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I've been tossing around the idea that it might be fun to start a plastic injection sprued hobby related business. I tried doing some googling, and all I could really find was either ads for the tooling, ads for the injection machines, do it yourself hobby machines, or ads for utilizing 3rd party companies to design, inject and package parts in China.

So this is a serious question, if there anyone that knows the inside of the business on what it would cost for a small startup company.

I know privateer press started out with metal, and moved into plastic, but I'm not looking to do that. (not start with metal)

Also not looking to do resin either, as I'm looking to do sprue based kits.

I'm looking to see what it would cost to:
1) Purchase a starter injection molding machine(what tonnage is necessary for quality sprues).
2) How much it costs to make a mold.
3) what software is used
4) Is 3d printing a viable option..im thinking no..at this time..I.E. the detail quality isn't there yet for 3d printing compared to plastic injection.

If anyone in the business or the know reads this could you answer..or shoot me a PM, or shoot me a reading reference?

thanks..

GG

I work in the plastic packaging industry..

You need to also consider the operation cost of the machine.. once you get the machine and mold, I am sure its not just push a button and it works.. Finding proper training to operate the equipment may be a hurdle.

Most of the software we use at work is autocad.. a form of 3d program.. also not something you learn to use over night.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I work in the plastic packaging industry..

You need to also consider the operation cost of the machine.. once you get the machine and mold, I am sure its not just push a button and it works.. Finding proper training to operate the equipment may be a hurdle.

Most of the software we use at work is autocad.. a form of 3d program.. also not something you learn to use over night.

I'm familiar with autocad, and machine maintenance. (I'm a manufacturing engineer)

But I wasn't sure if there was some special software used by modelling companies beyond autocad.

GG

I helped a friend move a New Britain plastic injection molding machine a few years ago out to the junk yard.

He got rid of it b/c the thing because of the cost to run it and said it just ate electricity. I know he had gotten it cheap, about the price of an old beater.

Get in contact with Ken from Proxie models.

 Azazelx wrote:
Get in contact with Ken from Proxie models.

ok thanx

GG

 Azazelx wrote:
Get in contact with Ken from Proxie models.

+1. Also. take a look at his blog and read the oldest 2011 posts where he talks more about the process of setting up his operation.
http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com
He's one of the few folks I can think of who is making an indie hobby business of plastic injection molding.

If you've got CAD, and machine maintenance experience, you're head and shoulders ahead of most folks. However, remember that you're actually going to need (or need access to) 2 machines. A CNC milling machine to make the metal molds and the Injection molding machine.

Best of luck!

I think this has all been good advice (particularly looking through Ken's blog and/or talking to him about his experiences).

I'll add one more thing, though. I personally have never run an actual business (a Shapeways store certainly does not count), and I have no experience with injection molding. But from everything I've seen and read, the most important thing to increase your chances of being successful - don't attempt to do it alone.

It's extremely rare for one person to have all the sufficient skills (and man-hours) to run the creative, operating, and money/marketing aspects of a business like this all by themselves. It sounds to me like you're well up to speed on mold design/manufacture and machine operation, or at least you have a good head start on it compared to the rest of us.

However, if you're planning on dipping your toes into the creative side (like 3D sculpting models/figures), or you aren't familiar with the various intricacies of setting up and running a business, do not be afraid to bring in people who have experience. Just commissioning some model designs once you have your manufacturing process set up, or getting help from a lawyer in making sure your business is incorporated properly (i.e., whatever you have to do to keep your taxes in order, and not have a big company sue you into the ground and take your house away) could make a big difference.

If you aren't planning on starting a line of models, and you just want to sell your services as a plastic injection molding company, I think this is very doable.* Given your background, and the lack of US companies doing small production run plastic injection molding, you just might pull this off.


*I say this because I don't think there's any shortage of amateur figure sculptors in the world, but there is demand for hobbyist-accessible injection molding capability. "I want to injection mold things for hobbyists/small companies" seems like a better business plan to me than "I want to learn to sculpt to a high standard, create a product people want, AND learn to injection mold so I can sell my own designs." But if that is your plan, especially if you're approaching it as a giant, expensive hobby with a steep learning curve, don't let my naysaying stop you!

I've been running my own business for almost all my adult life. I have one piece of advice for your first business: don't start full time.

Find a way to start working around your day job. Then when you have sufficient revenue, start shrinking your day job. Maybe you can go part time, or become a consultant. When your revenue from you business is solid, then complete the transition.

I know several people who get sold on a dream and do something full time and blow through their savings before they are finally forced back to a job.

 generalgrog wrote:
I know privateer press started out with metal, and moved into plastic, but I'm not looking to do that. (not start with metal)

Keep in mind PP, and many other companies, outsources it's plastic manufacturing to China.

 generalgrog wrote:
I'm looking to see what it would cost to:
1) Purchase a starter injection molding machine(what tonnage is necessary for quality sprues).
2) How much it costs to make a mold.
3) what software is used
4) Is 3d printing a viable option..im thinking no..at this time..I.E. the detail quality isn't there yet for 3d printing compared to plastic injection.

