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(Not including GK Or CSM).

It's not that hard. All you need to do is change the special rules into chapter tactics and cover special units and relics in supplements or dataslates. I'm confident that Blood Angels could be covered with dataslates, Dark Angels may need a supplements but could probably be covered by dataslates and Space Wolves would definitely need a supplement.

against, there's too many unique units in the DA BA and space wolf 'dexes. smooshing them together would result in something getting lost

gw consistently screws up dark angels, if they are part of the main codex
a. I won't have to wait nearly a decade for the next one
b. A supplement would easily cover the main dark Angel units and unique rules

That good enough reason for me

Definitely for. It would either be a big codex or some things would have to be cut, but there's no reason there should be that many books for one army, especially when Chaos, who's different factions are far more diverse, don't get the same. Also it would get rid of weird discrepancies between the different Marine armies.

I see no reason why BA & DA could not be merged with the main marine dex. They can still keep their flavor and unique models but actually gain the guff from the main dex.

I think Space Wolves and Grey Knights are too unique to be melded with the main dex. However I am biased as I run those two chapters!

Emphatically for.

The emphasis on increasing these chapters' "Special Snowflake" nature is the prime reason for the cheapening of their fluff and aesthetic. The wolf-wolf-murder-murder and Bloodliness of SW/BA in particular can be laid at the feet of "We must justify their seperate codexes" to the point where Blood Angels and Dark Angels, fluff-wise, Codex compliant chapters, feel as much like regular marines as Chaos, if not less so. It feels and looks absurd.

Even SW could be rolled in fair easily; yeah, all their units have different names, but in spite of being a non-compliant chapter, almost all their stuff are regular space marines with better/more flexibile rules. The only fundamental difference, mechanically, is the lack of organic sergeants and that ASM have scout statlines, and scouts have regular SM statlines. They feel more like a codex chapter these days than Blood Angels or Dark Angels, barring things like Wolf Wolfborn riding his giant hamster-lion-wolf with his wolf claws and wolf escort speaking wolf alongside, *shudder*, Murderfang.

They could keep pretty much all the special snowflakeness available at present in one book as the core units are so similar, and it'd result in at least one codex actually having decent value, and I wouldn't be overly upset if some of the dumber concepts were removed entirely with instructions to use said obscene models as their closest equivalent, with varying chapter-specific options to represent them (thunderwolf as bikes, for instance with access to storm shields).

But it'll never happen at this point. Only happened to Black Templars owing to a lack of sufficient snowflakeness, and losing nothing except choice of vows by being part of the main book, aside from the 4th ed fun stuff they still go to use for 5th that everyone lost.

The book would be the size of the rule book, but I'm for it. Would give more toys to everyone, and if they really don't want wolves to have Centurions, they can have a restriction like how Templars cant take librarians (example)

Da units

Deathwing terminators get rolled into normal terminators, with their deep strike abilities being rolled into chapter tactics. Deathwing Knight's flails are added into the assault terminator's repertoire. Command squads can take terminator armour.

(Alternatively, deathwing Knights can be a unique unit for blood Angels)

Ravenwing are space marine bikes. The entire squad can be upgraded to have plasma talons for x points. Rad grenade launchers join the special weapons list.

The special land speeders get rolled into the land speeder entry. Might make some of them more viable...

The Nephilim and seraphim can either be rolled up into one entry and allowed to choose between weapons more freely, or bloat the fast attack section a bit more.

Special characters stay in, like Black Templar.

BA:

Furiosos are rolled into the ironclad entry, with all upgrades and war gear added I to the ironclad entry.

Sanguinary guard are changed to a jump pack option for honor guard.

Death company are a unique entry for blood Angels, like crusader squads for Templars.

Sanguinary priests become a more generic apothecary selection any chapter can take.

Baals weapon options become upgrades to the standard predator.

All space marine rhino chassis vehicles can buy a fast upgrade.

All tactical squads can take heavy flamers. All assault marines can take melta guns. Hand flamers and infernus pistols are added into the wargear options.

Blood Angels psychic powers become part of their chapter tactics.

