Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys, bit of an odd and maybe specific one here.

My reward for the most recent Red Box Games kickstarter pledge got sent over to Germany two days ago. I got a notice in the post from the German customs saying that I had to provide them with a receipt and proof that customs had been paid on the item. Now, I am not sure how to go about getting a receipt for a kickstarter pledge, or even sure how it interacts with customs law. Anyone had any experience with this? I don't really mind paying the customs fees if I had to, but can I? Or is the manufacturer supposed to? Anyone familiar with this sort of thing in Germany? My German is okay for conversations and simple stuff, but I am a bit worried about misunderstanding technical things in a discussion at the customs office (which is helpfully only open from 7.30 to 14.00 every weekday, ie. when I am in work). Reckon it would be okay if I just make it clear I am willing to pay whatever customs is owed?

Would really appreciate some help on this one, as they're going to send the stuff back after 14 days. (12 days now, actually.) Probably all my questions have simple answers but I thought that someone else on Dakka might have had a similar experience.

 Da Boss wrote:
Hi guys, bit of an odd and maybe specific one here.

My reward for the most recent Red Box Games kickstarter pledge got sent over to Germany two days ago. I got a notice in the post from the German customs saying that I had to provide them with a receipt and proof that customs had been paid on the item. Now, I am not sure how to go about getting a receipt for a kickstarter pledge, or even sure how it interacts with customs law. Anyone had any experience with this? I don't really mind paying the customs fees if I had to, but can I? Or is the manufacturer supposed to? Anyone familiar with this sort of thing in Germany? My German is okay for conversations and simple stuff, but I am a bit worried about misunderstanding technical things in a discussion at the customs office (which is helpfully only open from 7.30 to 14.00 every weekday, ie. when I am in work). Reckon it would be okay if I just make it clear I am willing to pay whatever customs is owed?

Would really appreciate some help on this one, as they're going to send the stuff back after 14 days. (12 days now, actually.) Probably all my questions have simple answers but I thought that someone else on Dakka might have had a similar experience.

Not sure about any Germany-specific quirks, but from a UK perspective, if you're ordering something yourself from outwith the EU it's your responsibility to fork over the VAT and any fees if they catch your package at the border. Businesses are only liable to pay if they're the ones doing the importing. I think you have the right of it; just inform them the customs has not been paid and that you're willing to do so, it should be reasonably simple after that(funny how interactions with governments always seem to get much easier after the point you've agreed to give them what they want eh ).

Yep, in the UK the buyer has to pay customs before they receive it, unless the shipping states otherwise.
I think its the same in Germany as well, not sure though.

Dig out a copy of your KS credit card recipt to show what you paid if that isn't clearly stated on the package

if you've got a pledge manager printout or similar probably worth printing that out too

German customs is the worst... no literally, the worst.

They take forever to clear, sometimes a month and then they charge you for everything under the sun. I had one customer tell me they charged them a tax based on the actual shipping costs from the US, not the product mind you, the shipping, in addition to the product.

Not sure if that is the case, but if it is, they are the only country I know of practicing this rather underhanded fee.

Sadly if we get taxed on incoming product here in the UK we also get taxed on the shipping costs

....it's a 'service' so therefore taxable

but our customs is more likely to take the values and costs the sending company puts down at face value which means we get our stuff faster than the Germans where the investigate everything

@OP, you might find this to be interesting reading:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/madoverlord/bubblegum-crisis-ultimate-edition-blu-ray-set/posts/1116416

Precision German Tax Engineering

The German Customs service was both precise (93% of backers got charged) and pedantic (81% of backers had to provide extra documentation). While the fees averaged about 21%, the extra efficiency meant that the average customs cost was $12.08.

Apparently, the difference between the Germans and the British is that the Germans take a pound of flesh from everyone, while the British take a kilo from every other person.

It's a very funny article, and the national character really shines through. Good stuff.


Also, Mark is correct on German Customs charging on freight:

First, in Germany we don't pay handling fees or other additional fees. Second, shipping is also subject to VAT.
0€ - 22€ - Customs Duty or VAT do not apply (free).
22,01€ - 150€ - Only VAT (19%) applies.
150€+ Customs Duty (*) and VAT (19%) have to be paid.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Sadly if we get taxed on incoming product here in the UK we also get taxed on the shipping costs

....it's a 'service' so therefore taxable

but our customs is more likely to take the values and costs the sending company puts down at face value which means we get our stuff faster than the Germans where the investigate everything

And then we get re-billed for delivery. However thats not customs, thats Royal Mail gouging. Its actually borderline illegal, but they are the ones with your goods.

 NoseGoblin wrote:
German customs is the worst... no literally, the worst.

They take forever to clear, sometimes a month and then they charge you for everything under the sun. I had one customer tell me they charged them a tax based on the actual shipping costs from the US, not the product mind you, the shipping, in addition to the product.

Not sure if that is the case, but if it is, they are the only country I know of practicing this rather underhanded fee.

