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I have a friend that is deciding what army to to begin with in 40k and he's tied between Eldar and Dark Eldar.

It just seems to be the opinion of everyone that Eldar is so strong right now and I have a much higher loss rate against Eldar compared to Dark Eldar.

To me it seems Eldar are just completely stronger all round, so I just want to know what exactly it is that Dark Eldar do better than Eldar?

Better models and harder to play which equals a more rewarding hobby experience.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
Better models and harder to play which equals a more rewarding hobby experience.

I get that, but what are they better at? nothing?

Breaking, they're much better at breaking and taking up lots of storage space.

My friend is playing DE and has borrowed my eldar codex to see about taking some eldar allies. I told him - "be careful or you might just end up taking eldar with some DE allies, then the DE will slowly start to disappear until you are left with nothing but Eldar."

Once he read the codex he gave it back to me and just said..."OMG they are too powerful, how can any one enjoy playing an army that is hands down better than everything else" I just said "if you want to win you gotta be cheesy sometimes."

So what it really comes down to with your buddy and there is nothing wrong with this. Does he like to win? or does he like to play his own way. It's not like DE can't win - they have a decent codex with good shooting options. Eldar win a lot more cause they get so many rules for free. Rending or AP2 on almost every weapon - free extra assault moves - free ignore cover guns on their transports - it really increases their chances.

 Xenomancers wrote:
My friend is playing DE and has borrowed my eldar codex to see about taking some eldar allies. I told him - "be careful or you might just end up taking eldar with some DE allies, then the DE will slowly start to disappear until you are left with nothing but Eldar."

Once he read the codex he gave it back to me and just said..."OMG they are too powerful, how can any one enjoy playing an army that is hands down better than everything else" I just said "if you want to win you gotta be cheesy sometimes."

So what it really comes down to with your buddy and there is nothing wrong with this. Does he like to win? or does he like to play his own way. It's not like DE can't win - they have a decent codex with good shooting options. Eldar win a lot more cause they get so many rules for free. Rending or AP2 on almost every weapon - free extra assault moves - free ignore cover guns on their transports - it really increases their chances.

I know this is off topic, but when I look at your profile pic, I can't help but think of an old hermit who talks about 40k in his old days.

What I dislike the most about the DE, is that they feel like a supplement for Eldars.

For me dark eldar stomp eldar and pretty much anything other than IG tank lines. trueborns with splinter cannons on splinter cannon venoms are like, 26 Poision(4) shots PER venom.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
My friend is playing DE and has borrowed my eldar codex to see about taking some eldar allies. I told him - "be careful or you might just end up taking eldar with some DE allies, then the DE will slowly start to disappear until you are left with nothing but Eldar."

Once he read the codex he gave it back to me and just said..."OMG they are too powerful, how can any one enjoy playing an army that is hands down better than everything else" I just said "if you want to win you gotta be cheesy sometimes."

So what it really comes down to with your buddy and there is nothing wrong with this. Does he like to win? or does he like to play his own way. It's not like DE can't win - they have a decent codex with good shooting options. Eldar win a lot more cause they get so many rules for free. Rending or AP2 on almost every weapon - free extra assault moves - free ignore cover guns on their transports - it really increases their chances.

I know this is off topic, but when I look at your profile pic, I can't help but think of an old hermit who talks about 40k in his old days.

What I dislike the most about the DE, is that they feel like a supplement for Eldars.

My profile pic is a character from kill bill vol ll played by Michael Parks - It's having it's desired effect if that's how you reacted to it lol.

Also I agree - DE are just an eldar supplement couldn't have said it better myself.

Dark Eldar have more interesting variations in the army. Wych Cults, Kabals, Covens, each one is full of units and has strengths and weaknesses. Eldar are very powerful, and I play Eldar with Dark Eldar allies, but there is nothing more fun than running a Speed Cult on Reavers. Eldar Jetbikes have a purpose but it all has to do with scoring, and frankly, that bores me. I like to get into the combat and bring something sharp to the table up close and personal, but that's the Tyranid player in me. Eldar do not have that option. Banshees are awful and Scorpions are iffy at best.