Special characters are kept.

SW (honestly, I feel they would lose the most flavour here, with their scout assault and bike troops, and marine statlline scouts...)

Thunderwolves are the unique unit for space wolves.

The planes are rolled into heavy support, anyone can use them.

Long fangs become devastator, drop down to four weapons.

tsctical squads are allowed to take two special weapons, and can buy a ccw for x points, or can exchange their bolt guns for free.

Wolf guard (veterans) made into one entry. Veterans with boltguns or combi weapons get specialist ammo, but you can mix and match close combat weapons and ranged weapons. Terminators would start with a power weapon for reduced points, but be able to upgrade to have the normal fists? Would interact weirdly with deathwing being rolled into the same entry...

Venerable dreadnoughts can upgrade to storm shields.

Rune weapons are upgrades for librarians for x points.

Special characters are the same.

Tempestus psychic powers are allowed to be take if someone takes space wolves or white scars chapter tactics.

(Break)

Honestly, a lot of flavour would be lost, and it would be tricky balancing 9 chapter tactics so they are viable and one isn't rediculously stacked compared to the others (unless they add restrictions with bonuses, ie the space wolf thing mentioned earlier).

Formations and detachments can be used liberally to represent and add rules that don't fit into the chapter tactics. Such as the +1 initiative on the Baal strike force. Would have to change some names, maybe having a deathwing army being a 'first company strike force', but since 7th dropped, all the codices being merged like that is more possible than ever, and they'd still be able to make it have a bit for everyone.

The book would almost double as a weapon, or a brick.

A lot of the 'flavour' that would be lost isn't really flavour though. It's just caricature. Things like SW riding giant wolves isn't flavour, it's because GW saw a quick buck and they have the word Wolf in their name. And even if you did want to keep it, it all fits somewhere. Thunderwolves could be an upgrade for bikers say. Sanguinary guard an upgrade for honour guard or vanguard vets. All the flavour added when the chapters got split just reads like a parody, and I'd be glad for that to be pared back.

Eh, like I said, sanguinary guard are just a jump pack upgrade for the honor guard.

Ideally they wouldn't squat anyone's models, so Thunderwolves need to stay in, but I don't think the why'd fit as a bike upgrade. If black Templar got a special snowflake unit in codex marines, I fogured it would t be a stretch for BA and SW atleast to have snowflakes.

I forgot femrisisn wolf squads. Maybe make them snowflake status aswell. Let characters with wolf tactics buy thunder wolf mounts... Etc.

Big SM fan but definitely for them all being rolled into one book or having 2 books: vanilla marines and other chapters in the next. Then both armies could have a few unique units.

I think GK should be kept separate though.

I used to be heavily against, but the last BA 'dex took a HUGE leap towards dulling their uniqueness down. I would not be surprised at all to find that my next dex is a sub chapter in a big marine book.

I won't like it, but I can at least see the logistics working now as opposed to before.

That being said, that book will still be the biggest 'dex by far.

And I'm sure there will be like, Dante and Astorath in the dex, and all the rest of the characters will be DLC. Because GW is literally run by Satan, or people with very similar moral compasses.

All marines should be in the same book.

Also one additional bonus is that if they do decide to fix something, like adjusting point values or stats of terminators (finally,) for example, all the marine variants would benefit immediately, instead of like when I played my BA for a year or more while they costed more than the core marines.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
But it'll never happen at this point. Only happened to Black Templars owing to a lack of sufficient snowflakeness, and losing nothing except choice of vows by being part of the main book, aside from the 4th ed fun stuff they still go to use for 5th that everyone lost.

The folding of the BT into the main Codex should probably work as a cautionary tale of what could happen though; gakky rules, loss of character, and a bunch of changed fluff that's controversial at best. It's not that it couldn't be done properly, it's that I wouldn't trust GW with it. I said as much before they folded the Templars, and look what happened.

I would like it, on one condition: No unit gets cut, lost, or folded into something else.

