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I often here how bolters are terrible weapons and I'm just curious as to whether this is a recent thing, or whether they've always been bad?

Also, I'm thinking of the Bolter in terms of its current statline (S4 AP5 Rapid Fire) - just in case it had a different profile in the very early editions.

Bolters have always been pretty much garbage because of how much the marine wielding them cost. They were particularly underpowered in 2nd ed.

The imagination that the enemies die in droves when shot by bolter wielding Marines is wrong.
I think bolters should have rending without any cost increase.

They gave it to the Eldar on a superior weapon type!

Martel732 wrote:
They gave it to the Eldar on a superior weapon type!

Eldar have superior technology.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They gave it to the Eldar on a superior weapon type!

Eldar have superior technology.

Then they need to pay for it in a points-based game.

Martel732 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They gave it to the Eldar on a superior weapon type!

Eldar have superior technology.

Then they need to pay for it in a points-based game.

Which Eldar units aren't paying for the pseudo-rending on their guns?

From where I'm standing, none of them. At least not enough.

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters have always been pretty much garbage because of how much the marine wielding them cost. They were particularly underpowered in 2nd ed.

It was the marines that were garbage at 30 points a piece. The bolter was sweet. Just ask my 2nd edition Orks. It was an awesome weapon in 2nd edition. It's always sucked since 3rd onwards, but it's even worse in the escalating environment (super-heavies, vehicle spam, T8 monstrous creatures, etc).

My IG infantry would kill for bolters... But they have lasguns, so they can't.

Martel732 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They gave it to the Eldar on a superior weapon type!

Eldar have superior technology.

Then they need to pay for it in a points-based game.

It happens in each new codex that GW changes rules of wargear and whatnot.
Look at furious change which formerly also gave +1 I.

 docdoom77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters have always been pretty much garbage because of how much the marine wielding them cost. They were particularly underpowered in 2nd ed.

It was the marines that were garbage at 30 points a piece. The bolter was sweet. Just ask my 2nd edition Orks. It was an awesome weapon in 2nd edition. It's always sucked since 3rd onwards, but it's even worse in the escalating environment (super-heavies, vehicle spam, T8 monstrous creatures, etc).

S4 -1 armor save with two shots if the model stood still was terrible in a game with S4 -2 armor save sustained fire dice catapults, and S4 -2 armor save TWO sustained fire dice sonic blasters. Besides, Orks just deployed a dozen pulsa rokkits and won. As I said, marines were unplayable.

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters have always been pretty much garbage because of how much the marine wielding them cost. They were particularly underpowered in 2nd ed.

There's nothing really wrong with the bolter itself, but it has no place as a mainstay weapon on a 14+ point model.

For example, Inquisition acolytes with bolters for 5 points are pretty solid.

They have had that exact weapon profile since I started playing over 10 years ago. It was pretty bad then in 4th-ish. It's probably even worse now. It would be a great weapon for guardsman but on a marine it's an absolute waste of 14 points.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters have always been pretty much garbage because of how much the marine wielding them cost. They were particularly underpowered in 2nd ed.

There's nothing really wrong with the bolter itself, but it has no place as a mainstay weapon on a 14+ point model.

For example, Inquisition acolytes with bolters for 5 points are pretty solid.

I get your point, but it IS the mainstay weapon of a 14+ point model, and so it is terrible in that context.

Martel732 wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters have always been pretty much garbage because of how much the marine wielding them cost. They were particularly underpowered in 2nd ed.

It was the marines that were garbage at 30 points a piece. The bolter was sweet. Just ask my 2nd edition Orks. It was an awesome weapon in 2nd edition. It's always sucked since 3rd onwards, but it's even worse in the escalating environment (super-heavies, vehicle spam, T8 monstrous creatures, etc).

S4 -1 armor save with two shots if the model stood still was terrible in a game with S4 -2 armor save sustained fire dice catapults, and S4 -2 armor save TWO sustained fire dice sonic blasters. Besides, Orks just deployed a dozen pulsa rokkits and won. As I said, marines were unplayable.

We didn't really stand for cheese like Pulsa-rokkit spam. In a standard game, Orks with Bolters rocked. Just run for a turn or two and let go with close range shots (that +1 to hit was crucial). Dropped marines like flies.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They have had that exact weapon profile since I started playing over 10 years ago. It was pretty bad then in 4th-ish. It's probably even worse now. It would be a great weapon for guardsman but on a marine it's an absolute waste of 14 points.

Bolters are only effective in rapid fire range.
Often Marines get into 12" range only once per game.
After the game you can ask how many times they fired their bolters.

 docdoom77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters have always been pretty much garbage because of how much the marine wielding them cost. They were particularly underpowered in 2nd ed.

It was the marines that were garbage at 30 points a piece. The bolter was sweet. Just ask my 2nd edition Orks. It was an awesome weapon in 2nd edition. It's always sucked since 3rd onwards, but it's even worse in the escalating environment (super-heavies, vehicle spam, T8 monstrous creatures, etc).

S4 -1 armor save with two shots if the model stood still was terrible in a game with S4 -2 armor save sustained fire dice catapults, and S4 -2 armor save TWO sustained fire dice sonic blasters. Besides, Orks just deployed a dozen pulsa rokkits and won. As I said, marines were unplayable.

