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Exactly what it says on the tin. I'm curious.

Auroras? Known to love vehicles and with a relic thunderhammer forged out of the axle of a Land Raider?

 dementedwombat wrote:
Auroras? Known to love vehicles and with a relic thunderhammer forged out of the axle of a Land Raider?

Well that could be done under Iron Hands Chapter Tactics, but are there any Chapters that can't be really represented by any means?
Mortifactors might be an okay example of this.

I know the Forgeworld rules say Iron Snakes use Ultramarine chapter tactics, but I don't think that you can do the every squad has an apothicary, a special weapon and no Heavy weapon with any list can you?

Celestial Guard.
We're CSM hating, Hell-Forge hunting, Huron fighting, Tyranid killing, bright purple ocean worlders.
Who like axes.
What Chapter Tactic would fit that?

Like, 970 or so Chapters.

 Psienesis wrote:
Like, 970 or so Chapters.

In the rules. And name another bright purple underwater chapter!

Rainbow Warriors

 dementedwombat wrote:
Rainbow Warriors

High humidity =/= ocean.
Also, they are blue.

most chapters you can simulate pretty well using a chapter tactic and an appropriate list. Perhaps Blood Ravens? I guess you could just take two librarians and Raven Guard CT though.

 Verviedi wrote:
Celestial Guard.
We're CSM hating, Hell-Forge hunting, Huron fighting, Tyranid killing, bright purple ocean worlders.
Who like axes.
What Chapter Tactic would fit that?

Hmmm Executioner Tactics? Or Red Hunters.

Iron Hands, even despite having gotten a supplement. It is still not possible to have sergeants in dreadnought armour nor do their bionics enhance their performance like they do in the fluff.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is still not possible to have sergeants in dreadnought armour

They call this a 'Dreadnaught'.

There are supposedly in the neighborhood of a thousand different Chapters, Lexicanum has a list at http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Loyal_Space_Marine_Chapters_(List) (most of these are nothing more than a name and a paint job, the point of Space Marines is that you're supposed to make stuff up).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

orkybenji wrote:
most chapters you can simulate pretty well using a chapter tactic and an appropriate list. Perhaps Blood Ravens? I guess you could just take two librarians and Raven Guard CT though.

...Why Raven Guard, particularly? (I use Ultramarines, on the grounds that the Blood Ravens don't really tend towards one set of units over another in the Dawn of War games beyond not having Bikes for some strange reason)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is still not possible to have sergeants in dreadnought armour

They call this a 'Dreadnaught'.

I'm assuming he meant *Tactical* Dreadnought Armour (aka Terminator), under the Iron Hand's Index Astartes article - both rules and fluff - the Iron Hand's didn't field Terminator squads, instead issuing it to sergeants of regular squads.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

There are supposedly in the neighborhood of a thousand different Chapters, Lexicanum has a list at http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Loyal_Space_Marine_Chapters_(List) (most of these are nothing more than a name and a paint job, the point of Space Marines is that you're supposed to make stuff up).

Cool, thanks that's actually a very interesting read.

 Gashrog wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is still not possible to have sergeants in dreadnought armour

They call this a 'Dreadnaught'.

I'm assuming he meant *Tactical* Dreadnought Armour (aka Terminator), under the Iron Hand's Index Astartes article - both rules and fluff - the Iron Hand's didn't field Terminator squads, instead issuing it to sergeants of regular squads.

That is what he meant. IH has been retconned so much it isn't funny. We lost the terminator sergeants, lost our one unique hq option (forge father), We have zero unique hqs (cal doesnt count he has no model and his rules are garbage). On top of all that we lost all our unique fluff for the most part. And have been portrayed poorly. Our primarch has been made into a complete joke as well. The model itself and his rules are awesome, but the primarch's death is a joke.

 NorseSig wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is still not possible to have sergeants in dreadnought armour

They call this a 'Dreadnaught'.

I'm assuming he meant *Tactical* Dreadnought Armour (aka Terminator), under the Iron Hand's Index Astartes article - both rules and fluff - the Iron Hand's didn't field Terminator squads, instead issuing it to sergeants of regular squads.

That is what he meant. IH has been retconned so much it isn't funny. We lost the terminator sergeants, lost our one unique hq option (forge father), We have zero unique hqs (cal doesnt count he has no model and his rules are garbage). On top of all that we lost all our unique fluff for the most part. And have been portrayed poorly. Our primarch has been made into a complete joke as well. The model itself and his rules are awesome, but the primarch's death is a joke.

1. Loss of Terminator sergeants isn't a big deal. Harder to fit such units in Drop Pods anyway.
2. If you're going to bother footslogging an HQ, you can do MUCH worse than Cal. S10 attacks with T6 along with the repair bonuses on top is nothing to sneeze at. He's no Chapter Master, but who is?
3. Fluff complaint and therefore I don't care as much.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is still not possible to have sergeants in dreadnought armour

They call this a 'Dreadnaught'.

