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 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least I've never made a BA poll.

You won a decurion with angel's blade. Got no right to complain now.

It's a really awful decurion in comparison, though.

Martel732 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
At least I've never made a BA poll.

You won a decurion with angel's blade. Got no right to complain now.

It's a really awful decurion in comparison, though.

Oh, boo-hoo. Spend a week playing Grey Knights where the only formation your army's got has a minimum cost of over 2,300pts and permits you to use exactly one non-tax model and then start whining at me that your free stuff isn't as nice as other peoples'.

That's just it. There's no free stuff in the BA decurion.

And that's why you should play Red Marine Gladius, not BA...

I could probably do that, actually. I would just need the vanilla codex, that radioactive cheese book.

Martel732 wrote:
radioactive cheese

Careful with that stuff, you might grow nipple horns.

Magnus, when it's really, really cold outside!

Getting back to Red Marines vs BA - it's a question of how important winning is vs theme.

Magnus sounds like he was designed by Timmy: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709799.page

Id have to say my favorite part of the Magnus model is the wings. Not only do they have a nice aesthetic look but the way they go into the back of the torso is perfect. Once I get him primed for painting I wont have to worry about pinning or magnetizing the wings for transport. They slide in and out easily and stick no problem.

Hate the horn nipples. Going to green stuff the chest plate so its smooth. Going to keep the horns for when I build my TS Renegade Knight ally.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Magnus, when it's really, really cold outside!

Getting back to Red Marines vs BA - it's a question of how important winning is vs theme.

If its not cold, he is just REALLY excited. Like he could cut terminator armor with those things. Really he only has 5 attacks, those 2 diamond cutters are his last 2.

Double horny for furry vengeance.

Martel732 wrote:
That's just it. There's no free stuff in the BA decurion.

...Start over. How many points are you paying for +I on the charge, 6" scout moves on everyone (which stack with real Scout, so your Lucifer Armoured Task Force gets to go 18" before the game starts), +1A for all your Death Company, rerollable Reserves starting turn one and d6" scatter for your Veterans/Terminators, and the ability to make all your Dreadnaughts get a free phase of attacking at the start of one turn?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's just it. There's no free stuff in the BA decurion.

...Start over. How many points are you paying for +I on the charge, 6" scout moves on everyone (which stack with real Scout, so your Lucifer Armoured Task Force gets to go 18" before the game starts), +1A for all your Death Company, rerollable Reserves starting turn one and d6" scatter for your Veterans/Terminators, and the ability to make all your Dreadnaughts get a free phase of attacking at the start of one turn?

Still more than standard Space Marines, not even including the free stuff. Death Company are WAY more expensive, and most of the reserves manipulators were rules Blood Angels had in previous codex without having to field a massive 'gladius tax'. The Blood Angels remain one of the weakest SM armies, until you scale up to about 2500 point games - but that isn't very helpful in "competitive" 40k.

Looks like you got a lot of those rules wrong too in fact.

 pumaman1 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Magnus, when it's really, really cold outside!

Getting back to Red Marines vs BA - it's a question of how important winning is vs theme.

If its not cold, he is just REALLY excited. Like he could cut terminator armor with those things. Really he only has 5 attacks, those 2 diamond cutters are his last 2.

It's both. He is excited to be on cold, cold Fenris.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's just it. There's no free stuff in the BA decurion.

...Start over. How many points are you paying for +I on the charge, 6" scout moves on everyone (which stack with real Scout, so your Lucifer Armoured Task Force gets to go 18" before the game starts), +1A for all your Death Company, rerollable Reserves starting turn one and d6" scatter for your Veterans/Terminators, and the ability to make all your Dreadnaughts get a free phase of attacking at the start of one turn?

Still more than standard Space Marines, not even including the free stuff. Death Company are WAY more expensive, and most of the reserves manipulators were rules Blood Angels had in previous codex without having to field a massive 'gladius tax'. The Blood Angels remain one of the weakest SM armies, until you scale up to about 2500 point games - but that isn't very helpful in "competitive" 40k.

Looks like you got a lot of those rules wrong too in fact.

I'm challenging the assertion that Blood Angels have 'no free stuff' by comparison to armies that have no formations, not that their formation benefits are worse than the vanilla Marine book. We know their stuff is worse than getting free transports. I'm saying it's better than being GK or Orks and not having any free stuff at all.

