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Scale: (For The Average Fun Player)

1. Useless: So insanely underpowered that even the greatest tactical mind can't dig themselves out of the pre-formed hole. You will win 10% of games and only the direct intervention of whatever God you happen to believe in will win you a tournament.

2. Underpowered: Most units cost way more than they should and perform much worse than they should, it would take a tactical genius to win a game with one of these guys. You will win 25% of games.

3. Slightly Underpowered: Units are a little to costly and crappy, this army requires much more skill than most, but most people will be skilled enough to manage it. You will win 40% of games.

4. Balanced: Units are reasonably priced for what they are worth and perform reasonably as well. You're not going to be winning because of overpowered crunch or held back by underpowered crunch and it whether you will win depends entirely on your skill. How many games you will win is indefinite.

5. Slightly Overpowered: Units may cost too little or be too good for what they're worth, but there is still some strategy required. These codices suit less experienced and less skilled players who need a little support from their crunch as they progress. You will win 60% of games.

6. Overpowered: Units are way too cheap when compared to their stats, very little skill is needed to play these armies and you can rely almost solely on powerful crunch to win battles for you. You will win 75% of games.

7. Broken: Put simply, the average unit in this type of army costs as much as a guardsman, but has the stats of a carnifex. Literally no skill is required to play them, my 86 year old senile grandmother could play against you with this type of army and wipe you off the board. You will win 90% of games you play.

There is no cat 7
cat 6 - Eldar - Invisibility (this spell puts IOM up here - excluding DA) - FMC spam (nids daemons)
cat 5 - tau, GK, SM, SW, inqusition
cat 4 - AM, DA, BA, DE, Necrons
cat 3 - Orks, Nids(non FMC spam), CSM, The girls

Anything I left out it's cause I have no idea how it works.

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no cat 7
cat 6 - Eldar - Invisibility (this spell puts IOM up here - excluding DA) - FMC spam (nids daemons)
cat 5 - tau, GK, SM, SW, inqusition
cat 4 - AM, DA, BA, DE, Necrons
cat 3 - Orks, Nids(non FMC spam), CSM, The girls

Anything I left out it's cause I have no idea how it works.

Pretty much this

There is no category 7.
Category 6 - Eldar - Invisibility - FMC spam (nids daemons)
Category 5 - tau, SM, old Necrons
Category 4 - AM, GK, BA, SW, DE
Category 3 - DA, Orks, Nids(non FMC spam), CSM

More or less the same with some key changes

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no cat 7
cat 6 - Eldar - Invisibility (this spell puts IOM up here - excluding DA) - FMC spam (nids daemons)
cat 5 - tau, GK, SM, SW, inqusition
cat 4 - AM, DA, BA, DE, Necrons
cat 3 - Orks, Nids(non FMC spam), CSM, The girls

Anything I left out it's cause I have no idea how it works.

I would rank AM as cat 3, since 7th dropped.

How did 7th nerf IG?

DA, Orks and CSM are defenitely same tier.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no cat 7
cat 6 - Eldar - Invisibility (this spell puts IOM up here - excluding DA) - FMC spam (nids daemons)
cat 5 - tau, GK, SM, SW, inqusition
cat 4 - AM, DA, BA, DE, Necrons
cat 3 - Orks, Nids(non FMC spam), CSM, The girls

Anything I left out it's cause I have no idea how it works.

I would rank AM as cat 3, since 7th dropped.

Considered it but I think a few units keep them balanced. Armored sents, cheap and useful infantry with good transports, Manticores, punisher LR, and to some extent wyverns. If you restrict your lists to these options you can do pretty well even vs super cheesy lists. I borrow my friends and play against his space wolves and I am able to compete and he runs a lot of TWC. I think they are ballanced mainly because they a good shooting army in a shooting edition. Decent flyers too.

CSM is 3. Mostly okay, but some units are poorly balanced points-wise.

SGTPozy wrote:
How did 7th nerf IG?

