it gives you some sort of advantage over legionnaires.

The rifle team is one of the few models/units in the game that feels strictly worse than something else in-faction (there is almost no situation where it is better than a ghost sniper)

 BoardroomHero wrote:
I've seen Grotesques used with Kallus infantry-heavy lists simply so the infantry don't trip over eachother. Mind you, it's not optimal, but at least it gives you some sort of advantage over legionnaires.

The rifle team is one of the few models/units in the game that feels strictly worse than something else in-faction (there is almost no situation where it is better than a ghost sniper)

Pretty much the issue of all light artillery. In fact, all artillery beyond the Commodore and maybe Khadoran Mortars. Though they all do cool things in thematic scenarios.

That may change with the 2015 Steamroller letting you choose your objective with the list. On demand boosted damage rolls is legit.

 BoardroomHero wrote:
Privateer Press is full of humans, and they /do/ make mistakes. There are some units that are so niche that they're not good. Cinerators are probably one of the best examples of this.

How to make sluggers work ? They almost never do stuff when I field them, apart from being bodies to throw at zone/objectives when I have no-one to send.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That may change with the 2015 Steamroller letting you choose your objective with the list. On demand boosted damage rolls is legit.

Oh that would be so cool! My thumper crews!

Yup. The new Beta is legit.

The new army list sheet has a spot to write down that army's objective, out of the 6 choices.

One reduces the cost of 1 non-offensive spell cast by every model by 1(and it has Plasma Nimbus)

Another takes one less die of damage from shooting.

Another has Lash and makes people stand up for free in the maintenance phase.

Another gives free charges.

One gives the artillery boost.

And the last one makes your models not run away and automatically rally.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BoardroomHero wrote:
Privateer Press is full of humans, and they /do/ make mistakes. There are some units that are so niche that they're not good. Cinerators are probably one of the best examples of this.

How to make sluggers work ? They almost never do stuff when I field them, apart from being bodies to throw at zone/objectives when I have no-one to send.

I mean, multi-shot POW13 guns on cheap multi-wound infantry is nothing to sneeze at. I'd take 'em with Gunnbjorn for Snipe (so they can aim as much as possible) and the wall (to mitigate their durability problems), park them behind another unit, and use them in infantry fights as much as possible since they don't have the damage output to wreck most warjacks/warbeasts.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Another takes one less die of damage from shooting.

I do not like that. Is it just the objective though, or also models around it? Seems very powerful if it is also other models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I mean, multi-shot POW13 guns on cheap multi-wound infantry is nothing to sneeze at. I'd take 'em with Gunnbjorn for Snipe (so they can aim as much as possible) and the wall (to mitigate their durability problems), park them behind another unit, and use them in infantry fights as much as possible since they don't have the damage output to wreck most warjacks/warbeasts.

I play them with Gunnbjorn. Even with snipe, they do not have enough pow to threaten heavy, and not enough shots to threaten infantry. And they usually die as soon as fired upon. If not, they are useless once engaged in melee.I like the models, but I have never found them very useful on the table.

Just the objective. it makes models in BtB immune to blast IIRC.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I mean, multi-shot POW13 guns on cheap multi-wound infantry is nothing to sneeze at. I'd take 'em with Gunnbjorn for Snipe (so they can aim as much as possible) and the wall (to mitigate their durability problems), park them behind another unit, and use them in infantry fights as much as possible since they don't have the damage output to wreck most warjacks/warbeasts.

I play them with Gunnbjorn. Even with snipe, they do not have enough pow to threaten heavy, and not enough shots to threaten infantry. And they usually die as soon as fired upon. If not, they are useless once engaged in melee.I like the models, but I have never found them very useful on the table.

Their primary targets would seem to be light/medium infantry without a lot of Defense to me; it's niche enough I probably would prefer a more generalist unit below 50pts but d3 POW13 shots a model in a five-man unit for eight points is a lot better than most infantry.

Thanks all, I am here and taking notes...

In 40k I have always gravitated toward the "fanatics", armies that say "damn the torpedoes" and go for the throat.
It seems perfectly acceptable to have a few dramatic losses in the process (within reason).
I usually like to slip in just a tiny bit of "guile" into the mix of sneaking something into the backyard to surprise / distract as the baying hordes close-in.