You have the 'main codex', the units available to everyone (all the non-unique stuff, and including the likes of TFC, LSS and Cents that some Chapters don't have at present). You then have sections for each Chapter, with some Chapters having multiple unique units or characters (Ultras, BA, DA, SW, BT), and the rest keep their current crop of SCs and some Chapter-specific Relics.

That way, nothing is lost, people who play multiple Marine armies only needs to buy one book (probably why GW won't do it), and no one can say they've lost out. This book would have to be about £40 by GW metrics, but it would almost be worth it.

 Paradigm wrote:
I would like it, on one condition: No unit gets cut, lost, or folded into something else.

You have the 'main codex', the units available to everyone (all the non-unique stuff, and including the likes of TFC, LSS and Cents that some Chapters don't have at present). You then have sections for each Chapter, with some Chapters having multiple unique units or characters (Ultras, BA, DA, SW, BT), and the rest keep their current crop of SCs and some Chapter-specific Relics.

That way, nothing is lost, people who play multiple Marine armies only needs to buy one book (probably why GW won't do it), and no one can say they've lost out. This book would have to be about £40 by GW metrics, but it would almost be worth it.

Nah, things like deathwing terminators, or sanguinary guard aren't so unique that they can't be represented by being folded into a base unit. Keep the diversity of choices they had, of course, but by folding weapon options and the likes into one unit means that games workshop can sell more plastic to more people.

No reason why the ultramarines player couldn't have a dreadnought librarian, or a blood Angels player having a Thunderfire Cannon.

There would be more options for everyone, and the only thing lost would be names. Space wolves can still call their librarians Rune Priests, and blood angels can still call their jump pack honor guard sanguinary guard. In the end, everyone still gains, and a few units whose fluff don't fit with any other chapters, such as death company or Thunderwolves, would be kept unique.

Not only would I be fine with it, I'd be thrilled if they did.

They won't, but its a nice dream.

As someone looking from the outside in with regards to chapter fluff/diversity, I can't help but feel their identities would be better served without the absurdity that is the new fluff/units the codices have to justify their snowflake existence.

For merging all but the Space Wolves who are just too different. There isn't enough difference in BA to justify more than a page or two of their special rules and units like the DC and Baals. DA the same, maybe four pages with their unique units, and have the special characters like in the current C:SM.

Col. Dash wrote:
For merging all but the Space Wolves who are just too different.

Marines in power armour with bolters who use rhinos and other vehicles based on the same chassis, supported by dreads, land raiders, boxy flyers, and other standard issue marine equipment, while using the same general squads and layouts (minor wargear differences aside) is too different from every other marine chapter?

No, Space Wolves could fit just fine. Frankly, it'd probably help their fluff so their less of werewolf vikings with a space marine theme, and more of a space marine army with a werewolf/viking theme.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I would like it, on one condition: No unit gets cut, lost, or folded into something else.

You have the 'main codex', the units available to everyone (all the non-unique stuff, and including the likes of TFC, LSS and Cents that some Chapters don't have at present). You then have sections for each Chapter, with some Chapters having multiple unique units or characters (Ultras, BA, DA, SW, BT), and the rest keep their current crop of SCs and some Chapter-specific Relics.

That way, nothing is lost, people who play multiple Marine armies only needs to buy one book (probably why GW won't do it), and no one can say they've lost out. This book would have to be about £40 by GW metrics, but it would almost be worth it.

Nah, things like deathwing terminators, or sanguinary guard aren't so unique that they can't be represented by being folded into a base unit. Keep the diversity of choices they had, of course, but by folding weapon options and the likes into one unit means that games workshop can sell more plastic to more people.

No reason why the ultramarines player couldn't have a dreadnought librarian, or a blood Angels player having a Thunderfire Cannon.

There would be more options for everyone, and the only thing lost would be names. Space wolves can still call their librarians Rune Priests, and blood angels can still call their jump pack honor guard sanguinary guard. In the end, everyone still gains, and a few units whose fluff don't fit with any other chapters, such as death company or Thunderwolves, would be kept unique.

But its ridiculous to roll things like Deathwing Terminators and Sanguinary Guard into other units when they have their own models. When you field Sanguinary Guard, GW doesn't want you to just field an honour guard with jump packs, they want you to buy the Sanguinary Guard kit. So I doubt they would ever just hide the Sanguinary Guard unit within the rules for Honour Guard.

