Switch Theme:

Imperial Knights should be Initiative 1  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in se
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






I... actually don't know. Help?

It feels like logic. An IK is big and heavy, and probably takes some time to swing his weapon. Why isn't it I1?

To Valhall! ~2800 points

Tutorials: Wet Palette | Painting Station
 
   
Made in au
Death-Dealing Devastator



Melbourne,Vic

A fighter jet is bigger and heavier than a car. Take a guess at which one moves faster.

The logic of 'big and heavy means slow' is flawed, because you're failing to account for what is driving the mass. Sure, if Knights are using the same motor systems as enhanced power armour (Centurions, for instance), then you would probably expect them to move slow-ish. But someone building a machine dedicated to squishing anything and everything in its path might sink time into creating motors and drives which enable it to move reasonably quickly.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Why aren't Dreadnaughts? Lower than I4 I buy, but the long slow powerful stroke aspect is simulated by the Stomp rules, which are I1 already.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why aren't Dreadnaughts? Lower than I4 I buy, but the long slow powerful stroke aspect is simulated by the Stomp rules, which are I1 already.


Aren't stomps ini2?
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 koooaei wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
Why aren't Dreadnaughts? Lower than I4 I buy, but the long slow powerful stroke aspect is simulated by the Stomp rules, which are I1 already.


Aren't stomps ini2?


Not in 7e, I can't speak to 6e.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Imperial Knights are basicly controled by plugging into someone's brain. thus they move basicly at the speed of thought. thus Init is understandable, although you could proably make a VERY good case for Init 3. although one of the horus Heresy stories notes that Knight families have basicly been bred for generations for fast reflexes.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in se
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






I... actually don't know. Help?

skolirvarden wrote:
A fighter jet is bigger and heavier than a car. Take a guess at which one moves faster.

The logic of 'big and heavy means slow' is flawed, because you're failing to account for what is driving the mass. Sure, if Knights are using the same motor systems as enhanced power armour (Centurions, for instance), then you would probably expect them to move slow-ish. But someone building a machine dedicated to squishing anything and everything in its path might sink time into creating motors and drives which enable it to move reasonably quickly.


But fighter jets don't have swords.

To Valhall! ~2800 points

Tutorials: Wet Palette | Painting Station
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






skolirvarden wrote:
A fighter jet is bigger and heavier than a car. Take a guess at which one moves faster.


The car, if you're talking about reaction time (what initiative represents) and changing direction rather than maximum straight-line speed. A car can slam on the brakes and make a sharp turn in a pretty small space, and you can react very quickly to a changing situation. A fighter jet traveling at 500+ mph has a turning radius measured in miles and has to carefully set up its maneuvers in advance. A 40k knight might be able to move fast in a straight line once it accelerates to full speed, but it's going to have a lot of inertia behind everything it does and therefore won't be able to react as quickly as a smaller and lighter opponent.

BrianDavion wrote:
Imperial Knights are basicly controled by plugging into someone's brain. thus they move basicly at the speed of thought. thus Init is understandable, although you could proably make a VERY good case for Init 3. although one of the horus Heresy stories notes that Knight families have basicly been bred for generations for fast reflexes.


Initiative represents more than how fast you can think. For example, weapons with an initiative penalty don't have it because they slow your brain down, they have it because they're heavy and clumsy weapons that can't react quickly. Similarly, a knight's pilot might be able to issue the "swing my sword" command directly from their brain, without pressing any buttons, but the sword is still a huge and heavy object with a lot of inertia. It's going to take time to get it moving fast enough to deliver an effective blow, and it's going to take time to change its swing to react to a moving target.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/30 09:19:24


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout






I see that you forgot to add a "0" behind i1.
Imperial Knights should be initiative 10, because it doesn't matter what you do. You're gonna get wrecked!


DR:80-S++G+M-B---I+Pw40k#10++D+A++++/cWD-R+++T(T)DM+
(Grey Knights 4500+) (Eldar 4000+ Pts) (Tyranids 3000 Pts) (Tau 3000 Pts) (Imperial Guard 3500 Pts) (Doom Eagles 3000 Pts) (Orks 3000+ Pts) (Necrons 2500 Pts) (Daemons 2000) (Sisters of Battle 2000) (2 Imperial Knights) 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Bristol, England

The initiative value (and other stats for that matter) is an abstraction/game mechanism and not purely related to speed, here's a few ideas:
Think how much longer the reach on a ik is,
The pilot has no real need to sort out his footwork or tripping on bodies/debris,
From his high point on the battlefield the driver will be able to predict threats/attacks coming far in advance and prepare accordingly,
Sensor arrays can predict enemy attack patterns,
The knight is more likely to land a significant 1st blow as enemies clamber over/around/underneath it looking for weaknesses.