Also I'm skeptical about your position on Death Company; they may be 20pts/model, but find me another Marine unit that's packing a Veteran statline, Fearless, Furious Charge, FNP, Rage, and a formation that gives a fairly persistent +1A for anywhere near that cost. (When Death Company get the melee weapon price drop that's been slowly rippling through Marine books and hasn't quite caught up to SW/BA yet they're going to be challenging Wulfen for the title of strongest melee unit in the Imperium, as is they're just good.)

I'm looking at the Red Thirst edition BA book and describing individual formation benefits as well as detachment benefits. I'm fairly certain I'm not reading any of them incorrectly (though as of the current FAQ your Fast Super-Scouting Land Raiders aren't giving you charges on units 13" into the enemy deployment zone turn one, so that's a downside).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's just it. There's no free stuff in the BA decurion.

...Start over. How many points are you paying for +I on the charge, 6" scout moves on everyone (which stack with real Scout, so your Lucifer Armoured Task Force gets to go 18" before the game starts), +1A for all your Death Company, rerollable Reserves starting turn one and d6" scatter for your Veterans/Terminators, and the ability to make all your Dreadnaughts get a free phase of attacking at the start of one turn?

Still more than standard Space Marines, not even including the free stuff. Death Company are WAY more expensive, and most of the reserves manipulators were rules Blood Angels had in previous codex without having to field a massive 'gladius tax'. The Blood Angels remain one of the weakest SM armies, until you scale up to about 2500 point games - but that isn't very helpful in "competitive" 40k.

Looks like you got a lot of those rules wrong too in fact.

I'm challenging the assertion that Blood Angels have 'no free stuff' by comparison to armies that have no formations, not that their formation benefits are worse than the vanilla Marine book. We know their stuff is worse than getting free transports. I'm saying it's better than being GK or Orks and not having any free stuff at all.

Also I'm skeptical about your position on Death Company; they may be 20pts/model, but find me another Marine unit that's packing a Veteran statline, Fearless, Furious Charge, FNP, Rage, and a formation that gives a fairly persistent +1A for anywhere near that cost. (When Death Company get the melee weapon price drop that's been slowly rippling through Marine books and hasn't quite caught up to SW/BA yet they're going to be challenging Wulfen for the title of strongest melee unit in the Imperium, as is they're just good.)

I'm looking at the Red Thirst edition BA book and describing individual formation benefits as well as detachment benefits. I'm fairly certain I'm not reading any of them incorrectly (though as of the current FAQ your Fast Super-Scouting Land Raiders aren't giving you charges on units 13" into the enemy deployment zone turn one, so that's a downside).

If you're comparing BA to Orks and Grey Knights then that's just silly - the BA JUST got an update, neither of those codex have (yet) and they're totally different animals. As for Death Company - IF they get the melee weapon price drop which seems unlikely as they JUST got an update, and regardless they don't have it now, you can't judge them on possible futures. Also the "disordered charge" mechanic does negate several of their bonuses, something that regular Space Marines don't have to worry about.

And the DC formation, which is the cheapest of the BA "core" formations is still really expensive and requires a DC dreadnought. The +1A is only if they stick close to their Chaplain which makes no sense for a drop assault type army.

None of the dreadnoughts get an extra attack on turn 1 unless they all deploy on the table, at which point only the shooty dreads benefit, not the "BA" dreads.

Finally I challenge you to actually build an 1850 (or 1650 the currently trending tournament size game) which stacks those benefits and is even a remotely balanced force. This codex is amazing at 2500+ but otherwise, no ...still the worst of the Space Marines.

We're arguing different points. Martel asserted that 'there's no free stuff in the BA decurion'. I'm trying to point out that there's a lot of free stuff and a lot of it's pretty useful.

You're trying to argue that it's still worse than the other Marine books. I'm not disputing that point.

(As for the 'just got an update' problem, the last time CSM got an update was the same time as the last BA update and they're getting another one now, so...)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We're arguing different points. Martel asserted that 'there's no free stuff in the BA decurion'. I'm trying to point out that there's a lot of free stuff and a lot of it's pretty useful.

You're trying to argue that it's still worse than the other Marine books. I'm not disputing that point.