If we're going to argue what would and wouldn't happen, the entire discussion would be over; GW would never roll the codices in together, period.

In the spirit of discussing rolling in as a theoretical possibility, it would also follow that the kits for Sang Guard and Deathwing would be purely aesthetic and follow the rules for basic termies and honour guard.

Id go with 2 books

Codex Marines and non Codex Marines

So you get to haev options such as riding beasts (thuderwolf cavalry) but also for other Chapters and to promote conversions.

It would stop the increasingly (IMO) silly attempts to make each Codex different usually be changing and (again IMO) overemphasing the often previously small differences.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I would like it, on one condition: No unit gets cut, lost, or folded into something else.

You have the 'main codex', the units available to everyone (all the non-unique stuff, and including the likes of TFC, LSS and Cents that some Chapters don't have at present). You then have sections for each Chapter, with some Chapters having multiple unique units or characters (Ultras, BA, DA, SW, BT), and the rest keep their current crop of SCs and some Chapter-specific Relics.

That way, nothing is lost, people who play multiple Marine armies only needs to buy one book (probably why GW won't do it), and no one can say they've lost out. This book would have to be about £40 by GW metrics, but it would almost be worth it.

Nah, things like deathwing terminators, or sanguinary guard aren't so unique that they can't be represented by being folded into a base unit. Keep the diversity of choices they had, of course, but by folding weapon options and the likes into one unit means that games workshop can sell more plastic to more people.

No reason why the ultramarines player couldn't have a dreadnought librarian, or a blood Angels player having a Thunderfire Cannon.

There would be more options for everyone, and the only thing lost would be names. Space wolves can still call their librarians Rune Priests, and blood angels can still call their jump pack honor guard sanguinary guard. In the end, everyone still gains, and a few units whose fluff don't fit with any other chapters, such as death company or Thunderwolves, would be kept unique.

But its ridiculous to roll things like Deathwing Terminators and Sanguinary Guard into other units when they have their own models. When you field Sanguinary Guard, GW doesn't want you to just field an honour guard with jump packs, they want you to buy the Sanguinary Guard kit. So I doubt they would ever just hide the Sanguinary Guard unit within the rules for Honour Guard.

Currently, the only GW made honor guard kit is laden in ultramarines iconography and was originally In The 4th edition marines codex as ultramarines honor guard. Sternguard veterans were originally tyrannic war veterans and ultramarines only.

If it's because of the name on the box, they can rename it honor guard with jump packs. I bet raven guard players would love more options. For sanguinary priests being stand alone apothecaries, well, they even sell apothecaries separately on the web Store!

At the end of the day, sanguinary guards are honor guard with jump packs. Grey hunters are tactical squads switch two special weapons and sometimes chai swords.

I'm against it. Bloat thickest codex with possibly three more and raise the price so I have to pay for rules of armies I don't even want to play?
No thanks.

 Blacksails wrote:
If we're going to argue what would and wouldn't happen, the entire discussion would be over; GW would never roll the codices in together, period.

In the spirit of discussing rolling in as a theoretical possibility, it would also follow that the kits for Sang Guard and Deathwing would be purely aesthetic and follow the rules for basic termies and honour guard.

I don't know enough about Deathwing, but the Sanguinary Guard kit has different equipment from Honour Guard because the unit itself is different from Honour Guard. They have different starting equipment, different upgrade options, no champion, no apothecary. It is actually a lot simpler to just let the unit have its own codex entry.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If we're going to argue what would and wouldn't happen, the entire discussion would be over; GW would never roll the codices in together, period.

In the spirit of discussing rolling in as a theoretical possibility, it would also follow that the kits for Sang Guard and Deathwing would be purely aesthetic and follow the rules for basic termies and honour guard.

I don't know enough about Deathwing, but the Sanguinary Guard kit has different equipment from Honour Guard because the unit itself is different from Honour Guard. They have different starting equipment, different upgrade options, no champion, no apothecary. It is actually a lot simpler to just let the unit have its own codex entry.