Yes, Eldar dominate 3/4ths of the game. Movement, Psychic and Shooting, but Dark Eldar have Movement and Assault with a very healthy dose of Shooting potential thanks to Dark Lances, Poison and Blasters all around. Some people prefer that to the harmony of an Eldar list. Since I don't spam units, I honestly get bored playing Eldar without the Dark Eldar.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
For me dark eldar stomp eldar and pretty much anything other than IG tank lines. trueborns with splinter cannons on splinter cannon venoms are like, 26 Poision(4) shots PER venom.

Wave serpents cough at venom and they go down. Poison is a pretty terrible option against eldar in general with that t3 on the majority of their units. Sure it's good vs wraithknights but thats about it. DE can sure dish it vs the eldar but the eldar can take it way better...have magic...and lots of ignore cover which is DE only form of defense. Eldar smoke DE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Dark Eldar have more interesting variations in the army. Wych Cults, Kabals, Covens, each one is full of units and has strengths and weaknesses. Eldar are very powerful, and I play Eldar with Dark Eldar allies, but there is nothing more fun than running a Speed Cult on Reavers. Eldar Jetbikes have a purpose but it all has to do with scoring, and frankly, that bores me. I like to get into the combat and bring something sharp to the table up close and personal, but that's the Tyranid player in me. Eldar do not have that option. Banshees are awful and Scorpions are iffy at best.

Yes, Eldar dominate 3/4ths of the game. Movement, Psychic and Shooting, but Dark Eldar have Movement and Assault with a very healthy dose of Shooting potential thanks to Dark Lances, Poison and Blasters all around. Some people prefer that to the harmony of an Eldar list. Since I don't spam units, I honestly get bored playing Eldar without the Dark Eldar.

eldar jet bikes are hands down better options - they kill more and are tougher...nuff said.

For me, it's that Dark Eldar are, well, dark. They get all the cool toys and sleek style that the Eldar have but without all the angst. If Eldar are the emo kid that sits by himself and wonders why he doesn't have any friends, Dark Eldar are his older twin brother that smokes cigarettes and rides a motorcycle without a helmet because he's a loose cannon. And he gets all the chicks.

But in all seriousness, there are a lot of similarities between the two armies. They very clearly draw upon a lot of the same ideas, but then get plenty of their own unique toys. To answer your question more specifically, look at the things that Dark Eldar have that Craftworld Eldar don't: Open-topped gunboats, 5+ FNP by turn 2 or 3 (depending on your HQ/formation choices), aircraft that people actually give a rat's ass about, a truly stupid amount of poison shooting which makes them doubly effective against MC's, Hq's that can buy a free no-scatter deepstrike, etc. I could go on, but the point is that Dark Eldar have a lot of tricks that the Eldar don't have. Craftworld Eldar are still objectively better, and can fill the niches that the unique DE stuff fills, but that's not the point. If you're looking for the highest winrate, pick Eldar. If you actually give a damn about the flavor of the army you're choosing, then pick whichever one actually suits you better. DE do plenty of things well, just because Eldar win more often statistically does not mean that you should always pick Eldar.

Ask your buddy what army's flavor, models and fluff he likes better and go with that. That's the most important thing. The codex on top will always fluctuate, and choosing one army over another just because they're winning more right now is not the way to go.


Dark Eldar are not an Eldar supplement. You shut your dirty mouth. They're a strong, independent army who don't need no allies. But seriously, they have their own fluff, models, backstory, and flavor. The only thing they share with Eldar these days is the Space Elf thing, the hover vehicles, and guns that fire little sharp bits.

 Xenomancers wrote:

eldar jet bikes are hands down better options - they kill more and are tougher...nuff said.