Nerf on the vehicle damage table, which I know sounds weird comming from an IG player, but it is actually quite punishing for IG. AV14 meant that we weren't really prone to getting penned and having a few lascanons against the LRBT never really threatened us anyway, except for that one odd explosion. If the enemy dedicated AT, you'd be dead anyway, drop pod sternguard, assaulting AV10 rear, haywire and glancing to death are just as big as a threat to us now, as it was in 7th. On the other hand, IG have a lot of lascannons, which are now nerfed, although I can live with that. Our vets with 2-3 meltas got less reliable at killing the vehicles and when you disembark to get in range with those 3 meltaguns, you really need those precious shots to count for something. We have an excess of high S weapons, in form of missiles, tanks and artillery but many of them are now unable to explode anything other than open-topped vehicles and iconic AT weapons like Vanquisher, are now more like a slow hull point stripper instead of being the tank with the potential of 1 shotting high AV targets.

Invisibility meta renders all our precious blast weapons useless.

FMC got a buff from a less punishing grounding test.

Actually casting powers from the psyker you paid for, in order to buff what you want, has become extremely unreliable. Before, you could easily buff your blob squad and have another psyker in the back, out of LOS, buffing executioners/manticores/basilisks. Now, you're unable to cast prescience on a single unit with a fail rate of less than 50%, which won't leave you with enough warp dices for the other guy to cast his powers. Furthermore, now you're unable to have him in a safe transport and buff people safely.

Maelstrom Missions, although that's debatable since you can just play eternal war missions but my meta plays nothing else.

Quad-Gun got nerfed.

No area terrain for blobs or infantry in general.

The Priest got specified to use his own LD test for hymns and not just a generic LD test.

The 'nerfs' to IG you listed are nerfs to all armies in general.

Most armies were 'nerfed' by 7th for the very same reasons that you listed.

I'd say 5th edition is: 3 to 4.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is no cat 7
cat 6 - Eldar - Invisibility (this spell puts IOM up here - excluding DA) - FMC spam (nids daemons)
cat 5 - tau, GK, SM, SW, inqusition
cat 4 - AM, DA, BA, DE, Necrons
cat 3 - Orks, Nids(non FMC spam), CSM, The girls

Anything I left out it's cause I have no idea how it works.

I would rank Imperial Guard! as cat 3, since 7th dropped.

Considered it but I think a few units keep them balanced. Armored sents, cheap and useful infantry with good transports, Manticores, punisher LR, and to some extent wyverns. If you restrict your lists to these options you can do pretty well even vs super cheesy lists. I borrow my friends and play against his space wolves and I am able to compete and he runs a lot of TWC. I think they are ballanced mainly because they a good shooting army in a shooting edition. Decent flyers too.

I think that's more of a case of IG generally being very good against PA armies than anything else. Manticores have always been good, and certainly annoying against TWC, as even 1 fail is ID. This, paired with the fact that IG are very good at forcing loads of saves, as well as having a high amount of AP2 weaponry. I have to admit, I have no trouble against PA, except for that invisible Gravstar and DK spamming GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
The 'nerfs' to IG you listed are nerfs to all armies in general.

Most armies were 'nerfed' by 7th for the very same reasons that you listed.

Except skimmer armies got buffed immensely.

Except reliable psykers were the only thing that made blobs even remotely close to worth it.

Except almost all competetive armies have Bike/Jet Bike equivalents, as opposed to Rough Riders.

Except FMC armies can't be nerfed by a less punishing grounding test, that's a paradox

Except the vast majority of the superior firepower IG is able to bring, comes from blast weapons, so they are argueably the one most affect by this.

Except that the nerf to vehicle damage chart forces IG to bring more melta, which leaves them with less plasma to handle the excess of MC's.