(As for the 'just got an update' problem, the last time CSM got an update was the same time as the last BA update and they're getting another one now, so...)

Ok gotcha -- though I'd say the CSM "Legions" is also quite a different animal than previous CSM updates.

As far as your other point goes -- the reason I tend to agree with Martel is because of the enormous 'tax' on the BA decurions. You absolutely get some benefits and special rules (no free units anyway), but they come at a great cost and they lose Objective Secured as well.

Like I said, building a 1650 list (or even 1850) that can actually take advantage of the BA "Free stuff" is really the challenge though.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We're arguing different points. Martel asserted that 'there's no free stuff in the BA decurion'. I'm trying to point out that there's a lot of free stuff and a lot of it's pretty useful.

You're trying to argue that it's still worse than the other Marine books. I'm not disputing that point.

(As for the 'just got an update' problem, the last time CSM got an update was the same time as the last BA update and they're getting another one now, so...)

Ok gotcha -- though I'd say the CSM "Legions" is also quite a different animal than previous CSM updates.

As far as your other point goes -- the reason I tend to agree with Martel is because of the enormous 'tax' on the BA decurions. You absolutely get some benefits and special rules (no free units anyway), but they come at a great cost and they lose Objective Secured as well.

Like I said, building a 1650 list (or even 1850) that can actually take advantage of the BA "Free stuff" is really the challenge though.

The Death Company metaformation is quite a lot better than the base Angel's Blade one, if you wanted to use the Angel's Blade detachment I will concede you'd almost certainly be better off dropping the meta-formation and building a multiple-detachment army out of the component formations.

Building an army out of the component formations still gets you quite a lot of free stuff. And within the Death Company metaformation the wall of Fast Flamestorm cannons with 18" of Scout move are quite capable of making scatterbikes s**t themselves and run for the hills.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
We're arguing different points. Martel asserted that 'there's no free stuff in the BA decurion'. I'm trying to point out that there's a lot of free stuff and a lot of it's pretty useful.

You're trying to argue that it's still worse than the other Marine books. I'm not disputing that point.

(As for the 'just got an update' problem, the last time CSM got an update was the same time as the last BA update and they're getting another one now, so...)

Ok gotcha -- though I'd say the CSM "Legions" is also quite a different animal than previous CSM updates.

As far as your other point goes -- the reason I tend to agree with Martel is because of the enormous 'tax' on the BA decurions. You absolutely get some benefits and special rules (no free units anyway), but they come at a great cost and they lose Objective Secured as well.

Like I said, building a 1650 list (or even 1850) that can actually take advantage of the BA "Free stuff" is really the challenge though.

The Death Company metaformation is quite a lot better than the base Angel's Blade one, if you wanted to use the Angel's Blade detachment I will concede you'd almost certainly be better off dropping the meta-formation and building a multiple-detachment army out of the component formations.

Building an army out of the component formations still gets you quite a lot of free stuff. And within the Death Company metaformation the wall of Fast Flamestorm cannons with 18" of Scout move are quite capable of making scatterbikes s**t themselves and run for the hills.

More than before Angel's Blade absolutely but when you break it down... just doing component formations you lose Red Thirst, and the "free stuff" / formation special rules are on already expensive and situational units like Terminators, Sanguinary Guard, Landraiders and short-ranged Baal Predators.

The DC formation with the Baal/Landraider formation is crazy expensive. As I've said - this codex is awesome at 2500+ or higher, it's really just great - but for smaller point games, you can't build a balanced list than is truly competitive using any of the Angel's Blade stuff.

The only BA formation with truly free stuff is the Archangel sanguine wing. Which is why its still in my arsenal.

The DC formation is really not as good as everyone thinks, imo. Especially if you try to combine with something like LATF. The game has just passed DC by.

A big problem with BA, in my estimation. Is how much this edition punish's assault.

*BA not DA. Damn letters!