Except they're not and it's not. Eldar Jetbikes have a better Armor Save and are troops. Defensively they're better. One in three gets a S6 Cannon with 3 shots. Thrilling. Dark Eldar get a single S8 AP2 Blaster per 3 bikes to break open tanks. Poisoned weapons on the rest to knock down anything with a Toughness. D6 S6 Rending Hammer of Wrath strikes from 1 in 3 models and S4 Rending HoW from the rest. Two CCWs per model adds more attacks, Hit and Run adds more HoW chances. Offensively there is no contest.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

eldar jet bikes are hands down better options - they kill more and are tougher...nuff said.

Except they're not and it's not. Eldar Jetbikes have a better Armor Save and are troops. Defensively they're better. One in three gets a S6 Cannon with 3 shots. Thrilling. Dark Eldar get a single S8 AP2 Blaster per 3 bikes to break open tanks. Poisoned weapons on the rest to knock down anything with a Toughness. D6 S6 Rending Hammer of Wrath strikes from 1 in 3 models and S4 Rending HoW from the rest. Two CCWs per model adds more attacks, Hit and Run adds more HoW chances. Offensively there is no contest.

I think you underestimate the power of psuedo rending.

 Zewrath wrote:

What I dislike the most about the DE, is that they feel like a supplement for Eldars.

Basically this.

In terms of pure power, Eldar are leagues ahead. A couple of noteworthy examples:

- The Eldar dedicated transport is better-armed, better-armoured and cheaper than the DE dedicated tank.

- DE MCs are reasonably durable (T7, 3 wounds), range from not very strong to reasonably-strong (S5 or S7) but slow and lacking firepower. Eldar have a MC that is markedly more durable (T8, 6 wounds), but can also move 12" per turn, is S10 I5, and has 2 36" S10 AP2 guns that cause ID on 6s to wound.

Eldar are also better equipped for this edition in general (despite DE having the newer codex). They have many high-strength, multiple-shot, often TL weapons - perfect for taking out fliers, light vehicles and causing damage to a variety of other targets. DE, meanwhile, are stuck with single-shot Dark Lances - which are expensive and ineffective.


I think if you're playing DE, it has to be for one or more of these reasons:
- You like the models/modelling-opportunities more
- You prefer the fluff/flavour (personally, I like the mad-scientist Haemonculi)
- You prefer a more challenging playstyle

OP: if your friend is deciding now, a few things are to be considered:

Every codex that is going to come out (including a new Tau and Eldar) will be more like the v7 codexes, somewhat balanced.

So if it's about power play, it doesn't make sense to build an army of Eldar now and have it ready when the Wave Serpent gets the nerf bat.


The big difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar is that DE strike a lot harder and are even more made out of paper.

Also, DE have reasonable CC units whereas Eldar just suck at it.


With regards to gameplay, DE are even more mobile (most of their army can deep strike) and hard to play (Eldar are also much harder to play than Space Marines, mistakes are expensive).

They're like Eldar, just more extreme, and dark.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

eldar jet bikes are hands down better options - they kill more and are tougher...nuff said.

Except they're not and it's not. Eldar Jetbikes have a better Armor Save and are troops. Defensively they're better. One in three gets a S6 Cannon with 3 shots. Thrilling. Dark Eldar get a single S8 AP2 Blaster per 3 bikes to break open tanks. Poisoned weapons on the rest to knock down anything with a Toughness. D6 S6 Rending Hammer of Wrath strikes from 1 in 3 models and S4 Rending HoW from the rest. Two CCWs per model adds more attacks, Hit and Run adds more HoW chances. Offensively there is no contest.

I think you underestimate the power of psuedo rending.

I think you overestimate the power of pseudo rending.
Unlike rending, it does nothing to vehicles.

Reaver jetbikes are definitely better than Eldar jetbikes on the offensive.

In competitive play, I find that the only thing that pseudo rending does for me, is compensate the ridiculous cost of Guardians (yes, sometimes I spam bladestorm) or Dire Avengers or Warp Spiders.
But do these stupid Warp Spiders get AP1 on tanks ? NO feth YOU.

The only really crazy thing about Eldar is how some armies don't have any ignores cover weaponry.
So basically it has nothing to do with Eldar but whatever.