We are going to have to agree to disagree then. Less snowflake units and more options for everyone else, the better. Also, honor guard have no apothecary... Unless you mean honor guard not having a sanguinary priest of some kind.

Aren't glaives encarmine simply relic blades? They can make an axe variant, easy. Angelus boltguns vs boltgun/bolt pistol is another thing, I suppose.

It wouldn't take nearly as much work to merge them as you are suggesting.

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
If we're going to argue what would and wouldn't happen, the entire discussion would be over; GW would never roll the codices in together, period.

In the spirit of discussing rolling in as a theoretical possibility, it would also follow that the kits for Sang Guard and Deathwing would be purely aesthetic and follow the rules for basic termies and honour guard.

I don't know enough about Deathwing, but the Sanguinary Guard kit has different equipment from Honour Guard because the unit itself is different from Honour Guard. They have different starting equipment, different upgrade options, no champion, no apothecary. It is actually a lot simpler to just let the unit have its own codex entry.

We are going to have to agree to disagree then. Less snowflake units and more options for everyone else, the better. Also, honor guard have no apothecary... Unless you mean honor guard not having a sanguinary priest of some kind.

Aren't glaives encarmine simply relic blades? They can make an axe variant, easy. Angelus boltguns vs boltgun/bolt pistol is another thing, I suppose.

It wouldn't take nearly as much work to merge them as you are suggesting.

Apologies, I was thinking of the old Blood Angels Honour Guard (now Command Squad) that came with a Sanguinary Novitiate as well as a champion.

Glaives are worse than relic blades sadly, but they are always master-crafted. There is also Death Masks to think of.

But yes, overall we'll just have to agree to disagree. Logistically, it makes more sense to me for the unit to just have its own codex entry instead of putting in all these stipulations.

Ah yes, GW should reduce the flavour of the game and let it be so people don't have to buy another Codex to pla-

Oh, wait.

There is no problem with split up Chapter Codexes other than people bitching about their special-snowflake-cookie-cutter subfaction not getting such treatment, so everyone else should be shafted too, or perhaps, from a contextless perspective, to reduce the quantity of broken rules and Marines Dex +1 occurrences. But to be perfectly honest GW is releasing a boatload of rules, units and new dexes anyway all the time now so its hardly an exclusive thing. At least that Marines +1 effect means Marines of at least some flavour are still competitive the whole way through an edition.

People need to suck it up and understand this is the way its going to stay.

/thread

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Ah yes, GW should reduce the flavour of the game and let it be so people don't have to buy another Codex to pla-

Oh, wait.

There is no problem with split up Chapter Codexes other than people bitching about their specialsnowflake subfaction not getting such treatment, so everyone else should be shafted too, or perhaps, from a contextless perspective, to reduce the quantity of broken rules and Marines Dex +1 occurrences. But to be perfectly honest GW is releasing a boatload of rules, units and new dexes anyway all the time now so its hardly an exclusive thing. At least that Marines +1 effect means Marines of at least some flavour are still competitive the whole way through an edition.

People need to suck it up and understand this is the way its going to stay.

/thread

How many "special snowflake subfaction" Marine Chapters can you count? There is at least 3?

Is that the same "special snowflake subfaction" that means that minor differences between Codex organisation are blown and horribly bloated in order to justify new Codex's and models?

Reduce the Flavour: The fluff is being twisted and distorted to make them work with the retconned new models - wow that Space Wolf Sleigh is awesome.............not.

Flavour is fine - constantly producing slighty different marines or merely painting them a different colour and sticking a different name on them is not diversity.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

There is no problem with split up Chapter Codexes other than people bitching about their special-snowflake-cookie-cutter subfaction not getting such treatment, so everyone else should be shafted too

Man, I wish I had the ability to read minds and state these universal truths. It must be nice for you just know exactly what everyone is thinking all the time.

People need to suck it up and understand this is the way its going to stay.

I don't think anyone is assuming otherwise. This is a theoretical question. On a forum. Where people discuss things.

/thread

So edgy.