With the number of formations, codex supplements, and different builds from each codex, I don't know that it's easy to rank these for the "average, fun player." Based on my own experience, the list is as follows:

7 - nil
6 - nil
5 - eldar, tau, space marines and most space marine variants
4 - orks, dark eldar, necrons, tyranids
3 - imperial guard, chaos space marines
2 - nil
1 - nil

I don't think any of the armies is necessarily weaker inherently, though maybe in a tournament setting it's a different story. The "balanced" tier 4 armies are the ones that have lots of usable builds; the tier 5 armies are balanced but have one or two auto-include units or builds that are clearly better than the herd; and the tier 3 armies only have a few builds or units that are balanced and are basically mandatory for having a decent shot at a fair game.

CSM codec is so useless it needs substantial aid from ia13 and so many of the other dataslates.

Everyone save the first reply is forgetting the sisters. I'd put Adepta Sororitas in either Cat 3 or 4.

I say Cat 3 because they don't have any new shinies - it's basically Witch Hunters with some pages torn out and a nerf to Faith Points (sorry, Acts of Faith).

However, I say Cat 4 because through BB with the Imperium you're able to get some new shinies.

Shrug. I personally like to play pureish armies, so if I do ally with sisters it's to get Leman Russ tanks, not Knights or Baneblades.

I wish the sisters had a superheavy.

 Filch wrote:
CSM codec is so useless it needs substantial aid from ia13 and so many of the other dataslates.

Hey there Filch!

AM are Cat 3 normally but FW content pushes them up into CAT 4/low CAT 5. Most of the Imperium is about half a grade/a full grade higher with Allies.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
AM are Cat 3 normally but FW content pushes them up into CAT 4/low CAT 5. Most of the Imperium is about half a grade/a full grade higher with Allies.

As a supplement to anything imperium IG are cat 5 allies, they can bring a lot to the table that other armies may lack and they can be very slot effiecent. They are some of the best allies in the armies of the imperium.

I don't know much about most of the armies but I'd say this about what I do know

Eldar 6
Tau 5
Orks, Space Marines, 4
CSM DA 'Nids 3

I know a little about the 5th ed Necron codex (My brother owns it, never really played against it or him)

But with the new Necron Codex coming out I just can't say anything until after I see it

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Everyone save the first reply is forgetting the sisters. I'd put Adepta Sororitas in either Cat 3 or 4.

I say Cat 3 because they don't have any new shinies - it's basically Witch Hunters with some pages torn out and a nerf to Faith Points (sorry, Acts of Faith).

However, I say Cat 4 because through BB with the Imperium you're able to get some new shinies.

Shrug. I personally like to play pureish armies, so if I do ally with sisters it's to get Leman Russ tanks, not Knights or Baneblades.

I wish the sisters had a superheavy.

By themselves, sisters get the short end no question. Mixing up the Inquisition+assassins+GK (just to get access to assault fliers)+Scions (essentially making the old Witch Hunters codex) and you've got some fun times. At least, that is what I keep telling myself. I missed blessed ammo and all the really unique stuff that made them stand out :(


I'm just waiting for the chance to throw Jacobus and a squad of Repentia into a StormRaven. Oh the lulz that will be had...

Cat 1: DA, SM Black Templars, Militarum Tempestus. Every FW special snowflake army in existence except Corsairs and maybe an extremely gimmicky Renegades list, which might go way up the tiers.

Cat 3: AM, CSM, Orks, Space Marines (non-white scars/centurion abuse)

Cat 4: Dark Eldar, BA, SW, non FMC abuse Nids. All other flavours of SM.

Cat 5: If anything like the 5th Ed Dex, Necrons are probably here. White Scars SM.

Cat 6/6.5: is Tau and Eldar for how easily they can pull off near effortless victories with Serpents, Riptides and gunlines, etc.

Bite me. Codex balance is broken and has been for a long time.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Cat 1: DA, SM Black Templars, Militarum Tempestus. Every FW special snowflake army in existence except Corsairs and maybe an extremely gimmicky Renegades list, which might go way up the tiers.

Cat 3: AM, CSM, Orks, Space Marines (non-white scars/centurion abuse)

Cat 4: Dark Eldar, BA, SW, non FMC abuse Nids. All other flavours of SM.