Why play DE over CE? Because Dark Eldar are Emo-Elf Sadomasochists! The models are cool and playing them gives you the opportunity to make lots of dirty jokes.

morgoth wrote:

The big difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar is that DE strike a lot harder and are even more made out of paper.

How do DE strike a lot harder?

morgoth wrote:

Also, DE have reasonable CC units whereas Eldar just suck at it.

Wraithknight says 'hi'.

morgoth wrote:
OP: if your friend is deciding now, a few things are to be considered:

Every codex that is going to come out (including a new Tau and Eldar) will be more like the v7 codexes, somewhat balanced.

So if it's about power play, it doesn't make sense to build an army of Eldar now and have it ready when the Wave Serpent gets the nerf bat.


The big difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar is that DE strike a lot harder and are even more made out of paper.

Also, DE have reasonable CC units whereas Eldar just suck at it.


With regards to gameplay, DE are even more mobile (most of their army can deep strike) and hard to play (Eldar are also much harder to play than Space Marines, mistakes are expensive).

They're like Eldar, just more extreme, and dark.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

eldar jet bikes are hands down better options - they kill more and are tougher...nuff said.

Except they're not and it's not. Eldar Jetbikes have a better Armor Save and are troops. Defensively they're better. One in three gets a S6 Cannon with 3 shots. Thrilling. Dark Eldar get a single S8 AP2 Blaster per 3 bikes to break open tanks. Poisoned weapons on the rest to knock down anything with a Toughness. D6 S6 Rending Hammer of Wrath strikes from 1 in 3 models and S4 Rending HoW from the rest. Two CCWs per model adds more attacks, Hit and Run adds more HoW chances. Offensively there is no contest.

I think you underestimate the power of psuedo rending.

I think you overestimate the power of pseudo rending.
Unlike rending, it does nothing to vehicles.

Reaver jetbikes are definitely better than Eldar jetbikes on the offensive.

In competitive play, I find that the only thing that pseudo rending does for me, is compensate the ridiculous cost of Guardians (yes, sometimes I spam bladestorm) or Dire Avengers or Warp Spiders.
But do these stupid Warp Spiders get AP1 on tanks ? NO feth YOU.

The only really crazy thing about Eldar is how some armies don't have any ignores cover weaponry.
So basically it has nothing to do with Eldar but whatever.

Did you just claim I over estimate pseudo rending and then go on to say that you spam guardians? Interesting. I'm building an Eldar army and I plan to do the same thing. 6 squad of gardians with star cannons on foot - jetbike cousel with double farseer all with singing spears and probably the rest of the points filled out with warp spiders and wraithknights or firedragons in wave serps. hows that going to perform?

Never thought I'd say these words but; I agree with Morgoth. There's no point picking an army based on the power of the army, because that could completely 180 by the time they get another codex. Army power yoyos all the time. He should pick the one he prefers model wise, fluff wise, thematically etc.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Did you just claim I over estimate pseudo rending and then go on to say that you spam guardians? Interesting. I'm building an Eldar army and I plan to do the same thing. 6 squad of gardians with star cannons on foot - jetbike cousel with double farseer all with singing spears and probably the rest of the points filled out with warp spiders and wraithknights or firedragons in wave serps. hows that going to perform?

I have tried spamming guardians because they cost 90 points instead of 65 for two times more shots and two times more bodies (albeit arguably without a save to speak of).
Not because they're awesome, just because they could be less of a waste - under some specific conditions - than the DA I buy to field my Wave Serpents.
In the best of cases, pseudo rending makes those troops worth their cost - unlikely though, they're still garbage S3T3 no chance in assault, no save to speak of and just a slightly better bolter (replace that by a minimum Tac squad with one melta and it's pure win in comparison).
The main reason I'm fielding guardians ? 10 fething bodies. 10x2" unit coherency, 10x1" base, that's 30" movement denial or bubble wrap, etc.
Because to me, the game happens in the movement phase.

Anyway, moving on.