I'm assuming he meant *Tactical* Dreadnought Armour (aka Terminator), under the Iron Hand's Index Astartes article - both rules and fluff - the Iron Hand's didn't field Terminator squads, instead issuing it to sergeants of regular squads.

That is what he meant. IH has been retconned so much it isn't funny. We lost the terminator sergeants, lost our one unique hq option (forge father), We have zero unique hqs (cal doesnt count he has no model and his rules are garbage). On top of all that we lost all our unique fluff for the most part. And have been portrayed poorly. Our primarch has been made into a complete joke as well. The model itself and his rules are awesome, but the primarch's death is a joke.

1. Loss of Terminator sergeants isn't a big deal. Harder to fit such units in Drop Pods anyway.
2. If you're going to bother footslogging an HQ, you can do MUCH worse than Cal. S10 attacks with T6 along with the repair bonuses on top is nothing to sneeze at. He's no Chapter Master, but who is?
3. Fluff complaint and therefore I don't care as much.

S10 T6 is neat but look at what you lose. You lose the ability to take 2 good hq options in an iron hands army. And i would much rather have a biker. Even his special ability stinks 50 points is way too much. If you are using him as a motf you are doing something wrong. Top it off with poor mobility for an underwhelming choice. You are much better off with a generic hq than to run this overcosted thing. A terminator captain/chapter master makes a better footslogger than Cal. So does a motf if you put himm in something with av14 ironstone and 3 servitors. Achilles Landraider for instance.

Maybe loss of terminator sergeants isn't a big deal but it was part of what made Iron Hands different. And with the current rules for tac squads dropping a model wouldnt hurt much. I never outfit them with heavy weapons anyway. Id rather have them mobile.

I believe at one point Iron hands also had dread hqs too. And lets not forget how overcosted techmarines are. 50 points for a stock techmarine is 25 points too many (and the master of the forge is a little overcosted for what he has and does as well). the Flesh is weak is not a particularly great chapter tactic. The only time TFIW is good thing is if you are running a biker hq in a biker command squad with an apothecary and you have thunder hammer+the shield eternal or thunder hammer + lightning claw+ gorgon's chain.

And your not really caring about Iron Hands losing fluff really doesn't matter to me. There are many Oron Hands players who do care about the retcons and loss of fluff though. IMO the fluff is part of the crunch. What is a chapter about what rules reflect that chapter, how well do those rules capture the feel of the chapter is all related to crunch. I guess the flesh of weak kind of represents the crunch of them but not very well. maybe if it was 5+fnp or their 30k rule of inviolate armor maybe. I feel 30k does a MUCH better job of portraying Iron Hands. Not perfect but much better. Cyber familiars aren't terminator armor sergeants but they give a more bionic vibe to the army.

 NorseSig wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is still not possible to have sergeants in dreadnought armour

They call this a 'Dreadnaught'.

I'm assuming he meant *Tactical* Dreadnought Armour (aka Terminator), under the Iron Hand's Index Astartes article - both rules and fluff - the Iron Hand's didn't field Terminator squads, instead issuing it to sergeants of regular squads.

That is what he meant. IH has been retconned so much it isn't funny. We lost the terminator sergeants, lost our one unique hq option (forge father), We have zero unique hqs (cal doesnt count he has no model and his rules are garbage). On top of all that we lost all our unique fluff for the most part. And have been portrayed poorly. Our primarch has been made into a complete joke as well. The model itself and his rules are awesome, but the primarch's death is a joke.

Ferrus never had some kind of heroic end. He was always killed at Istvaan. Or, in some versions "went missing and never returned", which is kind of like being killed, except if you're not dead, where have you been shirking your responsibilities as a Primarch for the last 10,000 years?

It's why I've always said the ends for Corax and Russ are so awful. They literally shirk their responsibilities at the time the Imperium needed them most. They're as bad as the traitors.

And the Khan then

ok ignoring ferrus' death (because that's pure opinion we could go arguing back and forth if he went out right, and a guy could come in saying he should have died wimpering for mercy and we'd basicly all be right as it's pure opinion,) the other stuff, is to be blunt is silly. first of all

TechMarines are NOT over costed, ok first of all artifacer armor in codex: CSMs is 20 points. so remvoe that from the cost and yhou're looking at a 30 points core. you have a servo harness, which basicly gives you a free power fist (25 points cost right there) so the techmarine is pretty much paid for even BEFORE you add in the ability to repair vehicles or improve terrain. and they don't even take a FOC slot.

the terminator sergents thing needed to be changed honestly, sure it sounds neat but it was problematic as per the rules it'd mean iron hands would be unable to take rhinos, razorbacks or drop pods. I think it'd be better to instead give vetern sergents the oppertunity to take artifacer armor and suggest that Iron hands sergents useally have artifacer armor. but that'd be a massivly unpopular option given the cost of that armor)

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is still not possible to have sergeants in dreadnought armour

They call this a 'Dreadnaught'.