Stuff like that. Thinking through things in this way will really help to bring the game to life a little more.


Edit oh yeah, and what Peregrine was talking about: Ass kissing and 'science' until 6:00, zoom neeeowwwrr from 6:00.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/01/30 09:51:20


Oli: Can I be an orc?
Everyone: No.
Oli: But it fits through the doors, Look! 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







 Matthew wrote:
skolirvarden wrote:
A fighter jet is bigger and heavier than a car. Take a guess at which one moves faster.

The logic of 'big and heavy means slow' is flawed, because you're failing to account for what is driving the mass. Sure, if Knights are using the same motor systems as enhanced power armour (Centurions, for instance), then you would probably expect them to move slow-ish. But someone building a machine dedicated to squishing anything and everything in its path might sink time into creating motors and drives which enable it to move reasonably quickly.


But fighter jets don't have swords.


Is that a challenge?

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in gb
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





I don't see the rationale as to why they are I4, they're only piloted by bog-standard humans after all.

Oh wait I do know. Piloting a giant space mecha with a chainsaw for a hand pumps up the metal to 11 and has been scientifically proven to increase reaction speeds by 33%. Silly me.

Death Korps of Krieg Siege Army 1500 
   
Made in se
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






I... actually don't know. Help?

 Quickjager wrote:
 Matthew wrote:
skolirvarden wrote:
A fighter jet is bigger and heavier than a car. Take a guess at which one moves faster.

The logic of 'big and heavy means slow' is flawed, because you're failing to account for what is driving the mass. Sure, if Knights are using the same motor systems as enhanced power armour (Centurions, for instance), then you would probably expect them to move slow-ish. But someone building a machine dedicated to squishing anything and everything in its path might sink time into creating motors and drives which enable it to move reasonably quickly.


But fighter jets don't have swords.


Is that a challenge?


Well, I'd like to see a challenge between two jet fighters carrying swords.

Yes.

To Valhall! ~2800 points

Tutorials: Wet Palette | Painting Station
 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







 Matthew wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
 Matthew wrote:
skolirvarden wrote:
A fighter jet is bigger and heavier than a car. Take a guess at which one moves faster.

The logic of 'big and heavy means slow' is flawed, because you're failing to account for what is driving the mass. Sure, if Knights are using the same motor systems as enhanced power armour (Centurions, for instance), then you would probably expect them to move slow-ish. But someone building a machine dedicated to squishing anything and everything in its path might sink time into creating motors and drives which enable it to move reasonably quickly.


But fighter jets don't have swords.


Is that a challenge?


Well, I'd like to see a challenge between two jet fighters carrying swords.

Yes.


I concede, my google-fu is not strong enough to break through either the Japanese swordsmen named Jet or the random sword Fighters. Planes also is inconclusive.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Daemonic Herald





 Matthew wrote:
It feels like logic. An IK is big and heavy, and probably takes some time to swing his weapon. Why isn't it I1?

Because it has hydraulics good enough to compensate for being big and heavy
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Bristol, England

Can't find real jets doing it but there are a few RC plane dogfights that involve crashing into each other?





Oli: Can I be an orc?
Everyone: No.
Oli: But it fits through the doors, Look! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






 Peregrine wrote:
skolirvarden wrote:
A fighter jet is bigger and heavier than a car. Take a guess at which one moves faster.


The car, if you're talking about reaction time (what initiative represents) and changing direction rather than maximum straight-line speed. A car can slam on the brakes and make a sharp turn in a pretty small space, and you can react very quickly to a changing situation. A fighter jet traveling at 500+ mph has a turning radius measured in miles and has to carefully set up its maneuvers in advance. A 40k knight might be able to move fast in a straight line once it accelerates to full speed, but it's going to have a lot of inertia behind everything it does and therefore won't be able to react as quickly as a smaller and lighter opponent.



Something else to consider, mechanisms can be added to compensate for the added inertia. A very simple way of considering this: A bigger, stronger, faster guy is better than a small, strong, fast guy

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/30 12:45:06


Age of Sigmar - It's sorta like a clogged toilet, where the muck crests over the rim and onto the floor. Somehow 'ground marines' were created from this...
 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

 Quickjager wrote:
 Matthew wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
 Matthew wrote:

But fighter jets don't have swords.


Is that a challenge?


Well, I'd like to see a challenge between two jet fighters carrying swords.

Yes.


I concede, my google-fu is not strong enough to break through either the Japanese swordsmen named Jet or the random sword Fighters. Planes also is inconclusive.


I'm shocked that this is the only picture I can find. You'd think that somewhere, someone would have stuck a gundam sword on a Valkyrie in gerwalk form for a laugh!