Same here in Sweden. Import tax = 25% of the product+shipping, then a bit more for handling fees.

 NoseGoblin wrote:
German customs is the worst... no literally, the worst.

They take forever to clear, sometimes a month and then they charge you for everything under the sun. I had one customer tell me they charged them a tax based on the actual shipping costs from the US, not the product mind you, the shipping, in addition to the product.

Not sure if that is the case, but if it is, they are the only country I know of practicing this rather underhanded fee.

Australia does this as well. Luckily we have a high threshold, but not for much longer if our current PM and his big business buddies have their way...

I'm in the UK so subject to something being bought from outside the UK, I am liable to pay for all Duties and Taxes. For something I Bought. And this is where the issue becomes fuzzy for Kickstarters. Let me explain.

I donated money to a Kickstarter project based in the US. I donated money through Kickstarter to help the project succeed. This is the essence of Kickstarter. As I understand Kickstarters, you are not actually buying anything or pre-ordering anything, you are donating money to help a project succeed. As a 'thank you' for you donation, should the project succeed, the creator will send you an item (or whatever it is). Now, we all know that you purchase a pledge level to buy an item. But, the T&C's of Kickstarters written to the contract law, you are not buying anything, you are making a donation.

I had this argument with UK Customs over applying tax to my Kickstarter pledge, and as there was no value written on the box, how do you value you pledge? Basic Cost? Plus upgrades? Retail value?

Basically it came down to if I wanted my stuff, I had to pay the Import Duties. I could successfully argue my case in Court and potentially win, but the cost of doing this and the time is far in excess of the value of the Kickstarter.

 Da Boss wrote:
My German is okay for conversations and simple stuff, but I am a bit worried about misunderstanding technical things in a discussion at the customs office (which is helpfully only open from 7.30 to 14.00 every weekday, ie. when I am in work).

They send you a slip of paper. If you have either your credit card receit or you get a pro-forma invoice from Red Box (Tre Manor is here on the forum), you can just send everything back to them. They will clear it for you and if you have to pay anything, the postman will collect it. That way, you don't have to waste a whole day at the customs offiice (although, I have to say, as a life's experience, in some twilight-zone-kafkaeskysh way, it's an experience you'll probably never forget).

 TheSecretSquig wrote:
I'm in the UK so subject to something being bought from outside the UK, I am liable to pay for all Duties and Taxes. For something I Bought. And this is where the issue becomes fuzzy for Kickstarters. Let me explain.

I donated money to a Kickstarter project based in the US. I donated money through Kickstarter to help the project succeed. This is the essence of Kickstarter. As I understand Kickstarters, you are not actually buying anything or pre-ordering anything, you are donating money to help a project succeed. As a 'thank you' for you donation, should the project succeed, the creator will send you an item (or whatever it is). Now, we all know that you purchase a pledge level to buy an item. But, the T&C's of Kickstarters written to the contract law, you are not buying anything, you are making a donation.

I had this argument with UK Customs over applying tax to my Kickstarter pledge, and as there was no value written on the box, how do you value you pledge? Basic Cost? Plus upgrades? Retail value?

Basically it came down to if I wanted my stuff, I had to pay the Import Duties. I could successfully argue my case in Court and potentially win, but the cost of doing this and the time is far in excess of the value of the Kickstarter.

You wouldn't win. Government tax collectors are going to laugh at you and your acrobatic logic on why giving money to someone as a donation and getting a product in return 'for freeeeeee' is not the same as purchasing and why KS ToS overrules the countries laws. This is the same stuff when people ask for money as a 'gift' on eBay to avoid fees.

Everyone knows the answer... You have to show them if you paid duties or not. On KS items, you 'did not'. So show them the cost of the pledge and prepare to pay customs.

Or lose your item, and have fun in court. This is all about people trying to avoid their countries customs, not how to accurately determine what they should be paying.

nkelsch wrote:

You wouldn't win. Government tax collectors are going to laugh at you and your acrobatic logic on why giving money to someone as a donation and getting a product in return 'for freeeeeee' is not the same as purchasing and why KS ToS overrules the countries laws. This is the same stuff when people ask for money as a 'gift' on eBay to avoid fees.

For customs, it is actually irrelevant whether you've paid for something or not.
You have to pay it even if somebody sends you something as a gift. What you have to pay is the Einfuhrumsatzsteuer. Which is a tax on anything worth more than around 20 EUR.
The real custom-fee you only have to pay on certain items like alcohol, tobacco, but also clothes and bikes. The custom is to be paid if it's worth more than around 150 EUR.

Those two are not the same, but neither cares if something was sent as a gift. If in doubt, the customs guys will just eyeball what something might be worth.

Mutter wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

You wouldn't win. Government tax collectors are going to laugh at you and your acrobatic logic on why giving money to someone as a donation and getting a product in return 'for freeeeeee' is not the same as purchasing and why KS ToS overrules the countries laws. This is the same stuff when people ask for money as a 'gift' on eBay to avoid fees.