I'm assuming he meant *Tactical* Dreadnought Armour (aka Terminator), under the Iron Hand's Index Astartes article - both rules and fluff - the Iron Hand's didn't field Terminator squads, instead issuing it to sergeants of regular squads.

That is what he meant. IH has been retconned so much it isn't funny. We lost the terminator sergeants, lost our one unique hq option (forge father), We have zero unique hqs (cal doesnt count he has no model and his rules are garbage). On top of all that we lost all our unique fluff for the most part. And have been portrayed poorly. Our primarch has been made into a complete joke as well. The model itself and his rules are awesome, but the primarch's death is a joke.

Ferrus never had some kind of heroic end. He was always killed at Istvaan. Or, in some versions "went missing and never returned", which is kind of like being killed, except if you're not dead, where have you been shirking your responsibilities as a Primarch for the last 10,000 years?

It's why I've always said the ends for Corax and Russ are so awful. They literally shirk their responsibilities at the time the Imperium needed them most. They're as bad as the traitors.

I never said he didn't die there it is HOW he died that pisses me off. It is so pathetic it isn't even funny. He was supposed be some bad@-s and he dies like he wasn't even a threat. If his death were more glorious I would understand. Not the mention the whole rushing ahead thing just doesn't seem believable to me because of how poorly done it was. I know that he always died there, but come on at least give him a death fitting of a primarch instead of the joke it is now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
ok ignoring ferrus' death (because that's pure opinion we could go arguing back and forth if he went out right, and a guy could come in saying he should have died wimpering for mercy and we'd basicly all be right as it's pure opinion,) the other stuff, is to be blunt is silly. first of all

TechMarines are NOT over costed, ok first of all artifacer armor in codex: CSMs is 20 points. so remvoe that from the cost and yhou're looking at a 30 points core. you have a servo harness, which basicly gives you a free power fist (25 points cost right there) so the techmarine is pretty much paid for even BEFORE you add in the ability to repair vehicles or improve terrain. and they don't even take a FOC slot.

the terminator sergents thing needed to be changed honestly, sure it sounds neat but it was problematic as per the rules it'd mean iron hands would be unable to take rhinos, razorbacks or drop pods. I think it'd be better to instead give vetern sergents the oppertunity to take artifacer armor and suggest that Iron hands sergents useally have artifacer armor. but that'd be a massivly unpopular option given the cost of that armor)

thats why with terminator armor sergeants you have an alternate ability to make doing that an option. like maybe it unlocks land raiders as transports or gives a banner effect to the unit. The banner effect would be appropriate given the Iron Hands reverance for the TDA. And yes Techmarines ARE overcosted. All that is on a 1 wound 1 attack basic marine statline. They are essentially a honour guard with one less base attack. Tech marines are NOT great fighters. That isn't their role anyway. 25 points seems about right for a techmarine to me maybe at most 30. To make a techmarine reliable at what it does you either have to give it a harness or take some servitors or some combination of the two. If you give the techmarine a bike to keep pace with faster vehicles you can't really take servitors meaning a harness is your best bet. If you want to have your techmarine be decent in close combat you have to take a specialist weapon for and extra attack. Doing all these things adds points to the techmarine. Granted you don't have to do all of them and most of the time you shouldn't, but the end result is a more expensive unit. Granted you dont have to get the extras. But stock 50 points is just way too much for techmarines.

Er... Space Wolves get Terminator armor Sgts(wolfguard) and they fit in drop pods just fine. I don't see how this is problematic.

 NorseSig wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
It is still not possible to have sergeants in dreadnought armour

They call this a 'Dreadnaught'.

I'm assuming he meant *Tactical* Dreadnought Armour (aka Terminator), under the Iron Hand's Index Astartes article - both rules and fluff - the Iron Hand's didn't field Terminator squads, instead issuing it to sergeants of regular squads.

That is what he meant. IH has been retconned so much it isn't funny. We lost the terminator sergeants, lost our one unique hq option (forge father), We have zero unique hqs (cal doesnt count he has no model and his rules are garbage). On top of all that we lost all our unique fluff for the most part. And have been portrayed poorly. Our primarch has been made into a complete joke as well. The model itself and his rules are awesome, but the primarch's death is a joke.

1. Loss of Terminator sergeants isn't a big deal. Harder to fit such units in Drop Pods anyway.
2. If you're going to bother footslogging an HQ, you can do MUCH worse than Cal. S10 attacks with T6 along with the repair bonuses on top is nothing to sneeze at. He's no Chapter Master, but who is?
3. Fluff complaint and therefore I don't care as much.