We didn't really stand for cheese like Pulsa-rokkit spam. In a standard game, Orks with Bolters rocked. Just run for a turn or two and let go with close range shots (that +1 to hit was crucial). Dropped marines like flies.

That wasn't cheese. 200+ hormagaunts, 40+ blight grenades, a Chaos terminator army that didn't deploy til the last turn of the game, and warp spiders. THOSE were cheese. Pulsa rokkits were just what Orks did in 2nd.

Martel732 wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters have always been pretty much garbage because of how much the marine wielding them cost. They were particularly underpowered in 2nd ed.

It was the marines that were garbage at 30 points a piece. The bolter was sweet. Just ask my 2nd edition Orks. It was an awesome weapon in 2nd edition. It's always sucked since 3rd onwards, but it's even worse in the escalating environment (super-heavies, vehicle spam, T8 monstrous creatures, etc).

S4 -1 armor save with two shots if the model stood still was terrible in a game with S4 -2 armor save sustained fire dice catapults, and S4 -2 armor save TWO sustained fire dice sonic blasters. Besides, Orks just deployed a dozen pulsa rokkits and won. As I said, marines were unplayable.

We didn't really stand for cheese like Pulsa-rokkit spam. In a standard game, Orks with Bolters rocked. Just run for a turn or two and let go with close range shots (that +1 to hit was crucial). Dropped marines like flies.

That wasn't cheese. 200+ hormagaunts, 40+ blight grenades, a Chaos terminator army that didn't deploy til the last turn of the game, and warp spiders. THOSE were cheese. Pulsa rokkits were just what Orks did in 2nd.

Which goes to show how different metas shape your experience. We never saw more than one Pulsa. Orks were about tons of bolters and cheap fast vehicles when I played.

Also, we were pretty narrative and casual, so that makes a huge difference. No one would have pulled any of the crap you listed at my old store, just wasn't our style. At any rate, it was still the marine that sucked and not the bolter. S4 on a basic weapon was gold back then. Sure Catapults were better, but the bolter was still a solid basic weapon.

Never won a game in 2nd with the old Angels of Death codex. Not a single game.

I used to flood the board with Blind Grenades. People were so ticked because they could not target me until I came out of the glow. I made special templates for them and the table soon looked cluttered. It was more of a mind tactic. But by the time I moved up, unhindered, the bolter shots were effective.

Martel732 wrote:
Never won a game in 2nd with the old Angels of Death codex. Not a single game.

Dark Angels or Blood Angels?

Dark Angels were especially laughable with expensive, mandatory upgrades that didn't change their performance much.

 docdoom77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Never won a game in 2nd with the old Angels of Death codex. Not a single game.

Dark Angels or Blood Angels?

Dark Angels were especially laughable with expensive, mandatory upgrades that didn't change their performance much.

BA. But I think loyalist marines combined record at my store from 1994-1996 or whenever was under 5-over 50. 2nd ed was a marine massacre.

Martel732 wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Never won a game in 2nd with the old Angels of Death codex. Not a single game.

Dark Angels or Blood Angels?

Dark Angels were especially laughable with expensive, mandatory upgrades that didn't change their performance much.

BA. But I think loyalist marines combined record at my store from 1994-1996 or whenever was under 5-over 50. 2nd ed was a marine massacre.

They sucked. No doubt. Even with 2nd editions higher point base, 30 pts was too much for a guy who essentially only had 4+ save (except against termagaunts, I guess). They died in droves and could only put out any decent firepower if they stood stock still (a death sentence with 2nd edition's LOS rules).

Space Wolves weren't bad with all the BS and WS 5 crap (that really made a difference back then), but anything Codex was garbage.

I honestly think GW overcompensated in 3rd, but now at 7th we are back to the fundamental meq being a joke. It's all about biker troops, grav stars, and smashbane.

I seriously think bolters just need to have rending at no extra cost. I think it's kind of dumb when my infantry can't even put up a fight in most shooting matches.

Martel732 wrote:
I honestly think GW overcompensated in 3rd, but now at 7th we are back to the fundamental meq being a joke. It's all about biker troops, grav stars, and smashbane.

I agree. But I don't think the bolter is the problem. The problem is the negation of 3+ saves having any value these days. It's bad enough that with the cover/AP system marines can't be both obscured and armored, but with the mass of AP3 and better weaponry available... ugh. 3+ worked in 3rd edition because ap3 and better were far more rare.

Unfortunately, the boat has sailed. They'd have to completely reboot the game (ala 3rd edition) to fix it at this point.

It's a combination. 3+ doesn't hold up like it used to AND tac marines have no offensive punch. They're bad on both ends.

Bolters are far from rubbish, people just be greedy for easy wins. I'm so happy my new army i've chosen to build (BA) is getting listed as "mid lvl army at best".

 eskimo wrote:
Bolters are far from rubbish, people just be greedy for easy wins. I'm so happy my new army i've chosen to build (BA) is getting listed as "mid lvl army at best".

I wish this were true. But it's not. After suffering through 2nd ed, I recognize useless weaponry when I see it.