There, enough storytelling but you get the gist.

I tend to like to make "take on all comers" armies with classic mixed warfare so this may be my opportunity.

I will look a bit more into the "base" units and then the effect of the attachments.
I feel like I should have paid attention to Fantasy Battle a little more.

I will also look a little more closely at the named characters, it seems they set the tone for the army as described (maybe not completely the tactics).

Your opinions are appreciated!

If you like things to get a little more "tricksy" then you might favour Menoth over Khador. Khador also has some finesse casters but usually has a much more straightforward "axe to face" approach to problem solving. If that didn't work is because you weren't using a big enough axe!

With that being said, all armies need to be extremely aggressive to win in WMH, things like staying back and shooting don't usually work very well or at all.

Also, characters play a different role in WMH than they do in 40k. Here characters are basically just like every other unit in your army and you'll need them to fill holes in your faction's strategy that aren't usually filled by other units. Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because something is a named character that it is only supposed to be used sparingly or in certain thematic lists.

Again, the best way to start is to take balanced "take all comers" lists, when you've managed to get a better understanding of the game and also of what type of players you have around you, then you can start skewing your lists to better fit your preferred play style or to crush those enemies that are more common in your meta. Avoid theme forces like the plague as you are just starting.

If he's looking for 'damn the torpedoes,' I'd certainly suggest Cryx over just about everything else. They're fast, they're direct, and they have just enough 'cleverness' to be interesting to play.

 BoardroomHero wrote:
If he's looking for 'damn the torpedoes,' I'd certainly suggest Cryx over just about everything else. They're fast, they're direct, and they have just enough 'cleverness' to be interesting to play.

Looking at other notes on these guys you are correct.
Kinda like why I gave the Necrons a pass: I used to be a long time goth, I am much happier now after recovery.
I am content with angry rather than undead.
They are tactically very powerful and that is tempting but painting a bunch of dead looking things I would not look forward to.
Wow, just chose looks over capability, I may have to give my head a shake.
Thanks!

I disagree with the "no bad models" comment. Cinerators and Crusaders are bad and they should feel bad. Quick, name a unit or jack that's worse for the points than the models I mentioned. Oh that's right, you can't because they're objectively worse than anything else you could take in the same category for the same amount of points no matter which caster you're using. WMH isn't some magical world where everything is in perfect balance. It just isn't nearly as unbalanced as 40k, where game designers treat that word like a curse word and treat the concept of balance as heresy.

Crusaders aren't bad. They're great in a few menoth builds that solve their problems or make them even cheaper. And they're dirt cheap as it is.

Cinerators are indeed bad though.

Toofast wrote:
I disagree with the "no bad models" comment. Cinerators and Crusaders are bad and they should feel bad. Quick, name a unit or jack that's worse for the points than the models I mentioned. Oh that's right, you can't because they're objectively worse than anything else you could take in the same category for the same amount of points no matter which caster you're using. WMH isn't some magical world where everything is in perfect balance. It just isn't nearly as unbalanced as 40k, where game designers treat that word like a curse word and treat the concept of balance as heresy.

Triumph. Reeves.

There are order of magnitude about two or three really seriously bad units in a given faction; most things are situational and good if you support them right, a very few models are good in every situation, and a very few models are strictly worse in every situation than a similar in-faction model. The thing is the balance curve sits at two or three useless things, two or three always-useful things, and 45ish things that work well in the right force out of a normal-sized faction of fifty units (numerical estimates derived from Circle not including the warlocks) instead of GW's approach of putting four or five hilariously broken things, eight or ten good things, eight or ten mediocre things, and thirty-five wastes of space in a typical Codex (numerical estimates derived from C:SM). Disclaimer: Numbers are intended to convey rough approximations, not to accurately represent the precise numbers in a given situation.

That said the Crusader is about as far from 'useless' as you can get. You may complain that it doesn't have any flashy abilities but I know (and play) several armies that would kill for a six-point heavy (!) with 32 boxes (!) and a POW 18 attack (!), all the other toys Menoth can give it are icing on the cake. Cinerators are one of the outperformed at the same pricepoint by a better unit things; they're only better than Bastions if you're up against someone who's going to toss lots of small-based infantry at you in clumps instead of taking the normal approach against Menoth heavy infantry and walking around them.