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So the new FAQ says that immobilized skimmers lose the jink special rule. Now, the question I have is if a vehicle jinks, then get's immobilized, does it still have to snap fire the next turn? Here's the rule:

Jink:
When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn.

So it seems pretty clear to me that you lose your 4+ cover save when you're immobilized as you lose the jink special rule. Does this also mean that a skimmer no longer has to fire snap shots?

Seeing as your models have already jinked, yes you would be firing snap shots the next round regardless if the test fails or not.

I would disagree. The requirement to fire snap shots is conditional on the model having the Jink rule.

"...all models in the unit with this special rule ... can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."

 insaniak wrote:
I would disagree. The requirement to fire snap shots is conditional on the model having the Jink rule.

"...all models in the unit with this special rule ... can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."

The restriction is til the end of the following turn and nothing takes that away once you Jink.

But it's a restriction that applies to models with the Jink rule.


So, when you go to fire with the model, is it a model that has the Jink rule? If not, then there is no reason for it to fire snap shots.

Another unintentional error from a poorly worded FAQ?

I would have to disagree with you Insaniak. The check is performed at the time of "Jink"ing not shooting.

If the model "jinks" then immediately the restriction to snapshooting is applied and lasts until the next shooting phase.

Why assume it was unintentional. They tried to evade, failed and were stopped. No idea what is making it difficult for them to aim the next time they shoot from a halted position.

The idea of snap firing after jinking probably has to do with the altered trajectory the vehicle is forced to make in the next turn. That doesn't matter if your no longer moving.

I agree GW doesn't write the tightest of rules but you guys are assuming intent here.

I think it's clear, once your stopped/immobile you no longer need to snap fire.

Wow, GW just won't let me put them Landspeeders on the table will they?

I used to actually like them too, now? Seems like such a convoluted mess of rules that I think I'll just fill my fast attack slot with something else. What are they gonna nerf next? I'll go buy three of those!

Which is why I phrased it as a question. With the poor wording of the FAQ in the first place it throws doubt on whether any results are intentional or not.

40k-noob wrote:
I would have to disagree with you Insaniak. The check is performed at the time of "Jink"ing not shooting.

If the model "jinks" then immediately the restriction to snapshooting is applied and lasts until the next shooting phase.

The effect of jinking is that all models with the Jink rule get a cover save and fire snap shots.

If the model doesn't have the Jink rule, there is no reason for those effects to apply.

To weigh in on the actual debate, I would play it like this.

A model jinks, therefore has to fire snap shots because it is in fact flying wildly about trying to avoid shots. JInk save is failed and the model becomes immobilized. Now, is that model still trying to avoid fire or is it unable to move?

If the result is an immobilized one then obviously the model can't move. If the result is a crew stunned/shaken ( whichever causes the model to be temporarily immobilized ) then I would say snap shots still apply. The reasoning is this, an immobilized result lasts the entire game, until repaired, the other is only temporary and so we can imagine the pilot still being able to move his craft a bit.

Play it like that. Immobilized result = no jink restrictions. Stunned/Shaken = jink restriction

 insaniak wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I would have to disagree with you Insaniak. The check is performed at the time of "Jink"ing not shooting.

If the model "jinks" then immediately the restriction to snapshooting is applied and lasts until the next shooting phase.

The effect of jinking is that all models with the Jink rule get a cover save and fire snap shots.

If the model doesn't have the Jink rule, there is no reason for those effects to apply.

You are mistaken in so much as when the restriction is applied.

The unit gets targeted by a shooting attack, player elects to Jink, immediately the restriction to snapshoot is applied to the model there is now a SNAPSHOOT bubble on the unit. The unit fails a cover and results in an immobilized result and thus loses Jink rule.

The following shooting phase, that same unit prepares to shoot, YOU DO NOT check for the "Jink" rule, you check if the Snapshot restriction is applied, which it is still on the unit.

Jink:
When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn.