For customs, it is actually irrelevant whether you've paid for something or not.
You have to pay it even if somebody sends you something as a gift. What you have to pay is the Einfuhrumsatzsteuer. Which is a tax on anything worth more than around 20 EUR.
The real custom-fee you only have to pay on certain items like alcohol, tobacco, but also clothes and bikes. The custom is to be paid if it's worth more than around 150 EUR.

Those two are not the same, but neither cares if something was sent as a gift. If in doubt, the customs guys will just eyeball what something might be worth.

So basically if an item has 'worth' expect to pay customs? and you have one chance to show you already paid the tax via receipt. (which for KS, it wasn't paid.)

So you can either provide a value and pay, or let them guesstimate a value and pay.

The whole 'I donated to a Kickstarter and got a reward' doesn't actually protect you from anything it sounds like.

nkelsch wrote:

The whole 'I donated to a Kickstarter and got a reward' doesn't actually protect you from anything it sounds like.

Correct.
Only chance would be to get the guys who did the Kickstarter to hand out pro-forma invoices (which could contain any amount, really).
If I remember correctly, Zombicide did that for some people during Season 1 when there where lots of customs-hick-ups ...

Guys thanks so much for these responses, it's super helpful!

Mutter: Hmmm, I must have misunderstood what I was reading- I got the impression I had to go in person.

I might still go, but your description did not sound encouraging!

The Irish customs have never caught any package I've had sent like that AFAIK. Yet more national stereotyping at work, I wonder. When I worked at one of the Irish ports they were never there when the boats came in anyhow.

I had this for several kickstarters in the past. A few years ago it was really a mess (yes, Zombicide 1), but now German customs is aware of the concept of crowdfunding, especially kickstarter.
Just print your ks-receit and your creditcard receit and they can work with that quite fast. Paperwork is also not so complicated (for a German document ).
If you need some help let me know.

P.S. since 2013 our customs office even accepts debit cards and not only cash

Thanks again to all for your advice.

I got my package in the end, but had to pay 41 euros in duties and taxes on it! Phew! That is a lot. To be honest, makes me feel like the KS wasn't really worth it quite as much!

Glad it got sorted out

(those taxes always hurt when they ask you for them don't they... When Kingdom Death finally ships it's going to be so painfull....)

 Da Boss wrote:

The Irish customs have never caught any package I've had sent like that AFAIK. Yet more national stereotyping at work, I wonder. When I worked at one of the Irish ports they were never there when the boats came in anyhow.

They'll get you the odd time I've had customs charges on 2 KS but a lot more got through uncharged they can't check everything in detail so a quick glance at the customs declaration might let you off any further checks so you can be lucky or unlucky - size of parcel doesn't even come into it as one was large and one was small. I fully expect to get stung for KD:M and have €170 put aside for it (ouch!)

Someone mentioned getting the KS to put a nominal value on the package, they can but customs don't have to accept it they can challenge the value if they feel it's deliberately under declared.

 NoseGoblin wrote:
German customs is the worst... no literally, the worst.

They take forever to clear, sometimes a month and then they charge you for everything under the sun. I had one customer tell me they charged them a tax based on the actual shipping costs from the US, not the product mind you, the shipping, in addition to the product.

Not sure if that is the case, but if it is, they are the only country I know of practicing this rather underhanded fee.

The UK is the same, actually, and the tax free allowance is only about £18, and there is usually an £8 to £10 processing fee added too.

 DaveC wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
The Irish customs have never caught any package I've had sent like that AFAIK. Yet more national stereotyping at work, I wonder. When I worked at one of the Irish ports they were never there when the boats came in anyhow.

They'll get you the odd time

According to the article, Irish Customs were flagging 1/3 for extra duties.

It is really easy for a US based kickstarter to plan for this. Arrange european based fulfilment and ensure that they are liable for import VAT and duty. So customers don't get additional shocks.

It it really were that easy, then everybody would do it, and there wouldn't be any issues. Everything would be smooth and quick, and we'd know it by the results.

The reality is that, for most Americans, setting up European delivery isn't that easy. That's what available evidence seems to show.

Or in the case of some projects, the rest of the world doesn't matter to them.

It is easy. That doesn't mean everyone wants to do it or is aware of the processes. I am talking about Europe in general. A few locations in the EEA (Norway for example) will result in extra fees whatever is done.

In many cases the Kickstarters would rather push the "Surprise" costs to their customers. The perception of value is maintained then.

 Da Boss wrote:
Thanks again to all for your advice.

I got my package in the end, but had to pay 41 euros in duties and taxes on it! Phew! That is a lot. To be honest, makes me feel like the KS wasn't really worth it quite as much!

It's definitely an important factor.

Also, makes EU-based KS a lot more appealing for the fact that you won't get charged any extra. Speaking from the UK, the strong £ vs. Euro at the moment makes it a great time to order from the continent.