Unless you can get a Death Company Marine for 10 points, all those fancy rules mean pretty much nothing at 1850 points, when your opponent rolls in with a Gladius and 2260 points. This DA list won the Bay Area Open:

Lion’s Blade Strike Force
Company Master: (Warlord) Fist, Artificer Armor
Chaplain: Bike, Auspex
Tactical Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon,
Tactical Squad: Rhino, Multi-Melta
Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB), Heavy Bolter
Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB)
Tactical Squad: Razorback (HB)
Tactical Squad: Pod, Melta/Combi-Melta
Assault Squad: 2x Flamers, Pod
Assault Squad: 2x Flamers, Pod
Devastator Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon
Devastator Squad: Rhino, Grav-Cannon
Scouts
Ravenwing Strike Force
Techmarine: Bike, Auspex
Ravenwing Command Squad: 5 Black Knights, Apothecary, 5 Plasma Talons, Grenade Launcher
Ravenwing Black Knight Squad: 5 Black Knights, Huntmaster, 5 Plasma Talons, Grenade Launcher
Ravenwing Darkshroud

He rolled 2,260 points in an 1.850 tournament using ITC rules. Everything in the Lion Blade detachment received Grim Resolve, meaning full BS in Overwatch. Then all the Ravenwing bikes get a +1 BS for shooting at the same unit another Ravenwing unit has hit. All units in the Battle Demi-Companies have Objective Secured- so that's all the Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Devastaror Squads, Scouts, Ravenwing Bikes...

Death Company has a Vet statline (what, 2 attacks makes for a Vet statline? OK...), Fearless, Furious Charge, FNP, Rage, Relentless, and +1 attack. What's telling here is the rules not present: Objective Secured, any kind of movement bonus, any kind of good close combat (no power weapons, fists, rending, anything to make them ignore armor saves...) BA have to pay for everything. DC are awesome when they charge, but if they don't charge, then they are a very expensive Space Marine unit with FNP and fearless. They can't even take an objective or contest one vs. someone with Objective Secured.

Imperials taking over a thread about Magnus the Red, whining about whose list is worse while they are SM. Right.

 Tamwulf wrote:


He rolled 2,260 points in an 1.850 tournament using ITC rules. Everything in the Lion Blade detachment received Grim Resolve, meaning full BS in Overwatch. Then all the Ravenwing bikes get a +1 BS for shooting at the same unit another Ravenwing unit has hit. All units in the Battle Demi-Companies have Objective Secured- so that's all the Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, Devastaror Squads, Scouts, Ravenwing Bikes...

A bunch of that information is incorrect. The Lion's Blade gets full BS Overwatch from the Supreme Fire Discipline rule, not Grim Resolve. The Ravenwing Strike Force is not an auxiliary to the Lion's Blade, but an separate detachment, so they don't get Supreme Fire Discipline or Objective Secured. They also don't get any BS boosts for shooting at units that have been shot at by other Ravenwing units. That is a rule in the Ravenwing Attack Squadron, which consists of a Bike Squad (NOT Black Knights) and a Land Speeder. If the Bike Squad shoots at a unit the Land Speeder has shot at, it gets +1 BS, but that's not the same as RW units daisy-chaining BS boosts to each other.

Which is not to say Blood Angels didn't get shafted with their Battle Company formation, but it seems like somebody always has to get the shaft from GW.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Which is not to say Blood Angels didn't get shafted with their Battle Company formation, but it seems like somebody always has to get the shaft from GW.

...and this shafted guy is NEVER imperial. It's always either Tyranid, Ork or Chaos. Don't fret that your dudes don't have broken stuff when other armies don't even have stuff in the first place...

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

Which is not to say Blood Angels didn't get shafted with their Battle Company formation, but it seems like somebody always has to get the shaft from GW.

...and this shafted guy is NEVER imperial. It's always either Tyranid, Ork or Chaos. Don't fret that your dudes don't have broken stuff when other armies don't even have stuff in the first place...

Dark Angels. From late 4th ed till 7th ed. Only lately have DA players enjoyed a dex that aspires to be top-tier.

I remember DA some years ago playing 2-3 big units of black knights with 2+ rerollable cover save somehow. But yeah, compared to the rest imperials, DA and Black Templars look like the poor cousins.

"..and this shafted guy is NEVER imperial. "

This is patently false. The consistently best army is Eldar, by a long shot.

Martel732 wrote:
"..and this shafted guy is NEVER imperial. "

This is patently false. The consistently best army is Eldar, by a long shot.

What does being the best army have to do with being shafted?

Here's some piece of info for imperials who can't see past the emprah. If you are not as powerful as Eldar, it does not mean you are shafted. You are shafted if you are Tyranid, if you are Ork, if you are CSM. You know, the armies you walk all over with your gladius.