Cat 5: If anything like the 5th Ed Dex, Necrons are probably here. White Scars SM.

Cat 6/6.5: is Tau and Eldar for how easily they can pull off near effortless victories with Serpents, Riptides and gunlines, etc.

Bite me. Codex balance is broken and has been for a long time.

Dark Angels are far from cat one.

I don't think you read the op. Category one is for the literally useless ones. The three armies you listed are all underpowered, and I would even consider placing them to the second tier.
But claiming that it's basically impossible to win with them is nothing but over-dramatic whining.

And I don't get it. Since we're rating codices, I don't understand why have you broken the C:SM to different sections based on tactics.
This would become a long list if we were to take BA for cat 4, BA without DC to Cat 3, without Drop Pods to 2 etc.
The power level of the codex is the maximum output it can give, so if you feel that White Scars are cat 5, then Space Marines are cat 5. Period.

 soomemafia wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Cat 1: DA, SM Black Templars, Militarum Tempestus. Every FW special snowflake army in existence except Corsairs and maybe an extremely gimmicky Renegades list, which might go way up the tiers.

Cat 3: AM, CSM, Orks, Space Marines (non-white scars/centurion abuse)

Cat 4: Dark Eldar, BA, SW, non FMC abuse Nids. All other flavours of SM.

Cat 5: If anything like the 5th Ed Dex, Necrons are probably here. White Scars SM.

Cat 6/6.5: is Tau and Eldar for how easily they can pull off near effortless victories with Serpents, Riptides and gunlines, etc.

Bite me. Codex balance is broken and has been for a long time.

Dark Angels are far from cat one.

I don't think you read the op. Category one is for the literally useless ones. The three armies you listed are all underpowered, and I would even consider placing them to the second tier.
But claiming that it's basically impossible to win with them is nothing but over-dramatic whining.

And I don't get it. Since we're rating codices, I don't understand why have you broken the C:SM to different sections based on tactics.
This would become a long list if we were to take BA for cat 4, BA without DC to Cat 3, without Drop Pods to 2 etc.
The power level of the codex is the maximum output it can give, so if you feel that White Scars are cat 5, then Space Marines are cat 5. Period.

Agreed. DA are underpowered, but I would put them as Cat 3, 2 if you're running one of the worst lists. DA can still hang around well with LRs and PFGs, the problem seems to come with overpriced units and not having as much killing power. I would hardly call them useless.

Second, I would even put most standard SM lists at Cat 4. Sure, Ultramarines tactics or Iron Fists may not be great in terms of being OP, but they are still SM and have a large access to goodies.

 Zewrath wrote:
FMC got a buff from a less punishing grounding test.

This was balanced out by the need to sit on the ground for a turn before assaulting when switching from Swooping to Gliding, as well as being non-scoring while Swooping.

SOB/AS are Cat 4.

 soomemafia wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Cat 1: DA, SM Black Templars, Militarum Tempestus. Every FW special snowflake army in existence except Corsairs and maybe an extremely gimmicky Renegades list, which might go way up the tiers.

Cat 3: AM, CSM, Orks, Space Marines (non-white scars/centurion abuse)

Cat 4: Dark Eldar, BA, SW, non FMC abuse Nids. All other flavours of SM.

Cat 5: If anything like the 5th Ed Dex, Necrons are probably here. White Scars SM.

Cat 6/6.5: is Tau and Eldar for how easily they can pull off near effortless victories with Serpents, Riptides and gunlines, etc.

Bite me. Codex balance is broken and has been for a long time.

Dark Angels are far from cat one.

I don't think you read the op. Category one is for the literally useless ones. The three armies you listed are all underpowered, and I would even consider placing them to the second tier.
But claiming that it's basically impossible to win with them is nothing but over-dramatic whining.

And I don't get it. Since we're rating codices, I don't understand why have you broken the C:SM to different sections based on tactics.
This would become a long list if we were to take BA for cat 4, BA without DC to Cat 3, without Drop Pods to 2 etc.
The power level of the codex is the maximum output it can give, so if you feel that White Scars are cat 5, then Space Marines are cat 5. Period.