Most of the digital sculptors I know use Rhino and Zbrush for sculpting, but none of them have experience in making the tools. There are separate programs available for the tool design that virtually tests the layout of the parts to see if it will fill properly, then you can make adjustments. After the testing is done it can export the file for CNC machines to use.

The type of machine you'll need will depend on the size of the sprues you want to make. If you want to keep them large like GW/Renedra sprues you'll need the big machines, the ones about the size of a small truck.

If you want to make smaller accessory sprues there are any number of manufacturers you can lease/buy machines from, like BOY or Morgan. New, most of these cost as much as a new car.

http://dr-boy.de/de/product/start/
http://www.morganindustriesinc.com/injection-molding-machine-features.htm

You can find used machines for much less. IIRC the first injection molding machines used at GW's Memphis HQ were bought used. It wasn't until a couple years later they bought new ones.

http://www.kdcapital.com/Machines.cfm/ID/4009

I don't know for certain, but if you want to make your own tools you'll need CNC equipment as well. There are also a number of pieces of support equipment injection molding machines need, but I don't know the specifics.

You can have the molds 3D printed instead of using CNC machining, but I don't think they last very long. You might get a few hundred sprues from it. Ive heard there are other materials for toolmaking, like fiber-filled resins, but they also have a limit on the number of parts, but are also much cheaper to produce.

I just want to say it's possible. proxie models is a single guy who managed to get plastic injection molding machines from a US factory that closed down when everything was outsourced to china. The gentleman basically turned his garage into a plastic mini's factory.

as said maby you might want to try and contact him about the hurdles and costs associated with doing it.

Other then that the only real advice I can give is make a good damn business plan..... A lack of a business plan is the reason alot of small companies with big ambitions die. =/

As far as software is concerned, Freeform Plus by Geomagic is what GW and Hasbro use for their digital sculpting, it has in-built features that aid in reducing undercuts while retaining maximum surface detail, model dissection, and sprue design. That being said, it's like $3000 US a seat for the license. Other 3d design packages include Rhino, Autodesk's 3DS Max, and the open source ZBrush (I'm sure there are others that I failed to mention). These programs will then export the CAD model that will go to the mold-maker.

Likely you would be out-sourcing the actual mold-making (though you are a manufacturing engineer....so maybe you have that base covered.) which I hear is the biggest hurdle, cost-wise, in breaking into extruded polystyrene casting. Then you would need the mold injection machines, as previously mentioned.

After that, polystyrene is so cheap (so cheap, it cost's more to recycle it than to just make more...the reason curbside recycling centers won't accept plastic #6 ), once you pay for your design, mold-manufacturing, and operating cost (maintenance, utilities) you are just printing money. The key is to make something that you will sell LOTS of, so you can make sure you maximize profits.

I was planning on focusing on the historical kit modeling sector, by issuing limited edition runs of hard to find aircraft subjects(and possibly nautical and tanks). in various scales. I.E..1/144,1/72,1/48,1/32..1/24. Similar to what Tamiya and others provide, but on a smaller and limited edition scale(at least to start).

But from what I have been reading..it seems that the 3d printing(and scanning) world has advanced so far, and will be so advanced in 10 years from now, that traditional mold makers will be threatened.

My research shows that in the future, customers will be able to purchase files and print their model kits at home. In fact some are already doing this, but it's only in the specialist market, and still expensive.

The problem I see, as what we have seen in the music and film industry, once you are able to download files, from the internet, many people will resort to pirate websites to get their files for free.

I'm rethinking how to approach this right now. If people can get stuff for free, they will choose that.

It seems you would have to offer a superior product that cannot be reproduced easily on 3d printer, in order to ensure your customers come to you.

GG

That is very good serious forward thinking, if you can get your project to work.

You could choose to manufacture high quality generic bitz so that 3d model printers dont have to bother with those details. Things like underwing stores, open cockpit pilot variants etc.

However if you want limited edition plastic kits you are talking oxymoron there Grog. Tools are expensive, limited edition kits are normally resin, you choose plastic for mass production.

If you really want to do historical follow the market and make 15mm. First nobody can stop you, second there is a thirst for 15mm military vehicles people want and there are too many for any plastic manufacturer to do them all.
FoW and similar games players will love you.

There is also always a market in model railway accessories.

 Orlanth wrote:
That is very good serious forward thinking, if you can get your project to work.

You could choose to manufacture high quality generic bitz so that 3d model printers dont have to bother with those details. Things like underwing stores, open cockpit pilot variants etc.

However if you want limited edition plastic kits you are talking oxymoron there Grog. Tools are expensive, limited edition kits are normally resin, you choose plastic for mass production.