S10 T6 is neat but look at what you lose. You lose the ability to take 2 good hq options in an iron hands army. And i would much rather have a biker. Even his special ability stinks 50 points is way too much. If you are using him as a motf you are doing something wrong. Top it off with poor mobility for an underwhelming choice. You are much better off with a generic hq than to run this overcosted thing. A terminator captain/chapter master makes a better footslogger than Cal. So does a motf if you put himm in something with av14 ironstone and 3 servitors. Achilles Landraider for instance.

Maybe loss of terminator sergeants isn't a big deal but it was part of what made Iron Hands different. And with the current rules for tac squads dropping a model wouldnt hurt much. I never outfit them with heavy weapons anyway. Id rather have them mobile.

I believe at one point Iron hands also had dread hqs too. And lets not forget how overcosted techmarines are. 50 points for a stock techmarine is 25 points too many (and the master of the forge is a little overcosted for what he has and does as well). the Flesh is weak is not a particularly great chapter tactic. The only time TFIW is good thing is if you are running a biker hq in a biker command squad with an apothecary and you have thunder hammer+the shield eternal or thunder hammer + lightning claw+ gorgon's chain.

And your not really caring about Iron Hands losing fluff really doesn't matter to me. There are many Oron Hands players who do care about the retcons and loss of fluff though. IMO the fluff is part of the crunch. What is a chapter about what rules reflect that chapter, how well do those rules capture the feel of the chapter is all related to crunch. I guess the flesh of weak kind of represents the crunch of them but not very well. maybe if it was 5+fnp or their 30k rule of inviolate armor maybe. I feel 30k does a MUCH better job of portraying Iron Hands. Not perfect but much better. Cyber familiars aren't terminator armor sergeants but they give a more bionic vibe to the army.

1. Two separate options that become more expensive compared to one guy that does both jobs of fulfilling footslogging beatstick and repairing stuff. That saves a slot for a Librarian or Chaplain if you like that sorta stuff. As I said, if you want to run an HQ on foot using Iron Hands Chapter Tactics, Val is probably the best choice. That's just how it works.
2. Tactical squads suck anyway because they can't take 2 Special Weapons, on top of not being as durable as Bikers. Then you have that little matter of not being able to use Rhinos or Razorbacks. If you want to Drop Pod something, there's better options.
3. Techmarines are only a little overcosted when you have them stock, yes, but consider the fact they have all the same options of Sergeants while being Independent Characters, they almost do that exact job of the Terminator sergeants you wanted. I'm not even tackling the HQ Dread thing because stock dreads aren't great compared to the special character ones, Ironclads, and the Forge World ones.
4. FNP on a 6 is better than nothing, not to mention this was already part of the fluff you loved so much. They all had Bionics, which let them stand back up after dying with a roll of 6. FNP is strictly better for the characters. IWND is simply the bee's knees.

If anything, Iron Hands players, like I am occasionally, should be joyous of this treatment.

Nocturus wrote:
I know the Forgeworld rules say Iron Snakes use Ultramarine chapter tactics, but I don't think that you can do the every squad has an apothicary, a special weapon and no Heavy weapon with any list can you?

Honestly I don't see Iron Snakes as taking Ultramarines tactics, they're more melee heavy then the Smurfs.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
I know the Forgeworld rules say Iron Snakes use Ultramarine chapter tactics, but I don't think that you can do the every squad has an apothicary, a special weapon and no Heavy weapon with any list can you?

Honestly I don't see Iron Snakes as taking Ultramarines tactics, they're more melee heavy then the Smurfs.

If you read graham McNeil's books, the Ultramarines are more melee heavy than most rule book depictions of them as well. What I was referring to was the squad organization of the iron snakes. Dan abnet describes each squad to consist of a sgt with a squad relic of some sort (a lightning claw in the case of the main character), a special weapon carrier, an apothecary, and 7 additional battle brothers. I don't think you can legally field an army like that with any of the current rules.

Noc

Why can't vet sarges take artificer? I would do it as it would be great for challenges.

the only thing lacking is an apocathary for each squad.

Nocturus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
I know the Forgeworld rules say Iron Snakes use Ultramarine chapter tactics, but I don't think that you can do the every squad has an apothicary, a special weapon and no Heavy weapon with any list can you?

Honestly I don't see Iron Snakes as taking Ultramarines tactics, they're more melee heavy then the Smurfs.

If you read graham McNeil's books, the Ultramarines are more melee heavy than most rule book depictions of them as well.

Those books fly in the face of most other fluff we have about the Ultramarines though. I much prefer Kyme's Ultramarines in Damnos.

Honestly ALL SM units tend to be more choppy in the fluff then they are in the game.