They're terrible armies that are borderline unplayable, auto-losing in some far-from-rare match ups. Sure, you can maybe squeeze one ridiculous gimmick list out of it that spams Land Raiders or something moronic, but for the vast majority of players they're useless. They're not even worth it for the divination drones anymore. For the average player who doesn't go for perfectly optimised and meticulously crafted lists, backed up with large amounts of experience, they're useless. Frankly, I would not be surprised if most BT/DA/MT players only win 1/10 games by this point, or don't play long enough to support the statistic.

Though your trivial, pointless complaints about C:SM rating segregation sound much like butthurt, I'll make it plain ; you're actively pretending non-competitive players don't exist with your line of thought by generalising the whole and sum of C:SM as being its two best extremely specific lists in White Scars and Centurions. A lot of people play BT, or Raven Guard, or Sallies, basically the weaker Marines.

It is entirely reasonable to segregate C:SM ratings into chapter tactics because most players will only take one chapter tactic play style. At least half of players will say they play their respective chapter instead of just Marines. You don't say I'm playing Hive Fleet Kraken or Tallarns or the Order of Our Martyred Lady. I'm rating Codexes as a whole, not just for their best list, because that is not representative of the overall quality of the Codex. My intentions, also reflected in the manner the OP was delivered "most units cost way more than they should etc etc" are not possible if the standard deviation in effectiveness in C:SM is ridiculously high as it is. There's also a big difference between "no Death Company" and "White Scars, so bikes instead of Tactical Marines" or "Raven Guard, so Rhinos instead of Drop Pods".

You also have to realise that it's going to be dependant on who and what you play against. If you play CSM or DA against a skilled player with a Quality tournament list, you really are going to see about a 10% win rate.

Just yesterday I watched a guy who's been playing BT for years have a game against a returning Eldar player who was playing his first game of 7th. The BT player is pretty good and the eldar player took a rather unoptimised list (Vipers, Illic, Dark Reapers, no WS, no Jetbikes, no WK) and the Eldar player still had the game in the bag by turn 2, and it was all over in Turn 4.

If Eldar, especially cheesey Eldar, is all you play against (and if you play in a tourney heavy meta, this is almost certainly the case), the stuff in Cat 3 might as well be cat1, because you will literally see a 9/1 split to the eldar player.

Just to add something new to the discussion, Imperial Knights are a difficult one to peg due to opposition army composition rather than codex, ranging from Cat 6 down to cat 2/3, but on average, I'd say they're about Cat 5. The AdLance is a solid 6 though.

In rough decending order IMHO:

cat 6 - Eldar, FMC spam ('Nids)
cat 5 - Tau, 'Crons*, IK, SM
cat 4 - Daemons, GK, BA, DE, SW, =I=, 'Nids, Orks
cat 3 - IG, CSM, DA, SoB, MT

Daemons + GK are verging on Cat 5 meta dependant while AM is verging on Cat 4 dependant on the current Meta.

* "Current" 'Crons are a bit too strong, I have a feeling that their new Codex will see them move to the upper tiers of Cat 4 though, dependant on wraith pricing.

New Cron Dex is shaping up to be Cat 6 Easy.

I would rank from top to bottom:
1st - Tau, any FMC list, Daemons (if they spam FMC, that would be invincible), Imperial Knights and Necron.
2nd- Eldar, Grey Knights, Space Marines (generic).
3rd - Dark Eldar, AM, Space Wolves, Chaos Space Marines.
4th - Any other Space Marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the original poster's categories, here is what it will look like:

Cat 7: Daemons, Tau, Tyranids, Imperial Knights and Necron.

Cat 6: Eldar, Grey Knights, Clan Raukaan.

Cat 5: Space Marines.

Cat 4: Dark Eldar, Space Wolves.

Cat 3: AM, Blood Angels, Inquisition, Chaos Space Marines.

Cat 2: Dark Angels.

Cat 1: None, I guess.