Your list would be playable, but that many guardians on foot generally require an Avatar.
And Guardians on foot just suck balls. That's how it's going to perform against competitive lists.
WraithKnights are overhyped, one or two are a good thing though, S10AP1 comes in handy (ID T5), they eat tanks for breakfast but are afraid of dedicated CC units.
FireDragons in WaveSerpents tend to be the standard answer to "I've got no anti tank" but your army is probably more suited for bright lance spam and FD in WS aren't a good synergy at all. You should look into DE stuff if what you want is drop some melta up close.
Star cannons aren't that good either in my opinion, they lack target options.
The SeerStar has been severely nerfed but in a non-competitive environment it's surely playable.
Your list could be good-ish, I don't see it performing against competitive lists though.

Go with the army you like the fluff for.

CW Eldar are the hyperadvanced doomed ascetics with slick style, and super specialization.

DE Eldar are a sick society where everyone is out for personal gain, and enjoys the misery of others.

CW have an Apple-esque design philosophy, whereas DE have more of a heavy metal/darkweb style.

Yes, the Serpent is broken and the WK is amazing. Also, DE struggle in general with a lack of medium-high S shots.

That said, its not so broken.
Bikes, for instance:
Pseudorending on bikes gives less than one AP2 wound every *three rounds* of shooting. Cannon or Shurikat. DE bikes get one AP1/2 weapon for every 3 models.
Even with those rends, a Shuriken is just as good as Poison 4+ against anything t6+ with either a 2+5++ or 3+/-. Put the first in 4+ cover or the second in 6+, and poison wins easily. And at lower toughness, Shurikens don't pull far ahead, even before factoring in the much worse heavy weapon.
Then there is range. 12" vs 24" is a huge difference.
CW do win survivability, but lose killy heavily, even with blade storm factored in. Still better than they should be though.

DE do much more damage to GEQs and anything tougher than T4. They do more damage faster than Craftworlders. Glass cannon.

As for MCs, the Wraithlord would be the better comparison. T8 is awesome, but no FnP and only 3 wounds. Doesn't seem too off for me.

As for battle tank, DE don't really have one. They can put 3 DL on a light vehicle, but I wouldn't call that a tank. And definitely doesnt cost more than a kitted Serpent (which is definitely broken).

And transports. Cheapest CW transport is 115 naked. Cheapest DE transport is either a 55pt flimsy open topped platform with good shooting, or a 35pt WWP. CWers have nothing like either option. We need to invest more points in a transport than the squad itself (even 10man DAs). Getting infantry in place - shooty or choppy- is costly for CW. Add to that most CW infantry having substantially shorter range than most (a lot of 12", some 18", very little 24"+), and you have two very different armies.

This is one reason it looks like CW with DE allies so often. It costs CW so much to get their guys into position, but DE so little, that using DE to get CW guys into position is brutal.

So DE also win on transport, deployment, infantry range.

CW is broken. And stronger than DE. But they arent simply DE+1.

(CW do have some broken options that are anyone+1, but that isn't a DE-specific problem).

 ImAGeek wrote:
Never thought I'd say these words but; I agree with Morgoth. There's no point picking an army based on the power of the army, because that could completely 180 by the time they get another codex. Army power yoyos all the time. He should pick the one he prefers model wise, fluff wise, thematically etc.

Yeah, I'd be wary of selecting an army just because of its power level (unless you're the pay-to-win sort and have endless money to just throw at the strongest army at any given time).

I'd also be careful about selecting an army because of a core mechanic - as they can always be changed or removed too.

But, it does raise the question of how important power level is. I mean, it's all very well to say that you should pick an army based on other stuff, but if an army is weak (and liable to remain so for the foreseeable future), then that's something a player could easily get fed up with anyway. I imagine that, for many people, having nice models will be poor compensation if they're blown off the table before they can do anything.

I'm not saying that people should pick armies based on power level - just that I wouldn't ignore it either.

 vipoid wrote:

morgoth wrote:

The big difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar is that DE strike a lot harder and are even more made out of paper.

How do DE strike a lot harder?

Well, for the same number of points, the firepower you can get from Dark Eldar is amazing.
They're just even more glass and even more cannon.