From the Jink rule you will get both the cover save and the Snap Shot restriction once the player has decided to jink. As I read it once the vehicle has been immobilized it will still retain the cover save from jink and the Snap Shot restrictions until they both expire. in rounds following the vehicle will no longer have access to the Jink rule, unless it can remove the immobilized status.

40k-noob wrote:
The following shooting phase, that same unit prepares to shoot, YOU DO NOT check for the "Jink" rule, you check if the Snapshot restriction is applied, which it is still on the unit.

Yes, the Snap Shot restriction is on the unit... but it applies specifically to models with the Jink rule.

 insaniak wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
The following shooting phase, that same unit prepares to shoot, YOU DO NOT check for the "Jink" rule, you check if the Snapshot restriction is applied, which it is still on the unit.

Yes, the Snap Shot restriction is on the unit... but it applies specifically to models with the Jink rule.

That is also incorrect, it applies to models that "Jinked" or in other word to models that elected to take on the benefits of the cover save at the cost of having to snapshoot their next shooting phase.

It is not simply because they have the Jink rule.

the unit cannot gain the cover save and then NOT snapshoot because they became immobilized.

40k-noob wrote:
That is also incorrect, it applies to models that "Jinked" ...

"...all models in the unit with this special rule ... can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."


So no, it doesn't apply to models that 'Jinked'. It quite specifically applies to models with the special rule.

sigh

 insaniak wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
That is also incorrect, it applies to models that "Jinked" ...

"...all models in the unit with this special rule ... can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."


So no, it doesn't apply to models that 'Jinked'. It quite specifically applies to models with the special rule.

Which the model had when it invoked the rule and gained the restriction.

But doesn't have when you try to shoot with it.

The snap firing mechanic would apply with the save mechanic as well.

So when a vehicle is immobilised on the first shot it either looses it's save for the other shooting attacks?

The wording seems like the answer would be the same for both questions.

I don't think it has anything to do with losing a special rule, the benefit of being able to jink is balanced by only being able to fire snap shots the next turn, if it fails that's tough, it's part of the game you take a risk and sometimes it fails.

I'm with insaniak on this one. The special rule is that you gain a cover save until the end of the next movement phase and you fire snap shots until the end of the next shooting phase. If you lose the special rule you lose both effects, not just the one.

Either that or you keep both effects, but lose the ability to jink next turn, but that seems less likely.

Insaniak is 100% correct on this one.

 Kriswall wrote:
Insaniak is 100% correct on this one.

Agreed.

Snap Shot restriction applies to models with the Jink special rule and have elected to use the Jink cover save. Once immobilised the model may have elected to use the Jink cover save but loses the Jink special rule, thus there is no longer any Snap Shot restriction, and of course alongside that would lose the ability to use the Jink cover save against any subsequent shooting attacks.

Very straightforward.

So straightforward that none of you have shown any kind of permission to ignore the restriction invoked when you declared the Jink.

Fragile wrote:
So straightforward that none of you have shown any kind of permission to ignore the restriction invoked when you declared the Jink.

Insaniak explained this already:

 insaniak wrote:


"...all models in the unit with this special rule ... can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."


So no, it doesn't apply to models that 'Jinked'. It quite specifically applies to models with the special rule.

Fragile wrote:
So straightforward that none of you have shown any kind of permission to ignore the restriction invoked when you declared the Jink.

What restriction invoked when you declared the jink?

The rule says models with the special rule get a 4+ cover save until the end of the next movement phase and fire snap shots until the end of the next shooting phase. Either both effects get negated by becoming immobilised or neither do, I don't see any special wording that would allow the "Snap Shots" portion to remain while the "cover save" portion is negated.

I'm also with insaniak on this one. The snapfiring restriction is only on all models with the jink special rule.

Fragile wrote:
So straightforward that none of you have shown any kind of permission to ignore the restriction invoked when you declared the Jink.

That restriction requires the unit to have the Jink special rule.

Being immobilised, the unit no longer has the Jink special rule.

If the unit does not have the Jink special rule it cannot fulfill the requirement of the restriction to have the Jink special rule.

In short, no Jink special rule, no benefit or restriction.