If you really want to do historical follow the market and make 15mm. First nobody can stop you, second there is a thirst for 15mm military vehicles people want and there are too many for any plastic manufacturer to do them all.
FoW and similar games players will love you.

There is also always a market in model railway accessories.

Thanks Orlanth, I appreciate your input. The problem with Resin is, it's hard to work with, and a health hazard.

My experience shows that people resort to resin as a last resort to get what they need. If I can provide it in plastic it would, for the most part be preferred. The main reason why people use resin for limited kit runs, is because casting resin isn't that hard to do. This is why there is such a huge forgery market coming out of Asia and eastern Europe for Forgeworld recasts...its easy to do.

Its almost impossible to resin cast a sprue, but a sprue could be digitally scanned and printed, thus a reason why I am thinking plastic injection for a start-up is not the way to go. Only big companies like Tamiya, Revell, GW, etc, can afford to lose a certain percentage of their business to forgers, whereas a startup can't take those kind of hits to sales.

I would hate to invest $500K in a start up only to see 5 to 10 years from now the technology in 3d printing is so good that all of my work is on the internet for free.

GG

If you're thinking about doing plastic models, you really have to drop the "limited edition" thing, unless by limited edition you mean limited to a run of several thousand each. Plastic models depend on a large volume of sales to recoup expenses. However, you are correct that for kits, plastic is by far the preferred medium.

Take a look at what Wingnut Wings is doing.
http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/
A close look at the "about us" section will give you some idea of the expertise you need on your team and the kits themselves will give you some idea of the price and piece count required for large scale kits.

They are doing high quality limited-run injection molded kits of ww1 aircraft in 1/32 and seem to be doing well. gowever, there are some hurdles:
1) If you're trying to appeal to military modelers, your special kits are probably going to have to include decals and brass parts.
2) They had Peter Jackson's financial backing and guidance and while they are a business, it seems that they've got a bit more financial leway than most companies.
3)They have a good sized staff.
4) The kits only sell for around $80-$300 each. This seems like much but when you realize that this is multiple sprues, decals, brass, etc, it becomes clear how much effort and investment will go into each kit.
5) They are technically "limited edition" but they have said that this will change and all the kits that sell out will be released with additional elements (and presumably a higher price point) eventually.

Here's an article from a few years ago about the company that might give you some more insight.
http://www.hyperscale.com/2010/features/wwinterviewdw_1.htm

Best of Luck!

Yes I'm very familiar with wingnut wings!! And Eduard as well.

So yeah Those two smaller companies are kind of a similar business model I was looking at doing. And by limited edition I wasn't referring to like 100 kits and that's it. I was referring to the exact kind of thing that Eduard and Wingnut wings do.

I am familiar with photoetch technique as it relates to electronics, and from what I have learned about the PE that is used in modeling industry it's not that hard to do, once you have designed the PE frame.(the design of the frame is where the complication comes in)

Thanks!!

GG

First off best of luck to you and keep us posted. Telling your story can help build a fanbase who'll support you once there are some products ready.

I'm neither an expert in plastic molding nor running a business but let me throw in my $.05 (adjusted for inflation).

1 - Consider making another company's models - Basically doing what Rendara does, make sprues behind the scenes and let someone else do design and markeing. There's a lot of smaller companies out there what would love to do plastic but are reluctant to jump into Chinese production. this would take the pressure off of you to find talented sculptors/artists and you won't need to build a fanbase since presumably they would have their own. Some of the 3rd party stuff out there like Mad Robot is amazing, but I'm not interested in buying their stuff in resin.

2 - Make basic, universal stuff - I just bought some stuff from Proxie because they make universal terrain in various scales and bases/base add ons. They didn't need to build a game or universe, I'm buying stuff for other games. Some things I'd love to have in plastic:

Doors, windows, cameras, consoles, furniture and other details to dress up plasticard or MDF terrain

Guns, pouches, heads and other conversion bits for 28mm figures

Ruins, wrecked vehicles, debries in 28mm and 5mm for terrain and basing (I imagine 15mm for FoW would be welcome too)

Obviously I can go all day but those are 3 things no one is really making which I see in resin but would love in plastic

3 - Find a niche and do a kickstarter - If you're producing your own stuff you need to build a brand as the company that does X. Once you prove you can do, I dunno, Steampunk Samurai or 15mm War of Spanish Succession or whatever you can branch out. But a tight focus early on can build enthusiasm and a brand.

4 - Post things like this in several other places, The Miniatures Page is great for historical players, Frothres Unite is run by some small UK manufacturers and should have good advice. Also seek out related markets like Heroclix, X-Wing, Star Trek Attack Wing, I bet they'd be interested in terrain/bitz etc.

5 - I wouldn't worry too much about 3d printing. 3d printed models take time, they use up resin and in the end they're harder to work with than plastic. I can see myself printing off some one-off hero models but for the bulk of an army nothing beats mass production.

Anyway hope this helps.

It sounds like you want to be Proxie Models. Here, read his blog - http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/