For 120 points, you get 5 Scourges with 4 Heat Lances (S6AP1 Melta) with Deep Strike (Jump infantry), save 4+.
For 65 points, you get a dual cannon Venom with 12 shots of poison 4+, AV10.

 vipoid wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Also, DE have reasonable CC units whereas Eldar just suck at it.

Wraithknight says 'hi'.

TWC says hi.
Yes, Eldar suck at CC.

The WK is a monster against a punching ball (or vehicle) but he's not good at ultimate fighting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

CW have an Apple-esque design philosophy

That's just the most disgusting thing I've read today.

You should not learn how to play the game with regular eldar they are ridiculously hard to learn and will make it really hard to transition to any armies in the future. Dark eldar are much easier to learn and optimize for new players over regular eldar

hawkhaven667 wrote:
You should not learn how to play the game with regular eldar they are ridiculously hard to learn and will make it really hard to transition to any armies in the future. Dark eldar are much easier to learn and optimize for new players over regular eldar

No. Both are 'hard to learn'. If anything, DE are more so; they're even more fragile so mistakes are more costly.

 daBIGboss wrote:
I have a friend that is deciding what army to to begin with in 40k and he's tied between Eldar and Dark Eldar.

It just seems to be the opinion of everyone that Eldar is so strong right now and I have a much higher loss rate against Eldar compared to Dark Eldar.

To me it seems Eldar are just completely stronger all round, so I just want to know what exactly it is that Dark Eldar do better than Eldar?

I was in similar boat to your friend when I first discovered Dark Eldar. What made it worth it to me was the fluff of unrepentant decadence in the face of annihilation, some gorgeous models and the possibility to play basically what ever lists I want with nearly equal viability.

morgoth wrote:

Well, for the same number of points, the firepower you can get from Dark Eldar is amazing.
They're just even more glass and even more cannon.

For 120 points, you get 5 Scourges with 4 Heat Lances (S6AP1 Melta) with Deep Strike (Jump infantry), save 4+.
For 65 points, you get a dual cannon Venom with 12 shots of poison 4+, AV10.

With regard to Venoms, those 12 poison shots can't hurt vehicles and don't really amount to many actual wounds. They just look like a lot.

Scourges are a fair point, though getting their weapons into range requires either gambling with deep-strike or else a larger point investment by buying them a character with a WWP.

morgoth wrote:

TWC says hi.

So, if that's the standard, what do DE have that can match TWC?

Personally, I picked Eldar because they had the coolest miniatures by far (including Falcons and Swooping Hawks).

And that made 4th ed just fine, and 5th ed just fine, and the fact that they're very good in 7th ed is mostly a hindrance as people like to whine about it a lot more than try and adapt to it (I mean really, who the f* cares about having 47% chance of winning instead of 50).

As long as you're interested in the craft part of the hobby, that's where you'll spend most of your time so that should be the good part.

The rest is ephemeral so you'd have to change armies every six months or so if you only want to have a powerful army at all times.

Why not both?

 vipoid wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Well, for the same number of points, the firepower you can get from Dark Eldar is amazing.
They're just even more glass and even more cannon.

For 120 points, you get 5 Scourges with 4 Heat Lances (S6AP1 Melta) with Deep Strike (Jump infantry), save 4+.
For 65 points, you get a dual cannon Venom with 12 shots of poison 4+, AV10.

With regard to Venoms, those 12 poison shots can't hurt vehicles and don't really amount to many actual wounds. They just look like a lot.

That's a misconception.
You just have to use them against their intended target to discover how crazy good they are.
They're not as all-purpose as the Wave Serpent, but they're a hell of a lot better per point against Monstrous Creatures.

 vipoid wrote:

Scourges are a fair point, though getting their weapons into range requires either gambling with deep-strike or else a larger point investment by buying them a character with a WWP.

morgoth wrote:

TWC says hi.

So, if that's the standard, what do DE have that can match TWC?

In terms of brutality, I would think that 240 points of Reaver Jetbikes just outright smoke a Wraith Knight.
In terms of resilience, it's Dark Eldar so forget about it.