"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in fr
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Calixis sector / Screaming Vortex

I'd give them I3 (their pilots are just regular humans right?).
Otherwise, I'd make them a bit cheaper (say, 25 or 50pts) and make all of their attacks (not including stomp) I1, like for Titans: they're controlled by an entire crew of mind-linked people, and get the best tech the Imperium has, so why don't they hit before Knights?

CSM
Militarum Tempestus
Dark Angels (Deathwing)
Inquisition 
   
Made in ca
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





 Matthew wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
 Matthew wrote:
skolirvarden wrote:
A fighter jet is bigger and heavier than a car. Take a guess at which one moves faster.

The logic of 'big and heavy means slow' is flawed, because you're failing to account for what is driving the mass. Sure, if Knights are using the same motor systems as enhanced power armour (Centurions, for instance), then you would probably expect them to move slow-ish. But someone building a machine dedicated to squishing anything and everything in its path might sink time into creating motors and drives which enable it to move reasonably quickly.


But fighter jets don't have swords.


Is that a challenge?


Well, I'd like to see a challenge between two jet fighters carrying swords.

Yes.


Not exactly fighter jets, but...

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Glorious+nippon+steel+i+love+this+gif+now+that+it+s_7bedf8_5162667.gif
   
Made in be
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Belgium

skolirvarden wrote:
A fighter jet is bigger and heavier than a car. Take a guess at which one moves faster.

The logic of 'big and heavy means slow' is flawed, because you're failing to account for what is driving the mass. Sure, if Knights are using the same motor systems as enhanced power armour (Centurions, for instance), then you would probably expect them to move slow-ish. But someone building a machine dedicated to squishing anything and everything in its path might sink time into creating motors and drives which enable it to move reasonably quickly.


Yeaaaahhhh...no.

The Tech on wich the Knights and everything with Imperial stamped on it, is aeons old tech, that no one have a arse-rat clue on how it works and why it works, but as long has it works its good.

They think that the IA of their machine are actually Spirits...

And no matter what when you account in MAss, inertia, gravity and other factors, in no way a machine that size would be as fast in reaction time as a foot soldier.

Now versius other machines of his size categories, yes it might be as fast or faster.

Should have a * in place of Init, with a line saying Vs Non-superheavy/gargantuan Creatures models: fights at Init 1, Vs Super heavies and gargantuan Creatures; Figths at Init 4.

   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





To make IK balanced they need to be piloted by 2 Drift compatible pilots that have to take leadership test for every action such as moving, shooting, HoW, charging and Melee. That way there is a risk of failure but then IK would never be taken just like the unpredictable hel brute. I would rather pilot a Big O Megadeus with Manuel controls
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster





Yeah, I brought something similar up in another thread, although my idea was to make Unwieldy weapons not Unwieldy against super-heavies, that way if you're pitting super-heavy vs super-heavy, a Knight still moves faster than a Stompa.

The one that bothers me more is that even if I surround the thing with models hitting on the same or higher initiative, somehow they all hit its front armor.

"But If the Earth isn't flat, then how did Jabba chakka wookiee no Solo ho ho ho hoooooooo?" 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

Honestly, there is some precedent for super-heavies having low I.

Even the eldar revenant titan, with a "swiftness and smoothness that beggars belief" (from apoc description) has an I of 2.

Warhounds are I1. And of course stompas are I1.

In fact, I'm not aware of ANY other super heavy walkers that have an I bigger than 3. The knight's I4 is one of it's many, many strengths.


This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/02/02 17:27:07


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest







i thought titans were initiative 1 because they had so many minds needed to be on task to do something.

the knights seem to have a single-pilot thing on the go, i argue thats why the mechanicum are so intrested about technology from the knight worlds, cause their sheild tech is s#|+!
i'm inclined to give the imperial knight the benefit of the doubt - while i've been building mine i've noticed a lot of a certain circular shaped feature which is all over the body and legs; i recon they're the 'enhanced motion units' or whatever...
that said, they do have 'gravitic repulsor' tech in the grimdark, so all arguments about weight and mass can surely disappear now?...

i'm surprised no-one has brought comparison with the wraithknight or nemesis dreadknight yet.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I was just about to. Also, the revenant titan is all about overland speed, the phantom titan has an initiative of 3, so size doesn't really mean much in the initiative department. When making vehicles, the design team doesn't take initiative into account for the point totals. If something has a low i, they normally get other free bonuses to compensate. Orks get one attack in their profile for free, necrons get rules like the twin linking nearby allies for free, tau get the supporting fire rule. These are the tradeoffs, they don't give points back.

   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: